Add more service in NC

[mlhughes0522]

I know plans in the works to add 2 more Piedmont's maybe by early 2016

Carolinian/Piedmont service

80. 71. 72. 73 74. 75. 79. 76. 78 77

RGH10:13a. 6:30a. 1:05p 8:30a 3:05p 11:30a 4:50p8:05p10:05p 7:00p

Cyn 10:01a. 6:42a 12:52p 8:42a 2:52p 11:42a 5:03p7:54p9:52p. 7:12p

DNC 9:39a. 7:02a 12:32p 9:02a 2:32p 12:02p 5:24p7:34p9:32p 7:32p

BNC 9:01a. 7:40a 11:55a 9:40a 1:56p. 12:40p 6:01p6:56p8:56p 8:10p

GRO8:39a. 8:02a 11:34a10:02a 1:34p. 1:02p 6:32p6:34p 8:34p 8:30p

HPT 8:17a. 8:22a 11:14a10:22a 1:14p. 1:22p 6:48p6:14p 8:14p 8:50p

SAL 7:43a. 8:54a 10:41a10:54a 12:41p1:54p 7:24p5:41p 7:42p 9:22p

KAN 7:25a. 9:10a 10:25a11:10a 12:25p2:10p 7:41p 5:25p 7:25p 9:46p

CLT 7:00a 9:35a 10:00a11:35a 12:00p2:35p 8:10p 5:00p 7:00p 10:15p

Note

If amtrak 79 is 2 1/2hrs-3hrs late 77 will leave early at 5:00p then 79 at 6:50p or when 79 get to RGH

I know one area that need more amtrak service

Silver star/ NC star

92. 91. 102. 101. 104. 103

RMT 10:15a. 7:29p. 10:00p. 6:20a

WLN ------- ------- 9:40p. 6:40a

SSM 9:34a 8:20p 9:10p 7:10a

RGH 8:54a. 9:13p. 8:30p 7:25a. 1:00p. 3:30p

CYN 8:15a. 9:27p. 8:15p 7:40a. 12:45p. 3:42p

SOP. 7:06a. 10:39p. 7:07p 9:00a 11:37a. 4:55p

HAM 6:29a. 11:21p. 6:30p 9:37a 11:00a. 5:31p

NC Amtrak connections

92 fl/Ham-cyn 73 or 75 rgh-CLT

76 CLT- CYN / 91 CYN- ham/FL

101 RMT- RGH/ 73 rgh-CLT

76 CLT-RGH/ 102 rgh-RMT

74 CLT-RGH/103 RGH-Ham

Data by trainweb.org ridership I think 2013 ridership was little higher

Hamlet 4,826 (FY2012)

Southern Pines 7,092 (FY2012)

Cary 78,278 (FY2012) note Piedmont/Carolinian stop here

Raleigh 163,698 (FY2012) note Piedmont/Carolinian stop here

Selma 13,388 (FY2012) note silver star does not stop

Wilson 44,158 (FY2012) note silver star does not stop

Rocky mount 53,779 (FY2012) note silver meteor/palmetto/Carolinian

Note silver star/NC star connection to Piedmont trains that will help people get to RMT or CLT/ect and add stop to silver star at Selma.

 

[xyzzy]

Political situation at the NC General Assembly is not conducive to expanding the passenger rail program. Fortunately there were no suggestions that the program be cut back. Meanwhile improvements are continuing to track, and planning continues for a new station in Raleigh. Talk of a new station in Charlotte has stopped; rumors say NCDOT is reconsidering the site.

The third Piedmont (for a total of four Charlotte-Raleigh trains) will happen, but nobody can say when. My guess is 2017, and I doubt that you'll see five trains daily before 2020. After that, somebody will have to do something about Asheville and/or Wilmington.

 

[mlhughes0522]

Well they been talking and planning Asheville-Salisbury/Charlotte for years like I say 10-15years

I know they already some stations builded on that line

Western North Carolina

In March 2001, NCDOT adopted a phased plan to extend passenger rail service to Asheville and Western North Carolina. The plan includes renovating or building train stations that incorporate other community uses. The department continues to work with communities on station and rail safety improvements while working to identify funding to restore passenger rail service to Western NC.

O

Southeastern North Carolina

In May 2001, NCDOT released results of a feasibility study that indicated there is interest in passenger rail service to and from Wilmington. In July 2005, the department released the results of more detailed studies that identified costs and some needed improvements for re-establishing service to Southeastern North Carolina. The study recommended implementing passenger rail service from Raleigh to Wilmington via Fayetteville and Goldsboro in phases as funding becomes available. Other recommendations included investigating the possibility of commuter service between Selma and Raleigh and working with the State Ports to definite benefits and investments needed to re-establish freight service between Goldsboro and Wilmington.

But who knows? Not Been good for 10 years NC government/rail service

But they have brought more engines/coaches last acouple yrs

And running midday train

 

[afigg]

Political situation at the NC General Assembly is not conducive to expanding the passenger rail program. Fortunately there were no suggestions that the program be cut back. Meanwhile improvements are continuing to track, and planning continues for a new station in Raleigh. Talk of a new station in Charlotte has stopped; rumors say NCDOT is reconsidering the site.

The third Piedmont (for a total of four Charlotte-Raleigh trains) will happen, but nobody can say when. My guess is 2017, and I doubt that you'll see five trains daily before 2020. After that, somebody will have to do something about Asheville and/or Wilmington.

My understanding is that NC DOT is funded for 4 daily Piedmont trains. They received funding to refurb enough coach cars and locomotives to support 4 daily trains and the capacity upgrades will allow them to do so. It could be 2017 before they add a 3rd Piedmont and possibly later for a 4th Piedmont as they may want to wait for ridership to grow first.

As for the service expansions to Asheville or Wilmington, I think those will remain on hold as future expansions until the state legislature changes back to a more supportive political climate. That could take a few election cycles. The good news is that the $520 million in funded projects along with the new station and platform in Raleigh will be completed, so there will be an improved corridor to build on for future expansions when the public support is there.

 

[xyzzy]

No, they have funding to acquire the equipment but they don't have funding to operate the trains - that's the rub. In fact the Rail Division of NCDOT took a small budget hit in the budget just approved.

 

[John Bobinyec]

It's true, NCDOT has been "on track" for twenty years or so. The difficulty is the funding. The NC legislature lately has been micromanaging the railroad operations and budgets to the point where the current program could be dismantled.

What has the NC legislature done?

• Forced an increase in ticket prices to cover the cost of complementary bottled water on the Piedmonts. The Piedmonts don't have plumbing for potable water so the bottled water seems like a good solution.
• Is attempting to grab the profits that the NCRR earns. The North Carolina Railroad is owned by the state of NC. The profits are used to fund some of the track projects that are ongoing. The legislature wants to raid the profits and use them for other things.

Starting in the next fiscal year (October) there will be difficulty in continuing at the same level of service because of budget cuts.

So the general plan for the foreseeable future is to hunker down and try to keep things going, with no losses in service.

jb

 

[xyzzy]

What opened the door to questions about NCRR was the fact that not all income from the NS lease and almost none of the other income of NCRR is used to improve trackage for passenger train or freight trains. NCRR got itself into commercial real estate development and, in particular, the project near the Raleigh Amtrak station. People complained that NCRR was jumping the shark in terms of scope creep and, worse, as a non-profit was competing directly with private enterprise in a manner not related to public good. It's a classic case of a small misstep that triggered a disproportionate reaction, but NCRR should have known better.

I'm not defending the actions of the NC General Assembly, but I can see how somebody on Jones St got irritated.

 

[VentureForth]

They can save money by selling the two seats that the one "ambassador" takes up in business class on the Carolinian.

I'm all for the ambassadors, but when business class is completely full and the ONE empty seat is next to a guy who volunteered to give out crayons and coloring books to kids is quite annoying.

 

[George Harris]

A new Raleigh Station is a low cost item compared to a new Charlotte Station. The site that had been under consideration in Charlotte was the site of Southern's station until it was torn down and the stop moved to a small building near the yard, which is the current station and is overwhelmed by the current patronage. Where are the alternate sites under consideration?

The economic rationality of extending service to Asheville is questionalble. The route is S-L-O-W compared to parallel I-40. Average passenger train speed has never been above about 30 mph, best I recall. Tourist and sightseers would be the main users. Asheville and the western NC tourist industry loves the concept but has not been overenthusiastic about putting their money where their mouth is.

The status of reinstatement of the second main between Greensboro and Charlotte will be a big factor in additional trains as there are capacity issues, otherwise.

 

[VentureForth]

A new Raleigh Station is a low cost item compared to a new Charlotte Station. The site that had been under consideration in Charlotte was the site of Southern's station until it was torn down and the stop moved to a small building near the yard, which is the current station and is overwhelmed by the current patronage. Where are the alternate sites under consideration?

The new Charlotte station was supposed to be be near Trade Street as it was called the "Gateway Station" project.

However, all references to the Gateway Station project seem to be missing from the NCDOT and ncbytrain.org websites.

I take it back. Here is a webpage dedicated to RFQ's for the Gateway project, but nothing is dated newer than 2012.

 

[xyzzy]

Story goes that sites along the Blue Line Extension as far as Old Concord Road are being studied. One disadvantage with the Trade St site is that NCDOT had to abandon the expensive plan to rebuild the NS/CSX crossing near the site. A cynic would say this makes it easier to attain the 2 hr 30 minute target for Raleigh-Charlotte.

Personally I believe Wilmington will happen long before Asheville. The engineering to build/rebuild a 79 mph railroad all the way Selma-Goldsboro-Wilmington is easy, and there is hardly any freight traffic to deal with.

Everyone assumes that Charlotte-Greensboro will be 100% double-tracked before a fifth passenger train goes in. For that matter, Greensboro-Raleigh needs some siding fill-in's too.

 

[John Bobinyec]

The Charlotte station project totally fell apart. There is nothing going on with it right now.

jb

 

[Green Maned Lion]

A simple solution to funding problems (I know lots of businesses that not only do this but sometimes eventually refocus their business onto their ancillary funding source) is to devise other income channels. In otherwords, let's say I'm Amtrak, and I own Chicago Union Station. I don't get enough money to run my trains, so I start up a hotel (it's a decently complimentary business) in the largely unissued great hall building. The hotel then provides income (hopefully) to support my unprofitable train business.

It's a perfectly sensible idea- develop finding sources to decrease the need for public funding. Unfortunately, there's that schizophrenic socialize losses, privatize profit mantra. Remove all profitable functions from an agency and then let the tax paying poor cover it's resultant losses.

 

[George Harris]

Story goes that sites along the Blue Line Extension as far as Old Concord Road are being studied. One disadvantage with the Trade St site is that NCDOT had to abandon the expensive plan to rebuild the NS/CSX crossing near the site.

???? I thought rebuilt of the NS/CSX crossing as a grade separation was part of this new station concept from the beginning.

 

[xyzzy]

The NS/CSX crossing project was abandoned last September... partly because it was going to cost more than the expected $117M, partly because NCDOT diverted the money to other projects ($15M went to fill a funding gap for the new station in Raleigh), and partly because with the start of construction of the Blue Line Extension, people were beginning to re-think the Trade St site.

 

[me_little_me]

My opinion has always been that the Asheville line proposal was a scam from the beginning. Pay off a few politicians by rebuilding "stations" in their communities that they could use for other things and so that we suckers in WNC could say "Look, we are getting trains too!" but to build stations long before you have the rails fixed up and the equipment is just a scam. You don't need a fancy station up front so if the station doesn't get finished until it is close to being used, no big deal. The stations will need a NEW rebuild before WNC sees a passenger train.

 

[neroden]

Talk of a new station in Charlotte has stopped; rumors say NCDOT is reconsidering the site.

I do not believe those rumors, unless they mean moving the planned location a block or two.(1) NCDOT has bought up far too much property in the area (blocks and blocks and blocks).

(2) NCDOT is (right now) building their maintenance facility just to the south of the site; accordingly, all the trains have to cross CSX and go past the railyards just for the movements to the maintenance facility. At which point there is no downside to the site, since those were the downsides.

 

[neroden]

The NS/CSX crossing project was abandoned last September... partly because it was going to cost more than the expected $117M, partly because NCDOT diverted the money to other projects ($15M went to fill a funding gap for the new station in Raleigh), and partly because with the start of construction of the Blue Line Extension, people were beginning to re-think the Trade St site.

No, actually, your information is completely wrong.

The NS/CSX crossing project was originally ARRA-funded. Due to difficulty negotiating with ADM, it couldn't get done by the 2017 deadline for ARRA money. Therefore the ARRA money was moved to other projects such as Raleigh.

City of Charlotte still wants the station at the Trade St. location. They just don't know where to look for the money.

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/planning/facilities/gatewaystation/Pages/default.aspx

 

[xyzzy]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/09/30/3242666_passenger-rail-funds-will-speed.html?rh=1 refers to comments by Paul Worley that give the big picture. You can look at it as a deadline, or you can look at it as a financial sinkhole that everyone finally woke up to. The most recent estimate for P-5002 was $144M against the ARRA $117M. The project had been envisioned long before ARRA came along..

Downtown boosters in Charlotte haven't given up on the site, but it's dead for the foreseeable future. The fact that NCDOT holds the land doesn't mean anything. NCDOT owns land for a station in downtown Wilmington too, and they're content to sit on it for 20 or 30 years. Or for that matter, the state owns hundreds of acres inside Raleigh just for a rainy day.

NCDOT could put its new yard anywhere. Once the passengers are off the train, it doesn't matter how long it takes to get to the yard. Look at Raleigh as an example.

 

[VentureForth]

A simple solution to funding problems (I know lots of businesses that not only do this but sometimes eventually refocus their business onto their ancillary funding source) is to devise other income channels. In otherwords, let's say I'm Amtrak, and I own Chicago Union Station. I don't get enough money to run my trains, so I start up a hotel (it's a decently complimentary business) in the largely unissued great hall building. The hotel then provides income (hopefully) to support my unprofitable train business.

It's a perfectly sensible idea- develop finding sources to decrease the need for public funding. Unfortunately, there's that schizophrenic socialize losses, privatize profit mantra. Remove all profitable functions from an agency and then let the tax paying poor cover it's resultant losses.

That's the business model Japan has had for nearly 30 years. I don't know why we don't get that here. Oh - perhaps to your second point. Amtrak only controls the railroad. With some exceptions, they don't own most of the stations, therefore can't collect any sort of revenue from them.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I know that. I wasn't proposing a specific idea, just a general concept.

 

[VentureForth]

I know you know that. Just point out to others that it's a good general concept that others have succeeded at and Amtrak has failed to capitalize on.

 

[Palmland]

While the current Charlotte station will never make the list of buildings worthy of historic preservation, I think it could be enhanced to handle Piedmont service at far less money than a new one. The missing link would be an extension of either light rail or the new streetcar line to city center for the business travelers..

After all, in the early 60's when it was built the station handled the Crescent, Piedmont, Peach Queen, Southerner, Augusta Special, and a nameless local to Washington. Also the NS intermodal site across from the station has been vacated (a new one near the airport) and I suspect the adjoining SRY/NS offices are underutilized.

 

[Mike1960]

Political situation at the NC General Assembly is not conducive to expanding the passenger rail program.

Political situation at the NC General Assembly is not conducive to logic and common sense.

 

[pr4pr]

For train travel in NC, see "North Carolina By Rail" by David Robinson, softcover book available at lulu.com or amazon.com

Where to go and what to see on a one day excursion from most places along the Piedmont corridor.