Amtrak: an "admirable passenger railway model"

[eagle628]

http://www.thetelegram.com/Opinion/Columns/2011-04-09/article-2414580/America-knows-how-to-do-it-right/1

An "efficient and inexpensive people-mover" and an "admirable passenger railway model" are not ways I would have chosen to describe Amtrak, at least not at present, but if an average rider has such a nice impression, who am I to complain?

 

[railiner]

http://www.thetelegram.com/Opinion/Columns/2011-04-09/article-2414580/America-knows-how-to-do-it-right/1

An "efficient and inexpensive people-mover" and an "admirable passenger railway model" are not ways I would have chosen to describe Amtrak, at least not at present, but if an average rider has such a nice impression, who am I to complain?

The scenario the article mentioned sounded all too familiar to veteran Amtrak riders.

One mistake the author stated was about America looking North to Canada to model its national passenger train network---it was the other way around...Amtrak is older than VIA is.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak is not modeled on Via. Amtrak is a legitimate transportation provider. Via is a national embarrassment for Canada.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Amtrak is not modeled on Via. Amtrak is a legitimate transportation provider. Via is a national embarrassment for Canada.

Via really is in the same boat as Amtrak. Really, it's basically the same thing.

Except they like using Budd's old cars and they don't have that stupid 79 mph rule.

Other than that, it's stupid when Americans get envious of Canadians.

THEY'RE JUST LIKE US!!!

Eh?

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Amtrak is not modeled on Via. Amtrak is a legitimate transportation provider. Via is a national embarrassment for Canada.

For a statement like that.....as I’ve said before.....you really have no concept of the service VIA provides:

VIA carried 4.4 million passengers in 2010 and like Amtrak these would be mostly Canadians: individuals, students and business people actually using the trains for basic transportation. VIA is benefitting more Canadians than Amtrak does Americans......On a per capita basis (the US has about 10 times the population of Canada) to equal the density of passenger train usage in Canada, Amtrak would have had to carry over 44 million passengers.....or about a third more than the 28.7 million they did carry.

Sure the "Canadian" could be considered a tourist train but you also have to look at the benefits it provides in the communities it serves. Think of the $$$$ being left in places like Jasper and it also provides access to remote locations such as First Nation Communities with no other means of transportation.

And the "Ocean".....it covers a distance similar to the New York – Chicago "Lakeshore", serving a much smaller population: Halifax 400,000 and Montreal 3.7 million......but it can still fill 5 sleepers each way most nights and up to 10 sleepers in the summer. It runs 6/days a week.....Ottawa dictates the schedule, not VIA. And those are not Tourists on the platform at Bathurst, Campbellton or Amqui at midnight.

Canada is a big country but the population is located mostly within a couple of hundred miles of the US border.......there is really no need for several passenger train routes across the country. Take the Ontario – Manitoba border for example.....between Minnesota and as far north as you want to go.....there is but one two lane highway, a single CNR track and a single CPR track. There is nothing else crossing this line linking eastern and western Canada.

 

[TVRM610]

Amtrak is not modeled on Via. Amtrak is a legitimate transportation provider. Via is a national embarrassment for Canada.

Via really is in the same boat as Amtrak. Really, it's basically the same thing.

Except they like using Budd's old cars and they don't have that stupid 79 mph rule.

Oh I know.. "stupid" safety rules. They are so silly. hboy:

I agree with the Subject Line, Amtrak is highly admirable as a passenger railway model. They operate at least half a dozen corridors extremely well. In addition, they link their corridors with long distance trains. And they do all of this with an extremely small (by international comparisons) budget.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

And the "Ocean".....it covers a distance similar to the New York – Chicago "Lakeshore", serving a much smaller population: Halifax 400,000 and Montreal 3.7 million......but it can still fill 5 sleepers each way most nights and up to 10 sleepers in the summer. It runs 6/days a week.....Ottawa dictates the schedule, not VIA. And those are not Tourists on the platform at Bathurst, Campbellton or Amqui at midnight.

Reading this makes me glad Washington doesn't dictate every aspect of Amtrak's service. It would be a lot worse that it is now. All Amtrak needs to do is get the money then run the trains as best they can.

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

Amtrak is not modeled on Via. Amtrak is a legitimate transportation provider. Via is a national embarrassment for Canada.

Care to elaborate?

 

[TVRM610]

The Canadian is operated more like a tourist train than legit

Transit. While it does serve as transportation for some, I think almost everyone agrees it's pretty much a tourist train first and foremost. Other trains in the system are more standard passenger transit.

My view is pretty much in the middle between GML and NS VIA Fan. I feel like VIA is ok for what it is, but I think it's overhyped sometimes. I've never ridden via due to to the steep prices.

Amtrak is not modeled on Via. Amtrak is a legitimate transportation provider. Via is a national embarrassment for Canada.

Care to elaborate?

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Oh I know.. "stupid" safety rules. They are so silly. hboy:

Via rail trains can go triple digets with there p42s and f40 fleet without cab signals why can't we besides the FRA thing. Why do we need PTC and all that stuff when canada doesn't use it and gets along just fine.

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

Oh I know.. "stupid" safety rules. They are so silly. hboy:

Via rail trains can go triple digets with there p42s and f40 fleet without cab signals why can't we besides the FRA thing. Why do we need PTC and all that stuff when canada doesn't use it and gets along just fine.

and the Canadian gets up past 80 across the prairie.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Oh I know.. "stupid" safety rules. They are so silly. hboy:

Via rail trains can go triple digets with there p42s and f40 fleet without cab signals why can't we besides the FRA thing. Why do we need PTC and all that stuff when canada doesn't use it and gets along just fine.

and the Canadian gets up past 80 across the prairie.

Yeah but the corridor trains can get up to 100MPH

 

[NS VIA Fan]

...................I've never ridden via due to to the steep prices.

Have you ever looked at the “Express Deals” link on VIA’s Home Page? (updated regularly)

http://www.viarail.ca/en/deals

For example: A Sleeper Cabin for One (or Roomette) on the Canadian from Vancouver to Toronto on April 20 is $514 instead $1543. That includes meals for four days + Domes! Sure the fares on the Canadian are high as VIA is selling the experience and amenities besides basic transportation. If you don’t want to pay it, the next person will. (I can stay at a Super 8 but if I want the amenities, it’s the Westin or Hilton)

And I’ve said it before. If you just want to experience a classic Budd Stainless-Steel train complete with a Dome Car and the same equipment you would ride on the Canadian (minus the “Park” observation)......and at a fraction of the fare!...... it's VIA's “Chaleur” (now just called the Montreal-Gaspe train) and you can easily do a round-trip in a long weekend. It departs Montreal on Wed, Fri. and Sun evenings......arrives into Gaspe at noon the following day, makes a quick turn and is back in Montreal the following morning. That’s nearly 2100 kms of Dome riding and the Round trip fare in a Sleeper is $524 + tax (meals not included)

VIA’s Ocean between Halifax and Montreal covers a similar distances to Amtrak’s Lakeshore. I just went to the ReserVIA site (and not even using Express Deals) For tomorrow night, I can book single occupancy of a Deluxe Double Bedroom (with private shower in room) for $286 + tax (meals are extra so add say $30 dollars).

Tomorrow on the Lakeshore, a similar trip would cost me $536.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Yeah but the corridor trains can get up to 100MPH

Yes the corridor trains are the fastest.......up to 100mph mostly on CN owned track but also on several stretches of VIA owned track too.

Amtrak’s Acela may have some impressive bursts of speed through Massachusetts and Rhode Island......but in the same length of time the Acela takes between Boston and New York: (3 1\2 hours).....VIA #57 a nearly all stops local in the corridor, using 55 year old rebuilt Budd equipment (some of it even xAmtrak Heritage cars) will cover the same distance and VIA's fastest train will have gone 50 miles further down the track.

There is a section of CP track between Smiths Falls and Brockville (used by Ottawa trains) and I’ve always found it exhilarating to be rolling along this line at 95mph with the F40s horn constantly sounding for the numerous grade-crossing. This is “dark” (un-signaled) track but is currently being upgraded with signals.

And the long-distance trains are allowed high speed operation in the corridor too. The Ocean and Chaleur will be in the 95mph range west of Charny (Quebec City)..... Always fun to watch as we overtake everything over on parallel AutoRoute 20!

I’ve also been on the Canadian on the flat Saskatchewan prairie and clocked it in the 85mph range with my GPS. .......must be an impressive sight from line-side......25+ cars of perfectly matched Budd Stainless Steel and Domes!

>>>>>>>>>>>>

As a side note: Canada’s railways still use MPH and Mileposts.....not Kilometers.

 

[TVRM610]

Ok... Now I might take the Canadian! I'll have to check those deals regularly; did not know about them. Thanks!

As for speed, you clocked the Canadian doing 85 with gps.... I've clocked the silver meteor at 82 with gps. And corridor trains we all know they run over 100, so I'm not sure what the difference is. FRA makes decent rules I think.

...................I've never ridden via due to to the steep prices.

Have you ever looked at the “Express Deals” link on VIA’s Home Page? (updated regularly)

http://www.viarail.ca/en/deals

For example: A Sleeper Cabin for One (or Roomette) on the Canadian from Vancouver to Toronto on April 20 is $514 instead $1543. That includes meals for four days + Domes! Sure the fares on the Canadian are high as VIA is selling the experience and amenities besides basic transportation. If you don’t want to pay it, the next person will. (I can stay at a Super 8 but if I want the amenities, it’s the Westin or Hilton)

And I’ve said it before. If you just want to experience a classic Budd Stainless-Steel train complete with a Dome Car and the same equipment you would ride on the Canadian (minus the “Park” observation)......and at a fraction of the fare!...... it's VIA's “Chaleur” (now just called the Montreal-Gaspe train) and you can easily do a round-trip in a long weekend. It departs Montreal on Wed, Fri. and Sun evenings......arrives into Gaspe at noon the following day, makes a quick turn and is back in Montreal the following morning. That’s nearly 2100 kms of Dome riding and the Round trip fare in a Sleeper is $524 + tax (meals not included)

VIA’s Ocean between Halifax and Montreal covers a similar distances to Amtrak’s Lakeshore. I just went to the ReserVIA site (and not even using Express Deals) For tomorrow night, I can book single occupancy of a Deluxe Double Bedroom (with private shower in room) for $286 + tax (meals are extra so add say $30 dollars).

Tomorrow on the Lakeshore, a similar trip would cost me $536.

 

[jis]

Yeah but the corridor trains can get up to 100MPH

Yes the corridor trains are the fastest.......up to 100mph mostly on CN owned track but also on several stretches of VIA owned track too.

Note, please do not take the rant below as an attack either on NS VIA Fan or on amtrackwolverine, 'cause it is not meant to be in that spirit. It is meant to provide a slightly different perspective on the issue. Just take it as an alternate view of the world

Yup and in the UK they regularly run 1970s vintage Diesel HSTs at 125 mph with just TPW system, no auto stop, no speed enforcement, and they have only two serious accidents to show for their efforts in the last 40 years. And that too on vastly more dense operations in terms of tph than Canada and even US outside the NEC can only dream of. Different countries have developed through different accident and labor contract environment with different set of rules. Nothing new there.

In general all else being equal it is easier to maintain higher speeds over longer segments if the traffic density is relatively low and the tracks are relatively straight, two conditions that are not found in significant parts of the Amtrak NEC. Indeed the Acelas in NEC South manage a start to stop average of 86mph with no max speed above 135 mph and significant running (15 miles) through traffic density of 18 to 24 tph in each direction on a double track railroad in mostly 90mph territory. So indeed the New York - Boston performance is beaten by the same trains between New York and Washington DC running at slower top speed, just illustrating the point I am making further.

Amtrak’s Acela may have some impressive bursts of speed through Massachusetts and Rhode Island......but in the same length of time the Acela takes between Boston and New York: (3 1\2 hours).....VIA #57 a nearly all stops local in the corridor, using 55 year old rebuilt Budd equipment (some of it even xAmtrak Heritage cars) will cover the same distance and VIA's fastest train will have gone 50 miles further down the track.

Indeed the same Acela sets cannot beat the New York - Washington average speed even between Route 128 and Providence, which includes a bit of 150mph! And it comes nowhere near the start to stop averages routinely achieved between Metropark and Philadelphia of almost 90mph, and the Metropark - Trenton speed on the single Acela that stops at both of 102mph, start to stop, with max speed of only 135mph. That indeed has got to be the most exhilarating run today in all of Western hemisphere! Indeed that is why I don't bother schlepping up all the way to Boston to get exhilaration. I just drive down to Metropark and hop an Acela to Philly! And that is the segment that is slated to get max speed upped to 160mph in the next few years.

All this has to do with track alignment and features in addition to what equipment is being used. The same VIA equipment could not pull off the O/D times on the New Haven line, and given the track alignment in the VIA corridor, there an Acela like setup would beat the pants off of the current VIA operation. As is likely they would probably be running at average speeds that are higher than the current maximum speeds. So at best it is a non-sequiter.

There is a section of CP track between Smiths Falls and Brockville (used by Ottawa trains) and I’ve always found it exhilarating to be rolling along this line at 95mph with the F40s horn constantly sounding for the numerous grade-crossing. This is “dark” (un-signaled) track but is currently being upgraded with signals.

If operating dark is so wonderful why are they bothering to spend money on signals? Frankly things are run dark today simply because someone did not bother to spend the money to move things forward from the 19th to the 20th century, not because there is any great virtue in it otherwise.

And the long-distance trains are allowed high speed operation in the corridor too. The Ocean and Chaleur will be in the 95mph range west of Charny (Quebec City)..... Always fun to watch as we overtake everything over on parallel AutoRoute 20!

All Amtrak LD trains operate at 110mph on NEC. They operate at 110mph on certain other segments on the Empire Corridor too. But again this has more to do with what facilities are available in a given situation, more than whether VIA is better than Amtrak or vice-versa.

I’ve also been on the Canadian on the flat Saskatchewan prairie and clocked it in the 85mph range with my GPS. .......must be an impressive sight from line-side......25+ cars of perfectly matched Budd Stainless Steel and Domes!

And I have regularly clocked the Southwest Chief charging through new Mexico at 90mph. But again that is a pointless mine is bigger than yours discussion. The bottom line is both countries are firmly stuck in the 20th century with countries like India, as far as passenger railroading goes And all this in US and Canada because some of the richest countries in the world are unwilling to invest in infrastructure to the extent that is reasonable. :-/

 

[GlobalistPotato]

As I expected. Yes, many areas in the most populated part of Canada are very flat. This makes it really easy to have fast, straight sections of track.

In the US, the places that have the same characteristics (flat land, straight tracks) include Illinois, the Red River in Louisiana, parts of Texas, the Central Valley in California, most of the Great Plains, Florida and New Jersey.

It's a lot cheaper to have HSR in those places because the existing RR alignments are almost straight, compared to the Piedmont region of the South or some sections of upstate New York/western New England where the tracks are curving around all the hills. Getting high speeds will require new ROWs through all the hills and valleys.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

If operating dark is so wonderful why are they bothering to spend money on signals? Frankly things are run dark today simply because someone did not bother to spend the money to move things forward from the 19th to the 20th century, not because there is any great virtue in it otherwise.

These projects have been initiated to increase track capacity more so than to permit an overall increase in speed. Signalling systems are being installed in single track territory along with passing sidings and third and fourth tracks are being added to stretched of the Montreal <> Toronto mainline. This will increase frequency and permit a slight increase in speeds but as you say "both countries are firmly stuck in the 20th century"

........The bottom line is both countries are firmly stuck in the 20th century with countries like India, as far as passenger railroading goes. And all this in US and Canada because some of the richest countries in the world are unwilling to invest in infrastructure to the extent that is reasonable.

 

[jis]

If operating dark is so wonderful why are they bothering to spend money on signals? Frankly things are run dark today simply because someone did not bother to spend the money to move things forward from the 19th to the 20th century, not because there is any great virtue in it otherwise.

These projects have been initiated to increase track capacity more so than to permit an overall increase in speed. Signalling systems are being installed in single track territory along with passing sidings and third and fourth tracks are being added to stretched of the Montreal <> Toronto mainline. This will increase frequency and permit a slight increase in speeds but as you say "both countries are firmly stuck in the 20th century"

Yep. That makes a lot of sense. Frankly with a good signaling system and adequate passing sidings there is no reason that they could not up the speed there and on the CN corridor tracks to at least 125mph, but that would take additional capital to eliminate a number of grade crossings and operating expenditure to maintain tracks at a higher standard, and also would require acquisition of diesel power capable of 125mph - technically quite feasible, but somewhat more expensive.

But the same old question of whether there is the intestinal fortitude to spend the money necessary comes up again. The bottom line would be, will such increase revenues (and other intangible returns) sufficiently to make a good business case for it.

I bet VIA could try the playbook that Amtrak is applying on the NEC and try to get revenues upto a point where some of this could be self financed rather than getting grants from the government. Of course I have not looked at the performance details of the VIA corridor to be able to comment in an informed way on this matter though. If you have, it would be good for us on this side of the border to learn a bit more about it.

 

[railiner]

So, in the next few years, they plan to upgrade the track between Metropark and Trenton to 160 mph? Interesting.

I recall back in the late '60's, the United Aircraft Turbotrain ran at that speed on that stretch of the Penn Central during a high speed demo for the DOT.

Now, that's progress! Yes sir!

 

[jis]

So, in the next few years, they plan to upgrade the track between Metropark and Trenton to 160 mph? Interesting.

I recall back in the late '60's, the United Aircraft Turbotrain ran at that speed on that stretch of the Penn Central during a high speed demo for the DOT.

Now, that's progress! Yes sir!

This is very different from the various one time stunts pulled at various points. Actually late 60s and early 70s they were almost lucky that those trains stayed on the tracks Back then neither FRA nor the railroads had any specific standards in place for even 125mph, let alone 160. everything was oeprating under various waivers, and some very questionable ones at that. Jokingly it was said that it was all let's run it and see what happens approach. It was through the Metroliner effort that standards were developed for 125 mph and very soon it was realized that even the NJ raceway was lacking track quality in serious ways. It was NECIP that finally fixed that.

Currently, the track is already Class 8 (per a standard developed in the 90's!) since it takes Class 8 to operate at 135mph. It is the catenary and signaling that needs fixing. The plan is to install Constant Tension Catenary from New Brunswick to Morrisville. It will also increase catenary reliability since all the cross hangers will be replaced by cross beams thus removing the possibility of the failure of catenary on one track taking down catenary on all four tracks.

There is also a signaling upgrade planned (in addition to full ACSES installation) to reduce block lengths to about half of what they are now and institute the same high density 9 aspect signal as is in place between Newark and New York, increasing throughput and raising effective speed due to less time spent crawling along at Approach or Approach Medium speeds while approaching diverging interlockings. This signaling upgrade will also remove all track side block signals reverting those to pure cab signal operation. Only Home Signals will have track side signals. Metro North has already done this on their railroad, and the North River Tunnels also do not have track side block signals, nor does the High Line for the shortened high density blocks.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Canadian might get up to eighty, sure. Now explain to me how it is legitimate transportation when its coach prices are out of reach of ordinary people. And how it is legitimate transportation at 80 mph taking 86 hours to cover 2775 miles, or an average of 32.27 mph. The slowest Amtrak train on the system, the 403(b) segment of the Vermonter, covers the 251 miles between St. Albans and Springfield in 6 hours, ten minutes, or 40.67 mph, a full 8 mph faster than the Canadian whose speed you vaunt for god knows what reason. Amtrak's fastest Trans-con, the Southwest Chief, covers a somewhat similar 2256 miles in less than half the time at 53 mph.

A train costing more than first class on domestic airlines to ride in coach, running 3 days a week at a speed a horse relay run could beat is not transportation in the year 2011. Its a rail cruise financed on the backs of Canada's tax payers. Why it loses money is beyond me. It should be running at 110 mph behind P42s practically all the way from Elma to Edson, an arrow straight line running over the dinner table flat Canadian tundra.

They should take their 30 dining car staffs per train and their 60 year old equipment, replace the 30 car Canadian tri-weekly Canadian, and replace it with a 7-sleeper, 2-diner, 2 lounge, 5 coach Superliner set running daily at as fast a schedule as reasonably possible. It should be able to cover that distance in about 42 hours (same as the Chief) with its run through the Tundra, it should average close to 65 mph.

VIA Rail Canada is optimized to serve everybody but the transit dependent. All of their LD trains misconnect with each other, outrageous since their are only 4 of them, only 3 potential connections. (Canadian-Skeena, Canadian-Hudson Bay, Canadian-Ocean/Chaleur) There really is no excuse for it.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

The Canadian might get up to eighty, sure. Now explain to me how it is legitimate transportation when its coach prices are out of reach of ordinary people. And how it is legitimate transportation at 80 mph taking 86 hours to cover 2775 miles, or an average of 32.27 mph. The slowest Amtrak train on the system, the 403(b) segment of the Vermonter, covers the 251 miles between St. Albans and Springfield in 6 hours, ten minutes, or 40.67 mph, a full 8 mph faster than the Canadian whose speed you vaunt for god knows what reason. Amtrak's fastest Trans-con, the Southwest Chief, covers a somewhat similar 2256 miles in less than half the time at 53 mph.

Actually, apparently the slowest Amtrak train is the Texas Eagle, which has an average speed of about 35 mph!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I stand corrected. And it is still notably faster. That 12 hour layover on its way to LAX probably does it.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

.........It should be running at 110 mph behind P42s practically all the way from Elma to Edson, an arrow straight line running over the dinner table flat Canadian tundra.

They should take their 30 dining car staffs per train and their 60 year old equipment, replace the 30 car Canadian tri-weekly Canadian, and replace it with a 7-sleeper, 2-diner, 2 lounge, 5 coach Superliner set running daily at as fast a schedule as reasonably possible. It should be able to cover that distance in about 42 hours (same as the Chief) with its run through the Tundra, it should average close to 65 mph.

VIA Rail Canada is optimized to serve everybody but the transit dependent. All of their LD trains misconnect with each other, outrageous since their are only 4 of them, only 3 potential connections. (Canadian-Skeena, Canadian-Hudson Bay, Canadian-Ocean/Chaleur) There really is no excuse for it.

Again your lack of knowledge of Canada is so evident! The Canadian does not traverse “Tundra” between Elma and Edson……the landscape is no different than what you would experience on the Empire Builder across North Dakota……and in the Assiniboine River valley west of Winnipeg is far from an “ arrow straight line running over the dinner table flat tundra” as you say.

VIA’s trains do connect where there is a requirement. The Ocean and Chaleur routes are really an extension of the corridor and have very easy connections in Montreal. Anyone travelling between Halifax and the west is probably in no rush and the connections via Toronto would be just fine……they are more likely to be on the 5 hour non-stop ‘737.

Is there really a need for the Skeena and Hudson Bay to connect with the Canadian? These are remote services to get people along the routes into the closest large community. On the Hudson Bay, between The Pas and Winnipeg there are few passengers. Most have already disembarked at Thompson or The Pas to shop or for appointments before returning north. Someone connecting from the Canadian to the Hudson Bay is more apt to be a tourist (or railfan) and the layover in Winnipeg is really no big deal!

The Canadian is a tour train but still provides a “remote service” link to the larger centres. Besides the cost to the taxpayer you also have to look at the economic benefits these tourist leave during stopovers in communities such as Jasper National Park.

It makes no sense to replace the Budd equipment with a fast daily “Superliner” Canadian. What does make sense…….is a western “corridor” operation with a LRC type service between Winnipeg <> Calgary and Winnipeg <> Edmonton along with the proposed high speed trains between Calgary and Edmonton. But like Amtrak....until Ottawa want to invest in such a service, VIA’s hands are tied!