Amtrak and Bombardier

[Northeastern292]

I've read on Railroad.net that Amtrak will never, ever buy from Bombardier again. How true is that? I know management in the past has steered away from them, but is it company policy, like is Bombardier prohibited from permanently bidding on anything Amtrak is contracting for? The Acelas, yeah, that was a bum deal, but all and all they build good equipment. I've flown their RJs, the Q400s and have rode their commuter equipment.

As a frequent Empire Service customer, it's a shame that both NYSDOT and Amtrak can't improve Empire Service services. Cabcars would end the need to turn trains around in Sunnyside, and could possibly contribute to OTP, but I might be nuts.

P.S. Some of you may know me as the brains behind the "Railfans against the Tea Party" Facebook page. I'm finally posting on here. Hope this isn't a controversial topicl.

 

[jis]

Considering that had Bombardier not arranged the sweetheart financing deal wherein the Canadian taxpayer effectively subsidized Amtrak, there would have been no Acelas at all, I find the Bombardier bashing quite ironical. But then RR.net has its own ghosts to live with I suppose.

 

[Northeastern292]

Considering that had Bombardier not arranged the sweetheart financing deal wherein the Canadian taxpayer effectively subsidized Amtrak, there would have been no Acelas at all, I find the Bombardier bashing quite ironical. But then RR.net has its own ghosts to live with I suppose.

I guess, I guess. Why is it that the Western Hemisphere so third-world on high speed rail?

 

[NE933]

it's like an ex on Valentine's Day. Yes, the person is still beautiful and attractive, there are good memories and bad. But in the end, they still stiffed Amtrak, and Amtrak has to rightfully get some blame too, from the extra 4 inches of width to holding up production while arguing the colors of the drapes. And then there's the second day of service, the day in December 2000 after the inaugural, when the sole Acela was cancelled because of a problem with the toaster in the cafe.

The FRA must take some heat as well, for specifying a weight and design that would later cause dangerous yawing and truck hunting that persists to this day, and has the effect of slowing down schedules so that we don't quite get what we paid for and needed.

 

[jis]

Another way to look at it is that Amtrak got what it wanted and paid for and the Canadian taxpayers are having the last laugh.

 

[cirdan]

One problem with Bombardier in my own experience (and I did an internship with them once, and have also worked with sub-suppliers of some of their competitors, so this gives me some leverage of judgement) is that Bombardier has an extremely weaselish approach to its customer relationships. If the customer demands something that is clearly outlandish and stupid, other suppliers may tell them so, but Bombardier will diligently do the math and hand in a quote for manufacturing it. It's the "customer is always" right philosophy taken to dangerous extremes.

 

[MikefromCrete]

If the customer wants it, what wrong with providing a quote?

 

[caravanman]

I know nothing about the history of Amtrak and Bombadier.

In the good old days each railroad here in the UK designed and built their own engines. The ability to build trains from scratch rests with rather few companies these days. A nearby town to my home town of Nottingham is Derby, and Bombadier employ hunderds there. They have won a new train order recently from the UK network.

I hope Amtrak gets good trains whoever supplies them.

Ed

 

[jis]

I know nothing about the history of Amtrak and Bombadier.

In the good old days each railroad here in the UK designed and built their own engines. The ability to build trains from scratch rests with rather few companies these days. A nearby town to my home town of Nottingham is Derby, and Bombadier employ hunderds there. They have won a new train order recently from the UK network.

I hope Amtrak gets good trains whoever supplies them.

Ed

Bombardier is a major supplier to NY MTA and to NJ Transit, and in general what they supply is no worse than anyone else, except perhaps Kawasaki by a bit, in workmanship. Arguably the ALP-46 supplied by Bombardier worked out very well for NJT, while Amtrak was futsing around with Bombardier and Alstom producing the HHP-8 lemon. For Amtrak to now behave as if it is a victim of Bombardier is to say the least - a pathetic attempt at rewriting history of incompetent project management by Amtrak to start with. Just IMHO of course.

 

[rickycourtney]

If the customer wants it, what wrong with providing a quote?

Customers aren’t always sure what they want and if a company doesn't take the time to determine what the customer really needs... there's a good chance nobody will be pleased with the outcome.

This seems like the case with Amtrak and Bombardier.

 

[Northeastern292]

it's like an ex on Valentine's Day. Yes, the person is still beautiful and attractive, there are good memories and bad. But in the end, they still stiffed Amtrak, and Amtrak has to rightfully get some blame too, from the extra 4 inches of width to holding up production while arguing the colors of the drapes. And then there's the second day of service, the day in December 2000 after the inaugural, when the sole Acela was cancelled because of a problem with the toaster in the cafe.

The FRA must take some heat as well, for specifying a weight and design that would later cause dangerous yawing and truck hunting that persists to this day, and has the effect of slowing down schedules so that we don't quite get what we paid for and needed.

The FRA definitely learned from the Acela debacle, and hopefully they'll be a little more allowing for the new HSR trainsets.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Bombardier has been the manufacturer of some of the worst equipment, some of the most overpriced equipment, and some of the most dangerously engineered equipment in service in North America. We can ignore the Acela, since Amtrak was partly to blame. But what about the Hawker-Siddley bi-levels whose bad engineering is responsible for almost all commuter train deaths in the United States, mostly on MetroLink? There bad welding design, practice, and execution is what made those two California wrecks so tragic, when the welds holding the cars roofs and floors together failed catastrophically and caused the cars to telescope. That didn't happen at Chase where the forces and speeds were much higher. It didn't happen at Palo Verde, and it didn't happen at Big Bayou Canot.

It was the defective cab cars designed by Bombardier that caused the deaths at the Secaucus wreck, and permitted NJT an excuse to retire otherwise serviceable equipment. The Bombardier multilevels are the most cramped, and least efficient at handling passenger flow, commuter cars in this country- nothing is worse. They, probably as much as any factor, caused the disaster at the Super Bowl, and why the person who selected those over the Comet V for that service still has his job is a mystery.

It was Bombardier who supplied the insanely overpriced ALP-45DP and built it insufficiently powerful to actually handle the routes it is best suited for (Bay Head and Hackettstown). Bombardier built the the LRCs, whose main feature (the tilt) has been out of service for decades. Because they are unreliable, and for no other reason. It was Bombarider who built the PL42, a locomotive so bad that for several years it was banned on Amtrak trackage outright.

Bombardier builds crappy equipment, and while have a great respect for Dr. Jishnu, I dunno what he's smoking when he says otherwise. Sure there's a few good pieces, but hell, stranger things have happened, even reliable British automobiles.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

. . . Amtrak has to rightfully get some blame too, from the extra 4 inches of width to . . .

Will the new Acelas be 4 inches narrower? And the Viewliners coming? (Looks like the ACS-64s are narrower than the Amfleets.) Or has Amtrak given up on that degree of tilting? I'm sure MetroNorth won't be putting more space between the tracks. LOL.

 

[NE933]

I second that question about the Acela II's: are they going to be 4 inches narrower? If that and other design flaws are not corrected, then I see no need nor reason to order them.

I will advance guess that the answers will hinge on the fact that bids are based on performance specs, not on specific designs. I believe that mentallity is flawed and invites problems, so hopefully the people at Amtrak and the selected builder will not only have graduated the Acela school, fully vested in the known problems and shortcomings with the first go-around at this, but will take that knowledge and aggressively apply it. It's time for these folks to cook, and we are rightfully expecting a masterpiece.

 

[NE933]

That didn't happen at Chase where the forces and speeds were much higher. It didn't happen at Palo Verde, and it didn't happen at Big Bayou Canot.

Well, we don't have Budd and Pullman around anymore, as our transportation priorities (I know, that very frase 'transportation priority' is a joke) have let both of them die off. And now, we are in the metaphorical bar at 1AM, and there's no one to go home with except for a few losers.

 

[jis]

Bombardier builds crappy equipment, and while have a great respect for Dr. Jishnu, I dunno what he's smoking when he says otherwise. Sure there's a few good pieces, but hell, stranger things have happened, even reliable British automobiles.

I just said they are not particularly worse than others. I did not say they are wunderkids. And yes it is true that they tend not to protect the customers from their own stupidity. They are perfectly happy to plow in the money into their pockets while making silly customers with silly demands happy.
When you compare similar equipment supplied from multiple sources as in NY Subway cars, and measure things like MDBF, one finds that the Bombs and Alstoms come out about similar while the Kawasaki's are better.

As for the 45's remember it is our friendly folks at 1 Penn Plaza Newark under Warrington, who specified the silly thing and it did not occur to them that it will not be able to operate in D-mode with 10 cars in mainline service while supplying full HEP. The specification was pretty clear what they wanted. And as I said Bomb is annoyingly happy to give them what they asked for. I was actually astounded that NJT placed that order at all, for the unit price that Bomb asked for.

As for the Secaucus crash, there is no evidence that the cab car,which was based on a Pullman design, was constructed in a way that was non-compliant with all current crash-worthiness standards, and NTSB did not fault the equipment. They noted in the accident report that there is room for improvement of crash-worthiness construction standards regarding additional more robust collision posts and removal of break in the sill by a door at the cab. Those were subject of subsequent FRA rule making the results of which are seen in all new cab cars today.

And by the way it was Alstom that made the PL42 not Bombardier. But hey while we are on a roll.....

In any case what I am saying is a pretty narrow and conservative statement supported by actual numbers. However, of course anyone is entitled to their own opinion - whether supported by facts or not. But please do not make personal comments about "smoking something" and such. Does not help a civil discussion.

 

[engr08]

I've read on Railroad.net that Amtrak will never, ever buy from Bombardier again. How true is that? I know management in the past has steered away from them, but is it company policy, like is Bombardier prohibited from permanently bidding on anything Amtrak is contracting for? The Acelas, yeah, that was a bum deal, but all and all they build good equipment. I've flown their RJs, the Q400s and have rode their commuter equipment.

As a frequent Empire Service customer, it's a shame that both NYSDOT and Amtrak can't improve Empire Service services. Cabcars would end the need to turn trains around in Sunnyside, and could possibly contribute to OTP, but I might be nuts.

P.S. Some of you may know me as the brains behind the "Railfans against the Tea Party" Facebook page. I'm finally posting on here. Hope this isn't a controversial topicl.

I want to comment on the your Cab car idea, first off it would be cool to have a cab car on the empire corridor but how would it improve service? Then you stated that the empire trains wouldn't have to go to sunnyside, it doesn't matter if the empire trains had a cab car they would still have to go to sunnyside due to the track space at Penn. Im not really to sure about Amtrak and Bombardier disagreement but I think I has something to do with the Acelas and the maintaining the equipment. To be honest I think siemens might be a better choice for Amtrak anyway.

 

[jis]

Im not really to sure about Amtrak and Bombardier disagreement but I think I has something to do with the Acelas and the maintaining the equipment. To be honest I think siemens might be a better choice for Amtrak anyway.

AFAIR the disagreement turned up regarding the interpretation of the maintenance contract.
I do agree that the Siemens choice made for the ACS-64 is the better one with the most advanced technology available at the time and for the right price. I understand that the Engineers who have operated the engine love it, or at least so says my contacts at Amtrak.

 

[rickycourtney]

On the topic of Siemens… the company seems to be aggressively working to get into the US rail market (bidding so low other companies are complaining).

They won the bid for the ACS-64 and the new passenger locomotive being built for the state corridors (which has a high likelihood of being Amtrak's next road locomotive.)

I would also be willing to bet that Siemens will win the bid for the new high-speed trainset being built for Amtrak and the CAHSRA. They have mentioned in marketing materials that they wish to expand campus in Sacramento to build high-speed trainsets (in addition to the light rail vehicles and electric locomotives that are already being built there.)

I suspect that Bombardier has no interest in bidding as aggressively as Siemens (especially for an Amtrak contract).

 

[Fan Railer]

On the topic of Siemens… the company seems to be aggressively working to get into the US rail market (bidding so low other companies are complaining).

They won the bid for the ACS-64 and the new passenger locomotive being built for the state corridors (which has a high likelihood of being Amtrak's next road locomotive.)

I would also be willing to bet that Siemens will win the bid for the new high-speed trainset being built for Amtrak and the CAHSRA. They have mentioned in marketing materials that they wish to expand campus in Sacramento to build high-speed trainsets (in addition to the light rail vehicles and electric locomotives that are already being built there.)

I suspect that Bombardier has no interest in bidding as aggressively as Siemens (especially for an Amtrak contract).

I have no doubt that Siemens is one of the top contenders for the HST contract, but we will have to wait and see on the locomotives. That dispute is still ongoing.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Jishnu, I meant the smoking comment in a humerous way, meant no insult or disrespect. As I said, I hold your knowledge and intellect in high regard, and reasonable minds can differ.

One single example such as the subway is not adequate as a sample size. Not saying a sample size does exist elsewhere, though.

And I stand corrected on the PL42.

 

[engr08]

Im not really to sure about Amtrak and Bombardier disagreement but I think I has something to do with the Acelas and the maintaining the equipment. To be honest I think siemens might be a better choice for Amtrak anyway.

AFAIR the disagreement turned up regarding the interpretation of the maintenance contract.
I do agree that the Siemens choice made for the ACS-64 is the better one with the most advanced technology available at the time and for the right price. I understand that the Engineers who have operated the engine love it, or at least so says my contacts at Amtrak.

I didn't get my chance to operate the motor yet but I'm waiting patiently. When we did the walk around on these motors the technology just kinda blew me away. Their was more stuff Amtrak could have put into these motors but money was an issue. To me this motor makes the ALP look low budget but I'm am very please at what I saw and cant wait until the rest start making their way over.

 

[ronkstevens]

If the customer wants it, what wrong with providing a quote?

Customers aren’t always sure what they want and if a company doesn't take the time to determine what the customer really needs... there's a good chance nobody will be pleased with the outcome.

This seems like the case with Amtrak and Bombardier.

Customers may also not be aware of the engineering involved with what they want, either. A smart supplier would suggest "If we do this instead, it will achieve what you desire with more efficency and less cost"

 

[cirdan]

I have no doubt that Siemens is one of the top contenders for the HST contract, but we will have to wait and see on the locomotives. That dispute is still ongoing.

Siemens is not necessarily better quality-wise or design-wise, but Siemens are generally extremely good on the guarantee and service side and will spend their money actually fixing something if they designed it wrong rather than giving that money to lawyers to blame somebody else. They also have an honest upfront approach and will tell the customer if they think there might be a cheaper or more efficient solution rather than sheepishly fulfilling the customer's wishes to the letter. I thus feel that Amtrak did the right thing in going with Siemens on the ACS-64.

 

[jis]

Jishnu, I meant the smoking comment in a humerous way, meant no insult or disrespect. As I said, I hold your knowledge and intellect in high regard, and reasonable minds can differ.

Ah! The case of a missing smiley. No worries. No hard feelings.
Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate it.