Amtrak and the Cardinal

[jphjaxfl]

The Hilltopper went from New York to Washington as 66/67 with a sleeper, cut off the sleeper, and continued to Petersburg, Roanoke, and ultimately the grandiosely named "Tri-State Station" in Cattlettsburg, KY. It was the infamous "Train To Nowhere". In many ways, it was the perfect train to back up any criticisms of Amtrak. Indeed, it was indicative of everything that was wrong with Amtrak in its early years.
It was politically motivated, as was the Mountaineer. It served no major population bases after its leaving Washington. It provided a Washington connection to the Cardinal, sure- except the Cardinal already went through Washington. It served a few towns that the Cardinal didn't, but in general most of them were near enough to the Cardinal's stations that they could easily serve most or all the people who would have taken the Cardinal.

Now, I am all in favour of more trains, but I think they should be more spread out. People talk about a second frequency for, say, the Southwest Chief. I disagree with these people. I think Amtrak should first create a broad, spread out network that eliminates various empty areas before we create distinct second frequencies on various routes. BTW: the Southwest/Super Chief/Limited route was briefly served by a second frequency, the Chief, in 1972.

Rather, I think we should have several different trains passing through the same population bases. For example, the California Zephyr could be supplemented by a "City of San Francisco, a "San Francisco Chief", or both, each running over their original route- better than it could be served by a second train running the California Zephyr's route.

The Hilltopper was a poor use of resources. Amtrak in the late 70s had the northeast-to-midwest map criss-crossed by more than a half-dozen trains- Cardinal, Hilltopper, National Limited, Broadway Limited, Lake Shore Limited, Shenandoah, Niagara Rainbow, many of which served stations within minutes of each other.

Meanwhile, all of South Dakota, most of Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada, Iowa and Nebraska saw few trains.

Now, we'd all like to see more trains. I know I would. But their location and implementation needs to be better suited to serving America as a whole, and creating an overall system, then to benefit somebody like Stagger's own constituents.

The Hilltopper was a modifaction of the Mountaineer. The Mountaineer which started in 1974 ran from Norfolk to Cattlettsburg where

it combined with the Cardinal with through coach and sleeper to Chicago. The people along the former N&W line had been lobbying for a return of passenger service since the Pocahantas was discontinued between Norfolk and Cincinnati with a good connection to Chicago on April 30, 1971 when Amtrak began. Unfortunately, the tracks between Chicago and Cincinnati had deteriorated and the Cardinal/Mountaineer were fregently late. The Mountaineer did well in the first couple of years, but with the frequent tardiness, passengers along the line quit riding. Amtrak proposed to discontinue the Mountaineer, but the powers to be in Congress wanted to preserve service along the former N&W route. The Hilltopper ran down the corridor continuing to Petersburg, VA where it turned west and continued to Cattlettsburg, KY. Due to the revised schedule, the connection to the Cardinal was severed. The Hilltopper only ran a couple of years before it was discontinued.

The trains you mentioned in the 1970s did not serve stations within minutes of each other. In fact the Amtrak routes of the 1970s were skelatal compared to the routes that crossed the same area until April 30, 1971. As an example, Penn Central ran 3 trains west bound and 4 trains east bound via the former PRR line from New York to Chicago and 3 trains in each direction via the former NYC line through Buffalo and Cleveland until April 30, 1971.

 

[Rafi]

I've no idea if there actually was a Heritage crew dorm on the trains that ran without Viewliner sleepers, but there definately would be a need for one. Without one, Amtrak would actually be in violation of the contract with the OBS crew. The LSA in the lounge car, as well as any coach attendants have to be provided with sleeping accomodations.
Therefore I have to assume that Amtrak provided a dorm car, or somehow otherwise compensated the employees who worked those trains until such time as the Viewliner sleepers started to run and they could be assigned rooms in that car.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that Amtrak may not have actually run any food service car on those trains when there was no sleeper. I only took one or two of them and I don't specifically remember using a cafe; I just remember the conductor lamenting the lack of a sleeper and the lack of the dinette menu. It could very well be that they ran those trains in the corridor style with only coaches, conductors, and engineer. It was bottom of the barrel, that's for sure.

Rafi

 

[JohnF]

What amuzes me to no end is that there is no North-South rail linkage except on the coasts, and the CONOL. You'd think that Amtrak would institute connecting routes so people wouldn't have to go all the way to Chicago or California, or the NEC to go North or South.

Well I don't think there ever were very many that did not originate or terminate at Chicago. We had the Texas Zephyr from Dallas to Denver. A route that Amtrak should have restored years ago. And we had the Twin Star Rocket from Houston-Dallas/Ft Worth/Kansas City to Minneapolis/St Paul. A remenant of this exists as the Hearland Flyer. Then there was the Texas Chief from Houston-Ft Worth-KC-Chicago. It lasted into Amtrak only to be killed by the Carter Admin. Farther West you had the Pioneer and Desert Wind through SLC which Amtrak killed. East there were the Chicago-Florida trains. That's about all I can think of that were important. You can see that Texas has been pretty much devastated by Amtrak with little service. Missing also is a St Louis-Colorado connection.

You forget the Texas Eagle which links Texas and St Louis and Chicago. Other than the CONOL it is pretty much the only other north-south connection left through mid-America.

need a NW-SE route such as a Portland-Salt Lake-Denver-Dallas train maybe via WY

also a Thru the Center train such as WAS-KC-SL-Denver

plenty of convienent connections too

Bob

That route was covered by the UP's City of Portland later Amtrak's Pioneer. The connection to Dallas was via the Texas Zephyr. I believe the National Limited from St Louis to DC was the 'center' train until Amtrak cut it.

 

[Montanan]

That route was covered by the UP's City of Portland later Amtrak's Pioneer. The connection to Dallas was via the Texas Zephyr. I believe the National Limited from St Louis to DC was the 'center' train until Amtrak cut it.

I'm just being picky, here, but in pre-Amtrak days the Denver-Portland route was covered by the Portland Rose, rather than the City of Portland.

The Amtrak version of the National Limited ran between New York and Kansas City. Its discontinuance in 1979 left the important St. Louis-Kansas City route without any service at all, which is why the state of Missouri stepped in to support that route.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Also, Amtrak's version of the National Limited was more like, and in fact originally called in the first schedules, the Pennsy's Spirit of St. Louis, running, as it did, from New York and Washington over the Broadway to Harrisburg, combining there, and continuing to Pittsburg, Columbus, and Indianapolis on its way to St. Louis and Kansas City.

 

[George Harris]

Also, Amtrak's version of the National Limited was more like, and in fact originally called in the first schedules, the Pennsy's Spirit of St. Louis, running, as it did, from New York and Washington over the Broadway to Harrisburg, combining there, and continuing to Pittsburg, Columbus, and Indianapolis on its way to St. Louis and Kansas City.

??? to the best of my memory, the Broadway and National were never combined. I was working in the DC area in 1972 - 1978, and even rode the National once between Pittsburg and DC. Both were primarily New York trains. There was a single coach taken off the train and run Harrisburg to DC. It ran down the Port Road to Perryville, then on the Northeast Corridor, hauled by a GG-1. AS I recall, we left Harrisburg more or less on time and got into DC about 30 minutes early. The Washington section of the Broadway ran behind a diesel normally and went trhough Philadelphia 30th Street. The New York train did not go through 30th Street nor make any stops between Trenton and Harrisburg. Saw these trains most days in 1972 when I was working for the contractor building the WMATA Major Rapair Yard.

 

[Guest_MontanaJim_*]

You want to know one major reason for the Cardinal still running? I can give you one name: Robert C. Byrd.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Perhaps this thread is best summed up in a limmerick:

*eh hem..*

There once was a train called the Cardinal,

She ran to and from DC,

Amtrak wanted to nix her,

A Senator yelled his head off,

And the train went along thrice a week-

 

[George Harris]

You want to know one major reason for the Cardinal still running? I can give you one name: Robert C. Byrd.

Which is a long step ahead of what the other congresscritters do for their supposed areas of concern when it comes to passenger trains. All the others ever do is have studies done, which is a complete waste of money and time.

 

[sechs]

Pennsy's Spirit of St. Louis, running, as it did, from New York and Washington over the Broadway to Harrisburg, combining there, and continuing to Pittsburg

Kansas? California?

 

[JohnF]

That route was covered by the UP's City of Portland later Amtrak's Pioneer. The connection to Dallas was via the Texas Zephyr. I believe the National Limited from St Louis to DC was the 'center' train until Amtrak cut it.

I'm just being picky, here, but in pre-Amtrak days the Denver-Portland route was covered by the Portland Rose, rather than the City of Portland.

The Amtrak version of the National Limited ran between New York and Kansas City. Its discontinuance in 1979 left the important St. Louis-Kansas City route without any service at all, which is why the state of Missouri stepped in to support that route.

Actually UP combined their city of Denver and City of Portland in 1958-1960 or so and ran it through Denver. When I took my trip to the Seattle worlds fair in 1962 that is how we traveled. Sam Houston Zephyr to Dallas, Texas Zephyr to Denver, and City of Portland to Portland and a corridor train up to Seattle. The Texas Zephyr arrived in Denver at 6:30 AM and the City of Portland left at 8AM. Return was via Vancouver and the Canadian to Winipeg and the Twin Star Rocket from St Paul to Houston. The Soo Line provided the Winipeg to St Paul connection.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Also, Amtrak's version of the National Limited was more like, and in fact originally called in the first schedules, the Pennsy's Spirit of St. Louis, running, as it did, from New York and Washington over the Broadway to Harrisburg, combining there, and continuing to Pittsburg, Columbus, and Indianapolis on its way to St. Louis and Kansas City.

??? to the best of my memory, the Broadway and National were never combined. I was working in the DC area in 1972 - 1978, and even rode the National once between Pittsburg and DC. Both were primarily New York trains. There was a single coach taken off the train and run Harrisburg to DC. It ran down the Port Road to Perryville, then on the Northeast Corridor, hauled by a GG-1. AS I recall, we left Harrisburg more or less on time and got into DC about 30 minutes early. The Washington section of the Broadway ran behind a diesel normally and went trhough Philadelphia 30th Street. The New York train did not go through 30th Street nor make any stops between Trenton and Harrisburg. Saw these trains most days in 1972 when I was working for the contractor building the WMATA Major Rapair Yard.

Com'on, George. The route name. Pennsy called their mainline from Philly to Chicago the "Broadway" because of its multi-tracking (thus Broad Way). The name for their flagship Broadway Limited came from the name for the route. "Limited stops, over the Broad Way."

The National Limited went over the ex-Pennsy mainline, and thus, went over the Broadway.