amtrak compared to via rail

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yarrow

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far ne washington state, 1/2 mile from canada
i'm sure this has been discussed before but a comparison between the two national passenger rail systems of the us and canada would interest me. what is the sturcture and level of government support for the two systems. what about otp and levels of service? comfort of coaches and sleepers? comptence of on board workers? price (taking the exchange rate into account), food? and so forth
 
Amtrak and VIA Rail Canada are two similar, but at the same time different, animals. Both are government-run corporations (what we call in Canada a Crown Corporation), however, they differ in the way they were created.

Amtrak was created through actual legislation in Congress; to consolidate the freight railway's passenger service into one entity. Amtrak was given a mandate by Congress to provide passenger rail service in America (please correct me if I am wrong).

VIA was created by order-in-council (the Canadian equivalent of an executive order) by the Trudeau government in 1978. There is no "VIA Rail Canada Act" or anything similar (attempts to do so have been stymied because the legislation "dies on the order paper"- i.e. Parliament gets shut down either b/c of an election or other means before the bill got passed). VIA had been in existence shortly before it became a crown corporation- CN created VIA as a marketing scheme for its passenger rail service and CP later added its passenger service around the time VIA became a full-fledged crown corporation.

Both are political footballs, subject to the whims of the government of the day. Amtrak has been more fortunate than VIA in that many congressmen and women have pushed for funding for the preservation of service in some circumstances. Canadian governments have been more brutal with VIA in terms of budget cuts. in the 1980's and 1990's, VIA lost half of its transcontinental services (The Super Continental and The Atlantic were cut- Imagine the Empire Builder, Lake Shore Limited, California Zephyr, Sunset Limited, Texas Eagle and Cardinal cut to get the idea of the magnitude). The Canadian was switched to the Northern CN line (the old Super Continental route) in order to serve "more remote communities" (but in reality to secure political support in ridings/districts along the route). Service to Cape Breton Island in Nova Scotia and other Atlantic Canada services were cut as well.

Via's rail network today consists of:

The Quebec-Windsor corridor

The Canadian (Vancouver-Toronto over the northern CN line)

The Ocean (Montreal-Halifax via Quebec)

The Chaleur (Montreal-Gaspe)

The Malahat (on Vancouver Island)

The Skeena (Prince Rupert-Prince George-Jasper)

The Hudson Bay (Winnipeg-Churchill)

The Lake Superior (Sudbury-White River)

The Abitibi (Montreal-Senneterre)

The Saguenay (Montreal-Jonquiere)

Services on Amtrak and VIA also differs depending upon class and train.

Amtrak Coach class and VIA's Comfort class are similar in terms of price and service. However, many VIA trains don't have a "lounge" car per se and have cart/take-out service for food and beverages.

VIA 1 in the Corridor is the equivalent of Business/First class offered on Amtrak, but more akin to Acela First Class. Meals are included in your fare and wi-fi is offered on select trains.

VIA also offers Totem Deluxe Class on the Skeena during the peak season. Totem Deluxe gets seated in the Panorama glass dome car and also gets exclusive access to the Park car (Observation Car/dome). Meals are included in the fare. It is a tourist package, both in service and in price. (If you want a really cheap dome experience through the Rockies, take the Skeena off-season. Comfort class has the Park car then and you can get round-trip Prince George-Jasper for about $100 USD at the lowest price per person incl. taxes :D ).

Sleepers class depends on the train. The Canadian has the famous Silver & Blue class, which during the peak season can cost as much as $5000 CDN ONE WAY Vancouver-Toronto. But Silver & Blue is pretty much like taking a land cruise- miles above and beyond anything Amtrak offers (yes, even the relaunched Coast Starlight). The Ocean offers Easterly class which is similar to Silver & Blue.

There is also "Comfort Sleeper" on the Ocean, Chaleur, and Hudson Bay. You get a sleeper, but meals are not included, and it is less expensive than the premium sleeper classes. Amtrak's sleeper service is relatively consistent by comparison in terms of price and service.
 
I rode the Canadian last May and it was first class all the way. In my opinion, superior to Amtrak in every way. I have used the corridor service out of Toronto once only and it was very good. I don't know what Via's on time stats are or anything like that. Someone from Canada will have to give us a read on that.
 
I think its a tough comparison. Almost a David and Goliath comparison. Amtrak is probably double if not triple Via in size and by this I mean: Number of trains run daily, passengers carried, equipment and infrastructure owned, employees, etc. I haven't gotten around to it yet but I would like to run the numbers and see who actually is more cost efficient in terms of government support. Amtrak receives about $1.2B a year, (not including this years stimulus bonus), and Via is still in the $3-400 million Canadian Dollars range if I'm not mistaking. I'm curious to see who is doing a better job of managing their budget. In my limited Via experience, (I have used the Windsor-Toronto Corridor trains), I will always prefer a Cafe car to cart service and $5000 CAD, (one way), sounds a bit too steep for me to include the Canadian in my future rail plans, (though I would REALLY like to make that trip, plus the one up to Churchill- to see the Polar Bears). Amtrak is austere but it is reasonably priced, for the most part. However, Via employees tend to be a bit more friendly, accommodating and tolerant, (particularly of rail fans).
 
In my limited Via experience, (I have used the Windsor-Toronto Corridor trains), I will always prefer a Cafe car to cart service and $5000 CAD, (one way), sounds a bit too steep for me to include the Canadian in my future rail plans, (though I would REALLY like to make that trip, plus the one up to Churchill- to see the Polar Bears). Amtrak is austere but it is reasonably priced, for the most part. However, Via employees tend to be a bit more friendly, accommodating and tolerant, (particularly of rail fans).
$5000 is for a Triple Bedroom/Drawing room (the room itself, not per person). Berths are at least half of that price. I agree with you about the cart service. Don't know what the Corridor experience is like but I had cart service when I was on the Skeena last September. Didn't really like it (also didn't like being cooped up in the one coach car for the 12 hour trip as well...)

And I do agree with you about VIA's employees for the most part. I had a mediocre train attendant one time when I was on the Skeena. Like every company, there are always good, mediocre, and not-so-good employees.
 
In my limited Via experience, (I have used the Windsor-Toronto Corridor trains), I will always prefer a Cafe car to cart service and $5000 CAD, (one way), sounds a bit too steep for me to include the Canadian in my future rail plans, (though I would REALLY like to make that trip, plus the one up to Churchill- to see the Polar Bears). Amtrak is austere but it is reasonably priced, for the most part. However, Via employees tend to be a bit more friendly, accommodating and tolerant, (particularly of rail fans).
$5000 is for a Triple Bedroom/Drawing room (the room itself, not per person). Berths are at least half of that price. I agree with you about the cart service. Don't know what the Corridor experience is like but I had cart service when I was on the Skeena last September. Didn't really like it (also didn't like being cooped up in the one coach car for the 12 hour trip as well...)

And I do agree with you about VIA's employees for the most part. I had a mediocre train attendant one time when I was on the Skeena. Like every company, there are always good, mediocre, and not-so-good employees.
Find a Senior Citizen to travel with and you'll save a bundle, as VIA has this neat companion fare program. I was just pricing a possible trip for my mom and I this summer on the Canadian and it's about $2,400 CDN for the two of us using the companion discount in a double bedroom. For the heck of it I priced the same thing for just two adults and it's like $3,950 or so.
 
In my limited Via experience, (I have used the Windsor-Toronto Corridor trains), I will always prefer a Cafe car to cart service and $5000 CAD, (one way), sounds a bit too steep for me to include the Canadian in my future rail plans, (though I would REALLY like to make that trip, plus the one up to Churchill- to see the Polar Bears). Amtrak is austere but it is reasonably priced, for the most part. However, Via employees tend to be a bit more friendly, accommodating and tolerant, (particularly of rail fans).
$5000 is for a Triple Bedroom/Drawing room (the room itself, not per person). Berths are at least half of that price. I agree with you about the cart service. Don't know what the Corridor experience is like but I had cart service when I was on the Skeena last September. Didn't really like it (also didn't like being cooped up in the one coach car for the 12 hour trip as well...)

And I do agree with you about VIA's employees for the most part. I had a mediocre train attendant one time when I was on the Skeena. Like every company, there are always good, mediocre, and not-so-good employees.
Find a Senior Citizen to travel with and you'll save a bundle, as VIA has this neat companion fare program. I was just pricing a possible trip for my mom and I this summer on the Canadian and it's about $2,400 CDN for the two of us using the companion discount in a double bedroom. For the heck of it I priced the same thing for just two adults and it's like $3,950 or so.
Take me - I'm a senior!
 
In my limited Via experience, (I have used the Windsor-Toronto Corridor trains), I will always prefer a Cafe car to cart service and $5000 CAD, (one way), sounds a bit too steep for me to include the Canadian in my future rail plans, (though I would REALLY like to make that trip, plus the one up to Churchill- to see the Polar Bears). Amtrak is austere but it is reasonably priced, for the most part. However, Via employees tend to be a bit more friendly, accommodating and tolerant, (particularly of rail fans).
$5000 is for a Triple Bedroom/Drawing room (the room itself, not per person). Berths are at least half of that price. I agree with you about the cart service. Don't know what the Corridor experience is like but I had cart service when I was on the Skeena last September. Didn't really like it (also didn't like being cooped up in the one coach car for the 12 hour trip as well...)

And I do agree with you about VIA's employees for the most part. I had a mediocre train attendant one time when I was on the Skeena. Like every company, there are always good, mediocre, and not-so-good employees.
Find a Senior Citizen to travel with and you'll save a bundle, as VIA has this neat companion fare program. I was just pricing a possible trip for my mom and I this summer on the Canadian and it's about $2,400 CDN for the two of us using the companion discount in a double bedroom. For the heck of it I priced the same thing for just two adults and it's like $3,950 or so.
I'm a senior too! Take me!
 
I will always prefer a Cafe car to cart service and $5000 CAD, (one way), sounds a bit too steep for me to include the Canadian in my future rail plans, (though I would REALLY like to make that trip, plus the one up to Churchill- to see the Polar Bears). Amtrak is austere but it is reasonably priced, for the most part. However, Via employees tend to be a bit more friendly, accommodating and tolerant, (particularly of rail fans).

I don't know where you got your fare number, but one way single bedroom is only $1,048 in the off season which is before Memorial Day and a double bedroom is just $500 more. That price includes everything and the service is first class and the food excellent. You will have to pay extra for wine, beer or mixed drinks although they served champagne in the dome car several times for free. They also offer upper and lower berths if you want to go cheap or even coach. The coach section of the train has it's own cafe/dome car, but you have to pay for the meals. The train runs over 20 cars long, has two diners for first class, two dome lounges and the dome observation in addition to the cafe/dome for coach. I don't think you can beat that price even on Amtrak.
 
Find a Senior Citizen to travel with and you'll save a bundle, as VIA has this neat companion fare program. I was just pricing a possible trip for my mom and I this summer on the Canadian and it's about $2,400 CDN for the two of us using the companion discount in a double bedroom. For the heck of it I priced the same thing for just two adults and it's like $3,950 or so.
Take me - I'm a senior!

I'm a senior too! Take me!
Um, you do realize that the senior is the one paying the big price. :blink:

In my example above, as the companion I'm paying $523.95 to ride along in the double bedroom. Mom's paying $1,886.85 for herself and the room.

In an interesting twist though, if we cancel she gets all of her money back, but I have to pay a $100 penalty. :unsure:
 
I think its a tough comparison. Almost a David and Goliath comparison. Amtrak is probably double if not triple Via in size and by this I mean: Number of trains run daily, passengers carried, equipment and infrastructure owned, employees, etc. I haven't gotten around to it yet but I would like to run the numbers and see who actually is more cost efficient in terms of government support. Amtrak receives about $1.2B a year, (not including this years stimulus bonus), and Via is still in the $3-400 million Canadian Dollars range if I'm not mistaking. I'm curious to see who is doing a better job of managing their budget. In my limited Via experience, (I have used the Windsor-Toronto Corridor trains), I will always prefer a Cafe car to cart service and $5000 CAD, (one way), sounds a bit too steep for me to include the Canadian in my future rail plans, (though I would REALLY like to make that trip, plus the one up to Churchill- to see the Polar Bears). Amtrak is austere but it is reasonably priced, for the most part. However, Via employees tend to be a bit more friendly, accommodating and tolerant, (particularly of rail fans).

Hi there from Canada! Give me Amtrak any day!!! It's no contest.

Amtrak has how many more overnight trains compared to Via Rail's 4 overnigh trains. The Canadian runs only 3 days a week and they have just added about 10 hours to the schedule in the Dec. schedule change. The Chaleur runs only 3 days a week to Gaspe my home town! The Matapedia to Gaspe section is 202 miles in length and as far as i know there is no freight traffic at all! The Federal, Provincal and local governments support and own various parts of the line. Take a ride on this line if you are thinking about it NOW as you never know what may happen in the future!?

Via's fare's are higher than Amtrak's usually. Although my parents can get a deal with Via where my Dad needs my mom to travel with him and she goes for free!!! This is and excellent deal!

Via is a pretty good deal for seniors. But for me at my age (47) the deals are not good. For my wife and my self to go from Toronto to Vancouver (return) in the middle of the summer would cost me $6,000 to $7,000 or more to do in a bedroom!!! :angry: Even with Dome cars and supposedly better food I will take AMTRAK any day!!! I would say about 95% of the people who travel on this train are not from Canada but the tax payers support this train! :p

Amtrak's train to the west are for the regular Tax paying people in America and else where!!! I used travel on the Canadian/Super Continental until they priced the Canadian out of this world. :angry:

On Via's Corridor train's there is NO cafe/snack car and this really SUCKS as the runs to from Toronto to Ottawa/Montreal are all in the 4.5/5.5 + hour runs with no where to go except the bathroom which is for the birds!!!

We were thinking of going to Montreal for Easter but are going on Amtrak instead!

We are purposely taking Amtrak from NFLS to NYP because it was a better deal, the route is quite interesting.They have BC which we are taking, which is better than coach but not priced out this world like first class and the have a have the cafe in the same car and with tables at the other end. Amtrak wins!

Via is ok but Amtrak is better by a country mile! My opinion from a Canada on Via/Amtrak. :rolleyes:
 
Amtrak is a much more functional railroad. The Canadian, Ocean, Chaluer, and Skeena are mostly tourist trains. The Hudson Bay is more functional, as is the Malahat. But keep in mind VIA's long distance trains are tri-weekly. I don't know if any of them run more frequently then that, but I doubt it. Amtrak has two tri-weeklys- the Sunset and Cardinal. Everything else on the system has daily service.

Amtrak has much newer equipment- the only new stuff VIA has are a handful of P42s and the 12-year-old Renaissance cars. The rest of it consists of the about 55 year old Canadian Budd coaches and the 28 year old LRCs. They also have 57 22 year old F40s.

Compared to VIA, Amtrak has better OTP, faster operating speeds, better real-world equipment, much better national coverage, and a much higher rate of business travel.

VIA has three types of pure sleepers: 22-passenger "Manor" sleepers, 23-passenger "Chateau" sleepers, and 20-passenger "Renaissance" sleepers. It can hold them in 13, 15, and 10 individual units, respectively.

On the other hand, Amtrak also has 3 types of sleepers- the 30 passenger Viewliner, the 40 passenger Superliner, and the 36 passenger Superliner Deluxe Sleeper, Actually, with Amtrak allowing 3 people to book bedrooms, they actually can hold 32, 45, and 44, respectively, in 15, 19, and 16 units.

Likewise, the Budd coaches hold 50 people verses 60 in the Amfleet IIs and 75 in the Superliners.

Amtrak's long-distance routes are geared to functional transportation- they have a lot more coach capacity then sleeper capacity. Most passengers are short hauls- they move between one stop and another on the route, rather than between terminals.

The Quebec-Windsor corridor is a serious functional rail system. The rest of it is primarily tourism and vacationers. Amtrak's NEC, Wolverine, Lincoln Service, Hiawatha, Cascades, Pacific Surfliner, Capitol Corridor, and San Jocquins are functional rail corridors- most travellers are on business. The long-distance routes are more touristy then the corridor, but people seriously travel for business between Chicago and New York, Washington, Boston, Memphis, Minneapolis-St.Paul, and Denver, as well as between New York and Atlanta.

Amtrak is a much more real-world railroad. Outside of the Quebec-Windsor Corridor, VIA is honestly the Nostalgia Limited people like McCain attempt to brand Amtrak as. Not to disparage VIA's service for the types of people that read this board. Just pointing out a distinction between them.
 
Amtrak has much newer equipment- the only new stuff VIA has are a handful of P42s and the 12-year-old Renaissance cars. The rest of it consists of the about 55 year old Canadian Budd coaches and the 28 year old LRCs. They also have 57 22 year old F40s.
Compared to VIA, Amtrak has better OTP, faster operating speeds, better real-world equipment, much better national coverage, and a much higher rate of business travel.
I thought you liked old Budd equipment.
 
Amtrak is a much more functional railroad. The Canadian, Ocean, Chaluer, and Skeena are mostly tourist trains. The Hudson Bay is more functional, as is the Malahat. But keep in mind VIA's long distance trains are tri-weekly. I don't know if any of them run more frequently then that, but I doubt it. Amtrak has two tri-weeklys- the Sunset and Cardinal. Everything else on the system has daily service.
.............................................................Outside of the Quebec-Windsor Corridor, VIA is honestly the Nostalgia Limited people like McCain attempt to brand Amtrak as. Not to disparage VIA's service for the types of people that read this board. Just pointing out a distinction between them.
The Canadian could be classified as a tourist train and possibly the Skeena but not the Ocean or Chaleur. These trains provide a very functional service and are heavy with local passengers and those travelling to and from Montreal and the Corridor routes of central Canada. The Ocean provides a Corridor type operation throughout the Maritimes and is especially popular with students......just stand on the platforms at Moncton, Bathurst or Campbellton. The Ocean does provide a tourist-type service “Easterly Class” but only during the summer and fall.

The Ocean operates daily except Tuesdays and this is by government mandate. There would be sufficient traffic for a daily operation.
 
Amtrak is a much more functional railroad. The Canadian, Ocean, Chaluer, and Skeena are mostly tourist trains. The Hudson Bay is more functional, as is the Malahat. But keep in mind VIA's long distance trains are tri-weekly. I don't know if any of them run more frequently then that, but I doubt it. Amtrak has two tri-weeklys- the Sunset and Cardinal. Everything else on the system has daily service.
.............................................................Outside of the Quebec-Windsor Corridor, VIA is honestly the Nostalgia Limited people like McCain attempt to brand Amtrak as. Not to disparage VIA's service for the types of people that read this board. Just pointing out a distinction between them.
The Canadian could be classified as a tourist train and possibly the Skeena but not the Ocean or Chaleur. These trains provide a very functional service and are heavy with local passengers and those travelling to and from Montreal and the Corridor routes of central Canada. The Ocean provides a Corridor type operation throughout the Maritimes and is especially popular with students......just stand on the platforms at Moncton, Bathurst or Campbellton. The Ocean does provide a tourist-type service “Easterly Class” but only during the summer and fall.

The Ocean operates daily except Tuesdays and this is by government mandate. There would be sufficient traffic for a daily operation.
The prices alone are enough reason to call this thing a tourist train.

Real trains run daily. Amtrak manages to pull that off on a much smaller budget then VIA does. Amtrak gets less money than VIA does, when you remove the money Amtrak gets to maintain its track (VIA has almost none), and consider the actual route-miles VIA runs.

If VIA was a functional railroad, they'd stop primping up their tourist trains with ever more lavish luxuries and staffing, and put the money to running its trains daily, and running a lot more corridor trains. But they don't. Because that's not their market. Their market is tourists, primarily.
 
The prices alone are enough reason to call this thing a tourist train.
Have you actually checked the fares for “Comfort Class” which is a basic coach and sleeper fare on the Ocean. Few amenities are offered and meals are not included. Easterly Class, geared to tourists during the summer is expensive and similar to Silver & Blue Class on the Canadian (but the basic coach & sleeper fare is still offered)

Have you even been on the Ocean or Chaleur to know the demographics of the passengers who use these services? So I’m sorry I have to disagree with you but I ride the Ocean enough to know it provides a functional service throughout the Maritimes and overnight to/from Montreal and the corridor. Like I said, stand on the platform in Moncton or Campbellton especially on a Friday night....you’ll find very few tourists using this train. Even during the winter you will find six or seven sleepers full west of Campbellton (and this is not really the tourist season!)
 
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The prices alone are enough reason to call this thing a tourist train.
Have you actually checked the fares for “Comfort Class” which is a basic coach and sleeper fare on the Ocean. Few amenities are offered and meals are not included. Easterly Class, geared to tourists during the summer is expensive and similar to Silver & Blue Class on the Canadian (but the basic coach & sleeper fare is still offered)
Unfortunately, he's right about his comparison of coach fares. I'm looking at a potential trip on the Ocean Montreal-Halifax on 16 August. Comfort (coach) fare: $163 (that's the full comfort fare, so I could cancel and get most of my money back; but the discounted non-refundable was still ~$130-140).

For comparison, same date, roughly same number of hours on the train... Lake Shore Limited NYP-CHI, $84. Cardinal, PHL-CHI, $84. And those are fully-refundable.

So, comparing coach to coach, the Ocean is twice as expensive as equivalent Amtrak trains.
 
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The prices alone are enough reason to call this thing a tourist train.
Have you actually checked the fares for “Comfort Class” which is a basic coach and sleeper fare on the Ocean. Few amenities are offered and meals are not included. Easterly Class, geared to tourists during the summer is expensive and similar to Silver & Blue Class on the Canadian (but the basic coach & sleeper fare is still offered)
Comfort class fares again vary. Like I was saying above, $100 USD round-trip from Prince George-Jasper for the basic non-refundable fare during the off-season. For a weekend getaway, that is actually not too bad (you'll probably pay that amount in gas if you drive). Now, get that train to Edmonton and daily and you would have a huge increase in ridership.
 
The prices alone are enough reason to call this thing a tourist train.
Have you actually checked the fares for “Comfort Class” which is a basic coach and sleeper fare on the Ocean. Few amenities are offered and meals are not included. Easterly Class, geared to tourists during the summer is expensive and similar to Silver & Blue Class on the Canadian (but the basic coach & sleeper fare is still offered)
Unfortunately, he's right about his comparison of coach fares. I'm looking at a potential trip on the Ocean Montreal-Halifax on 16 August. Comfort (coach) fare: $163 (that's the full comfort fare, so I could cancel and get most of my money back; but the discounted non-refundable was still ~$130-140).

For comparison, same date, roughly same number of hours on the train... Lake Shore Limited NYP-CHI, $84. Cardinal, PHL-CHI, $84. And those are fully-refundable.

So, comparing coach to coach, the Ocean is twice as expensive as equivalent Amtrak trains.
Yes and I just priced out a sleeper: Dep Halifax Mar 25 & return from Montreal Mar 26. Single occupancy of a Deluxe Double Bedroom (shower in room) $508.50 (roundtrip)

And for the same dates: New York <> Chicago roundtrip on the Lakeshore: $906 in a Viewliner Roomette.

Fares are hard to compare with so many variables, buckets, dates and discounts some are eledgeable for, others are not.
 
Round trip for two people is more comparable. It's 990 in the Viewliner and 1016 on the Ocean. Except that Viewliner price is highest bucket.
 
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