Amtrak Guest Rewards 2.0 Coming January 2016

[Devil's Advocate]

My perspective from Chicago-land is totally different. I'm gonna keep my points, continue earning points as normal this year, and when the new program kicks in travel in roomettes to NYP, WAS, Memphis & NOLA for fewer points than currently required.

Yep. You are a winner in this randomness. CHI, NYP, STP, WAS, all winners. Here in Texas, we lose a great deal. Going to burn my 44k points before the change and likely say goodbye to LD Amtrak travel. Sadly.

There is no doubt that here in TX the news is pretty negative. Probably the same in most of the country. Although saying that in public may annoy the folks from CHI and the NEC.

I still have yet to exercise my Buy Points option this year and now wonder under the new system if it is worth buying Points....

Since AGR 2.0 values points below the price they sell them there is no reason whatsoever to buy points anymore.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

I'm wondering what will happen to point buying. I was always kind of amused that people would really want to buy points over several years just to save up for sleeper redemptions that would actually cost less in terms of dollars spent. It just seemed kind of odd to me. Now that they'll have a combination of points and dollars, it might make less sense to buy points ahead of time.

I haven't read all the way through this thread, but is there an answer as to when point buying will end? I'm guessing that point buying will be cut off no later than January 24, 2016, but will it be earlier than that? Point buying is normally restricted by calendar year, so I'm sure we can still buy points in 2015, but I'm curious as to whether we'll be allowed to buy a new set of points from January 1-24.

And to BCL's issue... it would be silly to buy points if they end up costing more than just buying a ticket, but there are PLENTY of routes where buying & using points is very worthwhile. For example, a 2-zone trip in a roomette costs only 20,000 points. Since it costs $275 for 10,000 points (assuming they're not offering a bonus), getting 20,000 points costs only $550. A cross-country 2-zone trip in a roomette for 2 people will almost always cost substantially more than $550. If I can get another 10,000 points in before the old program goes away, & book a trip before the old program expires, it might make a big difference.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Since redemptions will be Fare Based, will discounted fares ( Senior, AAA etc) be the basis for the number of required points, or will they be a flat current Bucket rate when booked for everyone?

Booking up to 11 months in advance right now is usually High Bucket, so the number of points will be the max.Then, if the Fare goes down, as they do, you will lose points to make modifications due to the new penalty policy!

Maybe this thread isn't the best place to ask this question, but if this statement is true then I really don't understand the bucket system. I thought fares always started in the lowest bucket and worked their way up as seats / rooms sold out, so it was always beneficial to book as early as you can. Is that not the case?

 

[chakk]

Your assumption is false. Fares do not always start in lowest bucket; but rather may start for some dates in higher buckets if the yield management algorithm computes that travel on that date will be in high demand. In other words, "charge what the market will bear"

 

[SteveSFL]

DP, the cost to buy points went up significantly a few months ago. It's now about $375 for 10,000 points (with no bonus). But you can now purchase up to 15,000 points per year (so if you already bought 10K earlier in 2015, you can buy 5K more before the end of the year).

The bucket doesn't always start low and go up. The sometimes go down as the date gets closer, but may continue to go up if there is a high demand.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I haven't read all the way through this thread, but is there an answer as to when point buying will end?

Why would point buying end? At the new rates Amtrak will always make more selling points than they'd make selling tickets directly. If I were in charge of AGR I'd let the suckers who struggle to evaluate value propositions buy points until the end of time.

 

[Carolina Special]

So when the points + cash deal becomes active, will the cash portion be at the redemption rate for points of $0.0289 or at the current points buying rate of $.0375? The latter would not be very attractive for the buyer.

 

[George K]

My perspective from Chicago-land is totally different. I'm gonna keep my points, continue earning points as normal this year, and when the new program kicks in travel in roomettes to NYP, WAS, Memphis & NOLA for fewer points than currently required.

Interesting. A bedroom on #58 on 11/1 is about 800 points cheaper. PDX is 15K points cheaper. But if I try on 4/22/16 (a Friday), it's 3K points more. Bucket...

I'll have to keep checking the prices for my trip to PDX next year. It might be worth the hassle to save some points if the ticket goes to low bucket.

 

[bryan9]

My previous trip was WAS-SEA via the Cardinal, Southwest Chief, and Coast Starlight. Used to be 35,000 points. Departing July 22, 2016, it's 72,761 points (based on $2,109 rail fare).

This is a pretty good example of a high-mileage, high-bucket itinerary that is penalized by the new redemption structure. But you can still make the trip via the Capitol Limited, and Zephyr/Coast Starlight or Empire Builder for a lot less (as low as $1072 for the July, 2016 dates I examined) -- 37,000 points. Not as good as the previous deal, to be sure, but perhaps it's worth considering staying in the program -- especially if you love passenger train travel as much as you evidently do.

 

[bryan9]

Fares do not always start in lowest bucket; but rather may start for some dates in higher buckets if the yield management algorithm computes that travel on that date will be in high demand. In other words, "charge what the market will bear"

It seems that some trains are always high bucket, like the Cardinal. Any others?

 

[City of Miami]

Maybe this thread isn't the best place to ask this question, but if this statement is true then I really don't understand the bucket system. I thought fares always started in the lowest bucket and worked their way up as seats / rooms sold out, so it was always beneficial to book as early as you can. Is that not the case?

Up until a 4 or 5 years ago this was the case. Then Amtrak started to modify their algorithm to reflect demand driven pricing. On some trains they know pretty well they are going so sell all or nearly all the seats so why should they give them away cheaper to early buyers? True, they would get to hold the money for awhile but at today's interest rate that is negligible. The system has evolved to be very flexible: the prices go up and down as expectations of final sales change. It still is not as dramatic as many airlines though where prices can go up and down on an hourly basis.

I think the expected change in AGR redemption supports this business model. Specifically it encourages redeemers to shift to trains that are not expected to sell out to revenue producing buyers. It uses price to accomplish this.

It all makes sense from a business point of view. After all, Amtrak was set up as a business by Congress and in recent years at least select Congresspersons have harangued Amtrak to act more like it was intended. Amtrak has increasing ridership and limited, perhaps declining, inventory to produce revenue so it is compelled to maximize return on each unit of sale. No more free lunch.

Perhaps no more lunch at all. The experiments Amtrak is making with food and beverage service fits into the same model. Amtrak is trying to find out what their customers actually want from a very expensive service where everyone actually loses: Amtrak loses money on $8 hotdogs and some customers complain bitterly about change. We are not in the 20th century anymore with elegant full service dining options. No one wants to pay for that on Amtrak. The main cost generator seems to be personnel the same as for all f/b services; even McDonalds is shedding personnel and going for more robotics as the minimum wage rises and labor costs rise dramatically for them. They are not going to stand by twiddling their thumbs!

 

[JoeBas]

"We are not in the 20th century anymore"

I'm so glad were catching up in the race to the bottom...

 

[City of Miami]

I'm so glad were catching up in the race to the bottom...

You can still have the top, first class service, if you want it.....but you have to PAY FOR IT. Some folks in present day America don't seem to want to pay for much of anything of value. Either give it to me or no dice.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

City of Miami,

I can't, and won't, argue with what your saying, but I don't have to like it. As JoeBas says: "Welcome to the race to the bottom." Or, another way to put it: Welcome to the global economy where the only thing that matters is how cheaply things can be made or done. :wacko:

For me, Amtrak is unfortunately becoming less and less of a way I want to travel. Take The Canadian sometime and then hop on an Amtrak LD, the differences are becoming more and more jarring. Time to ride other forms of rail transportation, or fly or even drive. I'm going to make my opinion known with my wallet.

 

[PaulM]

The MAX value points will be worth under the new system will be ~2.9c each, but Amtrak wouldn't have any interest in giving us voucher credit instead, because there are several ways they'll be giving us less per point than that.

I came up with 2.9 cents per $ spent for the credit card because, at least currently, you earn one point per $. But apparently you will still earn 2 points per $ for Antrak travel, so I came up with 5.79. Granted, I didn't read all the details, so they could nibble at the 5.79. But 2.9 wouldn't be the max.

Regarding the voucher credit, that is just my theory about the mechanism for applying previously earned AGR credits when you make a reservation. It has nothing to do with how much credit is granted when you travel.

 

[jtoddander]

The revised program injects a little bit more rationality into AGR. A certain number of travelers seek to construct the longest possible itinerary...days and miles...for the fewest possible number of points. This group will now have to pay for it or plan a more rational and direct itinerary.

 

[BCL]

So when the points + cash deal becomes active, will the cash portion be at the redemption rate for points of $0.0289 or at the current points buying rate of $.0375? The latter would not be very attractive for the buyer.

I've found that many points+cash programs typically have the cash portions 1:1 to the retail cost. However, most point buying systems seem to be only targeted towards people who are barely short. AGR's point buying system seems kind of unusual to me - almost defeating the purpose of the program, which is to get people to pay for cash trips.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'm so glad were catching up in the race to the bottom...

You can still have the top, first class service, if you want it.....but you have to PAY FOR IT. Some folks in present day America don't seem to want to pay for much of anything of value. Either give it to me or no dice.

Where is this fancy first class train you're rambling about? I've ridden a lot of Amtrak trains, stayed in nearly every accommodation available except the handicapped rooms, and never seen anything that I'd call first class.

The revised program injects a little bit more rationality into AGR. A certain number of travelers seek to construct the longest possible itinerary...days and miles...for the fewest possible number of points. This group will now have to pay for it or plan a more rational and direct itinerary.

Too bad the revised program does nothing to rationalize the skeleton network that created these irrational routings in the first place. I also like how in your view buying points with money isn't the same as "paying for it." Amtrak is apparently banking on reductions in redemptions being replaced by people who will happily pay thousands of dollars for a dumpy fiberglass cubbyhole covered in soiled carpet. It's possible that may be the case, but it seems equally possible to me that many of the compartments that previously went out as redemptions will either go out empty or will need to be sold at a discount compared to today's prices. Maybe we should wait for the eggs to hatch before we start counting chickens.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Your assumption is false. Fares do not always start in lowest bucket; but rather may start for some dates in higher buckets if the yield management algorithm computes that travel on that date will be in high demand. In other words, "charge what the market will bear"

I wondered about that - I did a forum search for explanations of the bucket system, but the information I found was from several years ago.

DP, the cost to buy points went up significantly a few months ago. It's now about $375 for 10,000 points (with no bonus). But you can now purchase up to 15,000 points per year (so if you already bought 10K earlier in 2015, you can buy 5K more before the end of the year).

The bucket doesn't always start low and go up. The sometimes go down as the date gets closer, but may continue to go up if there is a high demand.

Wow, I wish I would have found out about that increase before it happened. I swear Amtrak didn't notify me, which is strange considering I follow them on Facebook and Twitter and get emails from them regularly.

 

[dlagrua]

Agree with Devils advocate. Much of the dingy, broken accomodations with the dirty carpets are in fact booked by travelers that use AGR point redemptions. Eliminate these passengers and the sleepers will have plenty of space available for Amtrak to attempt to sell but will they?

Lets take a look at a rediculous fare.

A round trip ticket for a bedroom from CHI to DEN on the California Zephryr is $2500. A round trip bedroom fare from PHL to CHI can be $1750. Over $4000 for a trip from PHL to DEN?????? Is this the Orient Express????? You'd have to be out of your mind to pay those fares and I'll pass. In the past we would do LD trips on points, with one segment using cash, and points. A good portion of those were also purchased. It was a win-win for both Amtrak and the rail passenger. Amtrak gave away nothing for free, the sleepers were full and the revenue was high. Our tickets were always paid for with merchant purchased points and cash.

Now they want to try and suck the blood out of you. I predict that this program is going to fail miserably.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Agree with Devils advocate. Much of the dingy, broken accomodations with the dirty carpets are in fact booked by travelers that use AGR point redemptions. Eliminate these passengers and the sleepers will have plenty of space available for Amtrak to attempt to sell but will they?

Lets take a look at a rediculous fare.

A round trip ticket for a bedroom from CHI to DEN on the California Zephryr is $2500. A round trip bedroom fare from PHL to CHI can be $1750. Over $4000 for a trip from PHL to DEN?????? Is this the Orient Express????? You'd have to be out of your mind to pay those fares and I'll pass. In the past we would do LD trips on points, with one segment using cash, and points. A good portion of those were also purchased. It was a win-win for both Amtrak and the rail passenger. Amtrak gave away nothing for free, the sleepers were full and the revenue was high. Our tickets were always paid for with merchant purchased points and cash.

Now they want to try and suck the blood out of you. I predict that this program is going to fail miserably.

Guess it all depends on when you want to travel. I just tried a round trip in April and it came to under $3000.

 

[Bex]

I just got back from the EB and in the words of every announcement "this train is completely full." (There was a 100 person waiting list for every breakfast and lunch, for example). There was an entire sleeper car full of a tour group going to Glacier. I presume they all paid, since it was a tour. As one does, I chatted with lots of different people, some at meals, some elsewhere. I was the only one who traveled on points. I know this is one train in high season and it's anecdotal, but obviously some folks are actually paying.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Agree with Devils advocate. Much of the dingy, broken accomodations with the dirty carpets are in fact booked by travelers that use AGR point redemptions. Eliminate these passengers and the sleepers will have plenty of space available for Amtrak to attempt to sell but will they?

Lets take a look at a rediculous fare.

A round trip ticket for a bedroom from CHI to DEN on the California Zephryr is $2500. A round trip bedroom fare from PHL to CHI can be $1750. Over $4000 for a trip from PHL to DEN?????? Is this the Orient Express????? You'd have to be out of your mind to pay those fares and I'll pass. In the past we would do LD trips on points, with one segment using cash, and points. A good portion of those were also purchased. It was a win-win for both Amtrak and the rail passenger. Amtrak gave away nothing for free, the sleepers were full and the revenue was high. Our tickets were always paid for with merchant purchased points and cash.

Now they want to try and suck the blood out of you. I predict that this program is going to fail miserably.

Guess it all depends on when you want to travel. I just tried a round trip in April and it came to under $3000.

But for the sort of people who are actually paying cash for this sort of trip, will it be worth it?

I just looked up PHL-DEN on Kayak and found round trip airfare in first class for about $1000. For a couple, let's say $2000 round trip. That same couple would then have $1000 to $2000 (depending on which Amtrak fare you're comparing it to) to spend on hotels and food over the same span. If you're spending first class money and want a first class experience, it's really hard to argue that the Amtrak experience even compares.

One of the things I've always liked about AGR is that it allowed us to basically travel first class for the price of a coach seat on an airplane. Sure, it took longer and wasn't really "first class", but the scenery is a lot better. To me, it was a very worthwhile tradeoff. I'm not sure if that tradeoff is going to continue to be worthwhile if Amtrak travel now costs two or three times as much as flying.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I agree that one would have to be really wealthy or nutscto pay thousands of dollars to ride a LD Train run by Amtrak!

The Orient Express,IP Pullman trips, PV trips, Rocky Mountaineer,the Canadian (in season) etc etc, Yeah!

Much as today's flying is kicked around ( and justifiably so) a First Class Air ticket or even Coach would be the prudent and affordable way to travel, its just a few hours, not the 40-60 Hours required on a LD Train for twice to three times as much!

Honestly, I wouldn't pay those outrageous Amtrak fares even if I was as Rich ( allegedly) as Trump the Entertainer!

 

[Ryan]

Agree with Devils advocate. Much of the dingy, broken accomodations with the dirty carpets are in fact booked by travelers that use AGR point redemptions. Eliminate these passengers and the sleepers will have plenty of space available for Amtrak to attempt to sell but will they?

What is the breakdown between number of paid passengers and number of AGR passengers in sleeping cars?