Amtrak test train and NS speed increases in AL

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

NS has increased train speeds along the Crescent route between Tuscaloosa and Birmingham. Starting today Amtrak will run 79mph on 20 miles of track, up from as low as 30mph in some areas. NS is responding to complaints about trains taking too long to pass through Birmingham suburbs.

Amtrak sent a test train consisting of 2 Superliners and 2 P-42s operating in push-pull mode to help NS calibrate the crossing gates for the higher speeds. The test train has been operating over this section since the 25th at speeds of up to 90mph with NS signal crews on hand to test the gates.

The link below is to a news article talking about one 12 mi segment in the Bessemer, AL area.....

Link

“To expedite the movement of freight trains through Birmingham, Midfield, Fairfield, Lipscomb, and Bessemer, Ala., Norfolk Southern Railway will increase maximum track speed at 27 highway-rail grade crossings beginning Monday, Sept. 28, 2009.”
“Train speeds at the following locations will increase in three increments from 30 mph to 50 mph on Sept. 28-29, 2009; from 50 mph to 60 mph on Oct. 12-13, and from 60 mph to 79 mph for passenger trains on Oct 26-27: 4th Place N, Center Street, 14th Place SW, 15th Place SW, 15th Way SW, Pearson/Jefferson, 17th Street SW, 17th Way SW, 24th Street SW, 31st Street SW, 40th Street SW, 50th Street SW, 54th Street SW, 15th Street, 5th Street S, 32nd Street, 20th Street, 19th Street, 18th Street, 16th Street, 15th Street, 14th Street – SR 150, 9th Street, 7th Street, 4th Street, 1st Street and Division Street.”

“The crossing warning devices at these locations have been adjusted to activate for faster-moving trains.”

I will be on #20 tomorrow going from Tuscaloosa to Anniston to visit family on the second NB run at the new speed.

From what I understand this is just the beginning of NS raising speeds along this route.

 

[MattW]

WOW! I thought the poor old Crescent was on the bottom of the list. 2 P42s and 2 Superliners whizzing by at 90mph, boy that'd have been fun to see! But as for the rest of the Crescent's route, what are the speeds like?

 

[MrEd]

Seems to me DC to New York is the fastest part of the trip.

Birmingham to Atlanta always seem slow.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

WOW! I thought the poor old Crescent was on the bottom of the list. 2 P42s and 2 Superliners whizzing by at 90mph, boy that'd have been fun to see! But as for the rest of the Crescent's route, what are the speeds like?

Pretty much 79 in all the straightaways, and lower through curves. NS is pretty good about only having speed restrictions where absolutely necessary. The fastest parts are South of Tuscaloosa, the track is straight and there are no hills that require steep grades or curves, its pretty much lowland swap. The Crescent actually goes faster than most people on I-20 between TCL and MEI, people have missed it in MEI and headed straight to TCL to try to catch it only to be about 15-20mins too late. The slowest is between Anniston and Atlanta, there are brief 80mph stretches but the train barely gets to that speed before it has to slow for a curve, some curves are rated for a max speed of 35mph. North of ATL they make good time through the night on mostly double track with few curves.

I have noticed the Crescent has a lot of unnecessary recovery time in places which makes the train seem slower, Amtrak could probably take out 4 hrs of time on the schedule and the Crescent run fine. The last few times I've been on it we arrived early at every station and had to wait til departure. The longest was on #19 at ATL we sat for over an hour.

For example: #19 takes 73mins to travel the 55mi from BHM to Tuscaloosa, while it takes #20 103mins to travel the same distance, per the new timetable, that means there are at least 30mins spare time NB between TCL and BHM. Now when you add the fact that #19 has arrived up to 20mins early at TCL that brings you up to 50mins spare time for a 55mi stretch. Also, the fact that #20 has been about 30mins late at TCL and gained enough time to arrive 20mins early in BHM, you can easily see the over padding on this section.

I used this for an example because I live between the two stops, but I'm sure there are many more instances, some may be even show more of an over use of padding.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Padding is most noticeable at the last smaller stop before a larger city. For example, between Gainesville and Atlanta.

There is about 25 minutes spare time southbound between Gainesville and Atlanta. I have seen it about 25 minutes early into ATL many times.

As useful as padding is to absorb delay, it does make the train seem extremely "slow" when it arrives really early and sits in a station what seems forever to passengers who do not know how the schedule works. Like "what the heck are we doing here? Why don't we move?"

 

[had8ley]

WOW! I thought the poor old Crescent was on the bottom of the list. 2 P42s and 2 Superliners whizzing by at 90mph, boy that'd have been fun to see! But as for the rest of the Crescent's route, what are the speeds like?

For example: #19 takes 73mins to travel the 55mi from BHM to Tuscaloosa, while it takes #20 103mins to travel the same distance, per the new timetable, that means there are at least 30mins spare time NB between TCL and BHM. Now when you add the fact that #19 has arrived up to 20mins early at TCL that brings you up to 50mins spare time for a 55mi stretch. Also, the fact that #20 has been about 30mins late at TCL and gained enough time to arrive 20mins early in BHM, you can easily see the over padding on this section.

I used this for an example because I live between the two stops, but I'm sure there are many more instances, some may be even show more of an over use of padding.

Don't forget #19 and # 20 have to meet between TCL and BHM and sometimes it involves #19 heading into Bryant and then backing out after # 20 gets by. This takes some time to accomplish.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

WOW! I thought the poor old Crescent was on the bottom of the list. 2 P42s and 2 Superliners whizzing by at 90mph, boy that'd have been fun to see! But as for the rest of the Crescent's route, what are the speeds like?

For example: #19 takes 73mins to travel the 55mi from BHM to Tuscaloosa, while it takes #20 103mins to travel the same distance, per the new timetable, that means there are at least 30mins spare time NB between TCL and BHM. Now when you add the fact that #19 has arrived up to 20mins early at TCL that brings you up to 50mins spare time for a 55mi stretch. Also, the fact that #20 has been about 30mins late at TCL and gained enough time to arrive 20mins early in BHM, you can easily see the over padding on this section.

I used this for an example because I live between the two stops, but I'm sure there are many more instances, some may be even show more of an over use of padding.

Don't forget #19 and # 20 have to meet between TCL and BHM and sometimes it involves #19 heading into Bryant and then backing out after # 20 gets by. This takes some time to accomplish.

Hadley, do you remember the very bad two passenger train wreck beteeen Tuscaloosa and BHM in the early 50's?

This was when the Crescent went from NY to NOL via ATL, Montgomery and Mobile'.

The train which went from NY to NOL via BHM and Meridian was called the Southerner.

The Crescent was on those tracks that day because it had been detoured around it's Montgomery and Mobile route,probably a freight derailment.

Anyway the Crescent-- I think in the southbound direction-- ran into the northbound Southerner. I could be wrong about the directions but you get the idea. There was quite a loss of life. Pragmatically it was unfortunate also because both trains were in their fresh new stainless steel equipment less than two years old.

I know for sure it was not both Southerners, it was definately the Crescent in one direction, the Southerner in the other.

 

[MrEd]

bill,

Wasnt that a wreck with the Royal Plam train ?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

bill,



Wasnt that a wreck with the Royal Plam train ?

You are talking about a separate wreck. The Royal Palm was a Cincinnati Chattanoga Atlanta Florida train would not be in Alabama hardly even if detoured.

I do think it and the Ponce de Leon had a wreck sometime,I sure do.

But not this wreck, I have an actual article on this wreck somewhere. Purely an "Alabama thing".

 

[Donctor]

As useful as padding is to absorb delay, it does make the train seem extremely "slow" when it arrives really early and sits in a station what seems forever to passengers who do not know how the schedule works. Like "what the heck are we doing here? Why don't we move?"

I know a number of smokers who are thrilled to pieces when this occurs.

The last time I took the Crescent it was a little bit behind schedule, and to make up time the crew ignored all but three smoking stops.

 

[George Harris]

Look up ICC historical accident reports, click on 1951, then look down the list to Southern Railway and click on the second one.

The collision occured on November 25, 1951, located just north of the north switch of the siding at Woodstock, Alabama. The detouring Crescent was operating as a second section of the Southerner. Here are some quotes from the report.

SUMMARYDate:..................November 25, 1951

Railroad:.............Southern

Location:.............Woodstock, Ala.

Kind of accident:..Head-end collision

Trains involved:.............Passenger...........................Passenger

Train numbers:...................48.................................Second 47

Engine numbers:....Diesel-electric unit 2923.........Diesel-electric units 2915 and 2810

Consist:...........................8 cars................................13 cars

Speeds:........................Standing..............................45 m. p. h.

Operation:............Signal indications

Track:..................Single; tangent; level

Weather:..............Clear

Time:...................2:35 p.m.

Casualties:...........17 killed; 68 injured

Cause:.................Failure to operate north-bound train in accordance with signal indication

On November 25, 1951, there was a head-end collision between two passenger trains on the Southern Railway at Woodstock, Ala., which resulted in the death of 15 passengers, 1 road foreman of engines and 1 train-service employee, and the injury of 52 passengers, 10 dining-car employees, 1 passenger-traffic employee, and 5 train-service employees. This accident was investigated in conjunction with representatives of the Alabama Public Service Commission.

Location of Accident and Method of Operation
This accident occurred on that part of the Alabama Great Southern Division extending between Meridian, Miss., and Birmingham, Ala., 152.4 miles. In the vicinity of the point of accident this is a single-track line, over which trains are operated by signal indications supplemented by an intermittent inductive automatic train-stop system. At Woodstock, Ala. 123.1 miles north of Meridian, a siding 1.62 miles in length parallels the main track on the east. The north switch of this siding is 3,389 feet north of the station. The accident occurred on the main track at a point 101 feet north of the north siding-switch. From the north there are, in succession, a tangent 2,885 feet in length, a l degree 30' curve to the right 1,301 feet, and a tangent 124 feet to the point of accident and 2,163 feet southward. From the north the grade is 0.71 percent descending 4,600 feet, then there is a vertical curve 800 feet followed by practically level track 410 feet to the point of accident.

Controlled signal 75R at Kimbrell, the first station north of Woodstock, automatic signals 1673 and 1699, and controlled signal 73R at Woodstock, governing south-bound movements, are located, respectively, 6.45 miles, 4.34 miles, 1.79 miles north and 82 feet south of the point of accident. Controlled signals 75R and 73R are of the two-unit searchlight type. Automatic signals 1673 and 1699 are of the one-arm semaphore type. Controlled signal 73LC, governing north-bound movements from the siding at Woodstock, is located east of the siding and 270.5 feet south of the north siding-switch. This signal is a one-unit dwarf searchlight type. All controlled signals are continuously lighted and all automatic signals are approach lighted.

. . . .

These signals form a part of a traffic-control system extending between Burstall and Tuscaloosa, Ala., located, respectively, 16.3 miles north and 26.1 miles south of Woodstock. This system was placed in service on October 10, 1951. The control machine is located in the train dispatcher's office at Birmingham.

Speed limit was 80 mph (allowable since the line had (at that time) an automatic train stop system in place.)

Note the consists of the trains:

No 48: the northbound Southerner, at that time still an all coach train

No. 48, a north-bound first-class passenger train, consisted of Diesel-electric unit 2923, one passenger-baggage car, one coach, one lounge coach, three coaches, one dining car and one tavern car, in the order named. All cars were of lightweight steel construction and were equipped with tightlock couplers.

This train would become much longer at Atlanta.
2nd 47; the detoured southbound Crescent. Although the train carried the number 37 north of Atlanta, since it was off its normal route is was being operated as a second section of the Southerner. South of Atlanta, its normal route was A&WP-WRA-L&N via Montgomery and Mobile, so train No. 37 was not in the timetable on this territory. Even though it was called an L&N train in this report on the normal route that was only true south of Montgomery, Ala.

Second 47, a south-bound first-class passenger train of the Louisville and Nashville Railroad, consisted of Diesel-electric units 2915 and 2801, coupled in multiple-unit control, one mail car, one baggage-dormitory car, three coaches, one dining car, and seven sleeping cars, in the order named. All cars were of lightweight steel construction, and. were equipped with tightlock couplers. Because of a damaged bridge on the line of the Louisvil1e and Nashville Railroad this train was being detoured over the Southern Railway, was being hauled by a Southern Railway locomotive, and was being operated by a Southern Railway crew.

North of Atlanta, the Crescent carried no coaches, so these were added at Atlanta. Also, at Atlanta several sleepers would have been dropped, but even with that it still had seven sleeping cars.
It appears from the discussion in the accident report that the engineer of No. 48 did not anticipate meeting both sections of No. 47 at the Woodstock siding, so after meeting the first section, either did not see or did not properly read the signal at the departing end of the siding. Why the ATS did not stop the train is uncertain.

 

[MrEd]

That is a horrible accident. I hope there are safety measures in place to reduce chance of this while I am on the crescent. With the increased speed of 90 in this area any accident would be bad.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

WOW! I thought the poor old Crescent was on the bottom of the list. 2 P42s and 2 Superliners whizzing by at 90mph, boy that'd have been fun to see! But as for the rest of the Crescent's route, what are the speeds like?

For example: #19 takes 73mins to travel the 55mi from BHM to Tuscaloosa, while it takes #20 103mins to travel the same distance, per the new timetable, that means there are at least 30mins spare time NB between TCL and BHM. Now when you add the fact that #19 has arrived up to 20mins early at TCL that brings you up to 50mins spare time for a 55mi stretch. Also, the fact that #20 has been about 30mins late at TCL and gained enough time to arrive 20mins early in BHM, you can easily see the over padding on this section.

I used this for an example because I live between the two stops, but I'm sure there are many more instances, some may be even show more of an over use of padding.

Don't forget #19 and # 20 have to meet between TCL and BHM and sometimes it involves #19 heading into Bryant and then backing out after # 20 gets by. This takes some time to accomplish.

I was on #20 today and that was the situation, that stub end siding at Bryant seems too close to the main. It looked like half the normal distance between tracks. btw, every conductor I've talked to hates doing it that way at bryant. They prefer meeting at the siding between CP Fleming and CP Coaling. #19 would normally take the siding, and #20 blast by on the main at 79 on the S end of the siding and slowing to 50 by the N end.

Ideally the trains should meet between CP Tuscaloosa and Crabtree for quickest passing time, it is the closest "real" siding to the station. This however would require a schedule shift to make #19 run about 10 mins ahead of #20 at TCL.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

That is a horrible accident. I hope there are safety measures in place to reduce chance of this while I am on the crescent. With the increased speed of 90 in this area any accident would be bad.

I live very close to Woodstock, and remember all of the signals listed in the report being called on the way through.

The track speed only increased to 79, the test train ran at 90mph with an FRA waiver in lieu of PTC ,so that NS would be able to besure the crossing gates would respond correctly and with the right timings for 79mph, the extra 11mph was just for good measure.

 

[George Harris]

That is a horrible accident. I hope there are safety measures in place to reduce chance of this while I am on the crescent. With the increased speed of 90 in this area any accident would be bad.

?????

Why worry?

Do you worry about a road accident that happend near 60 years ago when you drive by where it happened?

By the way, the increased speed is to 79 mph. Also, this is the general vicinity of the area of the speed increase, not necessarily at it. Much of the Crescent route already has a speed limit of 79 mph, curves and other factors permitting.

 

[George Harris]

I was on #20 today and that was the situation, that stub end siding at Bryant seems too close to the main. It looked like half the normal distance between tracks. btw, every conductor I've talked to hates doing it that way at bryant. They prefer meeting at the siding between CP Fleming and CP Coaling. #19 would normally take the siding, and #20 blast by on the main at 79 on the S end of the siding and slowing to 50 by the N end.
Ideally the trains should meet between CP Tuscaloosa and Crabtree for quickest passing time, it is the closest "real" siding to the station. This however would require a schedule shift to make #19 run about 10 mins ahead of #20 at TCL.

Track centers at Bryant are unlikely to be anything under 13'-0", simply because that was the standard when most of the tracks in this area were originally built. Some parts of the Northeast Corridor are closer than this, down to around 12'-8", maybe a little less. Generally, anything built new today will be at spacings of 15'-0" or more.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I know a number of smokers who are thrilled to pieces when this occurs.
The last time I took the Crescent it was a little bit behind schedule, and to make up time the crew ignored all but three smoking stops.

So what? Doing anything for the benefit of smokers is disgusting. Smokers are filthy, disgusting people insisting on sharing their habbit with the world around them. I personally think we should set up smoking stations where smokers have to go through an air lock and decontamination process to go into a room where they can smoke. Smoking in public or smoking in a home or any building with minors present should be considered a capital offense requiring summary execution by any witnessing officer.

Better to kill the smoker then to risk them killing someone else.

 

[Donctor]

So what? Doing anything for the benefit of smokers is disgusting. Smokers are filthy, disgusting people insisting on sharing their habbit with the world around them. I personally think we should set up smoking stations where smokers have to go through an air lock and decontamination process to go into a room where they can smoke.

Smokers aren't "filthy, disgusting people," but rather decent people who have made filthy, disgusting choices (excepting parents who smoke near children). And not all of us insist on sharing our "habbit" with the world around us. If there are people within 50 feet of me who are not also smoking, I don't light up.

Smoking in public or smoking in a home or any building with minors present should be considered a capital offense requiring summary execution by any witnessing officer.

I don't agree that it should be a capital offense, but I do agree that there should be some law against it. Children shouldn't be exposed to second-hand smoke.

Better to kill the smoker then to risk them killing someone else.

I agree. Smoking is a choice that people like me make, and there's no reason to impose a major health risk upon others.

Plus, what you're ignoring is that smokers comprise a decent percentage of Amtrak's ridership. Like them or not, Amtrak still has to keep them in mind (and in some cases, plan around them). Whether or not you think smoking is okay, you should be aware of the truth.

 

[battalion51]

I echo the sentiments of Amtking. While I'm not a smoker myself, a large number of my fraternity brothers and colleagues in the hotel business are. I don't think that the folks you check in with at a hotel or are served by in a restaurant you usually regard as "filthy disgusting people." Not to mention a large portion of Amtrak's work force is made up of smokers. There's great odds that at least one of the three or four folks that are operating the train you're on is a smoker. So while I agree with the sentiment that I hate walking through second hand smoke, I would not say it should be an criminal act by any stretch of the mind (under normal circumstances).

 

[Bob Dylan]

I know a number of smokers who are thrilled to pieces when this occurs.
The last time I took the Crescent it was a little bit behind schedule, and to make up time the crew ignored all but three smoking stops.

So what? Doing anything for the benefit of smokers is disgusting. Smokers are filthy, disgusting people insisting on sharing their habbit with the world around them. I personally think we should set up smoking stations where smokers have to go through an air lock and decontamination process to go into a room where they can smoke. Smoking in public or smoking in a home or any building with minors present should be considered a capital offense requiring summary execution by any witnessing officer.

Better to kill the smoker then to risk them killing someone else.

As an ex-smoker I find that the smell of stale smoke and second hand smoke to be nauseous, however I still like to get off the train for "air and exercise"

breaks with the smokers and the OBS! Im not religious @ all but the old time religion folks had a saying that sounds right: "hate the sin but not the sinner!"

As usual GML uses hyperbole to make a point, even WC Fields wasnt all bad! ("Anyone who dislikes dogs and children can't be all bad!" :lol: )

I personally think that the breaks and dwell time on LD trains could be better planned (example: on the Eagles in DAL and FTW sometimes an hour in each station or more, other trains no stops for hundreds of miles, hours and hours! How about a smokebreak in beautiful Maricopa or Yuma? :lol: )

It probably wont be long until the anti-smoking fanatics (yes, I know its un-healthy etc.) get smoking banned by OBS and passengers around stations and trains, then the next step is to ban smoking period! Theres an idea, wonder if it would work for alcohol and other drugs? :lol:

Lets create a cigarette mafia to go with the other drug cartels by banning smoking and filling the prisons and death row with these pathetic,disgusting criminals! <_<

 

[SRJ Rails]

I know a number of smokers who are thrilled to pieces when this occurs.
The last time I took the Crescent it was a little bit behind schedule, and to make up time the crew ignored all but three smoking stops.

So what? Doing anything for the benefit of smokers is disgusting. Smokers are filthy, disgusting people insisting on sharing their habbit with the world around them. I personally think we should set up smoking stations where smokers have to go through an air lock and decontamination process to go into a room where they can smoke. Smoking in public or smoking in a home or any building with minors present should be considered a capital offense requiring summary execution by any witnessing officer.

Better to kill the smoker then to risk them killing someone else.

As an ex-smoker I find that the smell of stale smoke and second hand smoke to be nauseous, however I still like to get off the train for "air and exercise"

breaks with the smokers and the OBS! Im not religious @ all but the old time religion folks had a saying that sounds right: "hate the sin but not the sinner!"

As usual GML uses hyperbole to make a point, even WC Fields wasnt all bad! ("Anyone who dislikes dogs and children can't be all bad!" :lol: )

I personally think that the breaks and dwell time on LD trains could be better planned (example: on the Eagles in DAL and FTW sometimes an hour in each station or more, other trains no stops for hundreds of miles, hours and hours! How about a smokebreak in beautiful Maricopa or Yuma? :lol: )

It probably wont be long until the anti-smoking fanatics (yes, I know its un-healthy etc.) get smoking banned by OBS and passengers around stations and trains, then the next step is to ban smoking period! Theres an idea, wonder if it would work for alcohol and other drugs? :lol:

Lets create a cigarette mafia to go with the other drug cartels by banning smoking and filling the prisons and death row with these pathetic,disgusting criminals! <_<

This is my first post since joining, I hope I get the mechanics of this as well as the spirit correct. I have never smoked and get watery eyes and a runny nose even from second hand smoke. The stuff is carried back on the train on clothing and such. Having said that, I think it is a little strong to describe smokers as viewed above. It's an addiction, and one the tobaco companies cleverly craft. Maybe a jug or two of Fabreeze in each stair well might help mitigate the residuals. The potential problem with accomodating smokers, is that it is just a matter of time before the accomodators are in court for helping the smokers kill themselves. (IMHO) This is off topic, but is there a post that defines all the things like IMHO?

 

[George Harris]

In reading the GML's rant about smokers, we must remember that he has described himself as a socialist, and most of the countries that have described themselves as such have a long history of killing off those who disagree with the policies of their government.

I hesitate to ask what other groups of people he would like to see eliminated from the planet. I would likely fall in one or more than one of the catagories.

We seem to have gotten a good long ways from the initial subject of this thread.

 

[George Harris]

Back to the subjedct at hand:

In the Greensboro to Charlotte section of the route, the state of North Carolina has funded several speed ups. Also, they are restoring some of the double track sections that were removed in the past. These speed-ups ahve worked to introduce som slack in the Crescent's schedule that was no longer there.

 

[TVRM610]

The track speed only increased to 79, the test train ran at 90mph with an FRA waiver in lieu of PTC ,so that NS would be able to besure the crossing gates would respond correctly and with the right timings for 79mph, the extra 11mph was just for good measure.

While it's true that the track speed has currently been raised to 79, why were they testing trains at 90 if they are not looking at increasing the speed to 90 at some time? I don't believe that every crossing gate that has 79m.p.h. speeds has been tested at 90. Seems to me they were programming and testing the gates for 90 m.p.h. service because they plan on putting these speeds in at some time, or were at least testing these speeds for a reason other than "11mph just for good measure".

I'm hoping that many portions of the Crescent route get upgraded to 90 soon....

 

[ExtonFlyer]

cool thread - hoping for more conversation about the Crescent speed increases and less about smoking!!

Bet it must have been cool to see Superliners barreling through an area that usually doesn't see them. I can only imagine what I would have thought if I saw a Superliner set heading up the Philadelphia Main Line!!!