Amtrak's Cost for NEC Electricity vs Diesel Fuel

[BCL]

Government agencies are usually sales tax exempt, and there are provisions for non highway use of diesel since the highway use tax provisions normally don't apply.

It's possible to buy taxed on-road diesel and get a refund of fuel taxes.

http://www.journalofaccountancy.com/issues/2011/mar/20103438.html

The Disneyland Railroad uses biodiesel extracted from their own restaurants. However, it's B98, and I've heard they don't bother getting anything except regular taxed diesel.

 

[PVD]

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source?

In 2015, the United States generated about 4 trillion kilowatthours of electricity.1 About 67% of the electricity generated was from fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, and petroleum).

Major energy sources and percent share of total U.S. electricity generation in 2015:1

• Coal = 33%

Natural gas = 33%
Nuclear = 20%
Hydropower = 6%
Other renewables = 7%

• Biomass = 1.6%

Geothermal = 0.4%
Solar = 0.6%
Wind = 4.7%

Petroleum = 1%
Other gases = <1%

 

[PVD]

That chart is a national chart, regional or state numbers can vary greatly based on the resources of that area.

 

[BCL]

That chart is a national chart, regional or state numbers can vary greatly based on the resources of that area.

California uses almost no coal-fired power plants, although apparently some electricity from coal might get to California via the grid. And hydro is relatively high, but that's because the terrain can support a lot more.

http://www.energy.ca.gov/almanac/electricity_data/electric_generation_capacity.html

I'd think the hydropower numbers would be lower along the East Coast.

 

[west point]

Safe Harbor generates 60 Hz as well, that power is sold to the grid. It also has 25 Hz generators that have first priority on the hydro power.

There was a reduction of power demand from peak PRR use and then Conrail. Safe harbor rebuilt one of there 25 Hz generators to 60 Hz. Then as the Amtrak, Marc, SEPTA, & NJT needing more peaking due to Acelas, more regionals, commuter trains some rotary converters were built to convert 60 Hz to 25 Hz. Amtrak continues to add more conversion especially at Mutchen.

 

[PVD]

Hydro tends to be lower on the East Coast, but NY does have some large hydro (Robert Moses/Lewiston Pump Storage at Niagara and FDR/Massena and Blenheim/Gilboa) as well as some smaller hydro ops. NY is the largest hydro power producer East of the Rockies (2015)

 

[PRR 60]

Cho Cho -- PRR is absolutely correct. One additional item on the 138Kv transmission lines.

they are similar to your power feed to your home. They are 69Kv to ground each and 138KV across the two main lines

That is also true of commercial three-phase transmission lines. A nominal 230kV line is 230kV phase-to-phase. A 230kV line is 133kV phase-to-ground.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Hydro tends to be lower on the East Coast, but NY does have some large hydro (Robert Moses/Lewiston Pump Storage at Niagara and FDR/Massena and Blenheim/Gilboa) as well as some smaller hydro ops. NY is the largest hydro power producer East of the Rockies (2015)

So the derived claim here, is that all the electric power used throughout the NEC, is from non-fossil fuel sources (hydro, nuclear, wind, solar, etc)?

 

[jis]

I see that now it is time to ask silly strawman questions . Since when did natural gas stop being fossil fuel?

 

[A Voice]

I see that now it is time to ask silly strawman questions . Since when did natural gas stop being fossil fuel?

Well, perhaps if we could harvest the (methane) emissions from the backside of a cow.....

 

[BCL]

I see that now it is time to ask silly strawman questions . Since when did natural gas stop being fossil fuel?

Well, perhaps if we could harvest the (methane) emissions from the backside of a cow.....

That's actually happening. They call it a fartpack.

However, the more practical method right now is to put the feces through a digester that captures methane. Most cow methane doesn't come out in the form or farts, but as the feces decompose.

http://www.farmpower.com/Digester%20operation.html

 

[PVD]

In NYC we have started using anaerobic digesters at some of the sewage treatment plants, and also tap some landfills. At the sewage plants, the fuel collected mostly gets used to fire boilers for plant ops, and has a lower btu yield than commercial supply. Also, Mass, RI, CT NJ Del, and MD grid sourced power is part of the mix. We have 4 operating Nukes in NY, I'm not sure of the other states.

 

[Karl1459]

The Milwaukee Road Olympic Hiawatha was an electric passenger route through the Bitterroot mountains that went from Chicago to Seattle. The energy savings was not enough to save the road and when the MR went belly up, no class 1 stepped in to purchased the line. An electric line was just not attractive to the freight railroads. Instead everything was scrapped and sadly only one frequently clogged CHI-SEA EB route remains.

In retrospect the Milwaukee Road suffered from a case of incompetent (or malicious, depending on opinion) accounting where certain expenses were double billed to the western extension, and corporate thinking the midwest branch lines were actually profitable. This led to the decision to abandon. The electrification suffered from the Othello-Avery gap so locomotives had to be changed out which was a costly hassle. The Milwaukee was never able to raise enough cash to close that gap. While there was a huge savings over running steam vs electric it just was not enough to pay for the investment. At the end the electrification was just simply worn out and would have required a complete rebuilding so scrapping of the electric was a given anyway.

The ex-NP lines Auburn-Pasco-Spokane-Missoula-Helena-Bozeman-Bismark-Fargo exist, though not all with BNSF. Amtrak did a study for Montana on restoring service with the usual "if you want it you have to pay for it" caveat. It has not happened.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Once upon a time, Amtrak had its own electric supply system. It became very old and so Amtrak switched to commercial power.

Here's an article about special, commercial equipment which is used to supply electricity to Amtrak. And since the equipment needs replacing, the electric suppliers want to raise Amtrak's rates greatly.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/Amtrak-says-electric-company-wants-to-take-it-for-a-ride.html

jb

 

[west point]

The cost of the electricity is one factor. Another is the electricity that it and NJT, SEPTA, & MARC ( until it goes all diesel ) uses but does not have to buy. Regeneration is becoming more and more efficient. SEPTA & NJT still do not have all their equipment that is regeneration but now Amtrak does with the exclusive use of ACS-64s.

So as more commuter operations regen will cause less billing. Amtrak on the other hand as it is able to eliminate any slow sections then slowing with regen for that section will disappear. Confusing ??

 

[John Bobinyec]

Amtrak on the other hand as it is able to eliminate any slow sections then slowing with regen for that section will disappear. Confusing ??

Yes - just the last sentence.

jb

 

[PRR 60]

The cost of the electricity is one factor. Another is the electricity that it and NJT, SEPTA, & MARC ( until it goes all diesel ) uses but does not have to buy. Regeneration is becoming more and more efficient. SEPTA & NJT still do not have all their equipment that is regeneration but now Amtrak does with the exclusive use of ACS-64s.

So as more commuter operations regen will cause less billing. Amtrak on the other hand as it is able to eliminate any slow sections then slowing with regen for that section will disappear. Confusing ??

Maintaining a constant speed is always more energy efficient than slowing then accelerating, even with regenerative braking. The extra energy used during acceleration more than offsets the small energy returned during deceleration.

 

[jis]

Actually slowing and accelerating in coasting following the gradient contour should be somewhat better than forced maintenance of constant speed, but your point is still valid in most cases.

I have read that the operators of TGVs into Gare Montparnasse have a competition on how far out of Paris they can cut power and coast into Montparnasse while still maintaining schedule. Apparently the French are big into minimizing energy use in the way they train their train operators.

 

[neroden]

Hydro tends to be lower on the East Coast, but NY does have some large hydro (Robert Moses/Lewiston Pump Storage at Niagara and FDR/Massena and Blenheim/Gilboa) as well as some smaller hydro ops. NY is the largest hydro power producer East of the Rockies (2015)

Yep, but we use that power upstate -- there's enough demand upstate that it doesn't generally make it downstate. I'm all in favor of electrifying the Empire Corridor, but sigh...

 

[PVD]

A surprising amount does make it downstate, it is forced by the state legislature so they can promise low cost power for "economic development" and some is also passed through for government use to keep costs down. It's a regular dance in Albany to debate how NY Power Authority production is divvied up.