Andy Byford's plan for Penn Station

[jis]

There are two issues that thru-running is intended to address - the first is simply platform space within Penn Station. Having a place outside of the station itself to store trains instead of needing to use station tracks for train storage and having a way to get those trains to those storage locations (be it Sunnyside or any other yard) will significantly address that issue, even if none of the railroads/agencies who provide service to Penn Station ever agree on a common piece of equipment that's usable on everyone's system.

In normal operation no consist is really stabled on the through tracks in NYP. They all pull out to Sunnyside if they are not just turned around and sent on return service. That is also the case on the stub end tracks. The entire argument is whether that can be done in six minutes or not as far as I can tell. That is the whole argument about how to allegedly get increased throughput.

The second issue thru-running potentially solves is transport of people from one part of the overall region to a different one. That does require common equipment standards. However, that's also separate from the first issue.

Agreed, this is a separate issue, and it really is a nice to have thing but not essential, since anyone can change trains and complete their journey from one side to the other.

I don't think the statement "Neither railroad has a single MU car or locomotive that can operate on each other's system and none are planned." is accurate, though - the fact that MNCR and NJT were able to (even on a limited basis) run through trains from Connecticut to the Meadowlands indicates that there's at least some equipment that is capable of running on both systems.

How does the statement about MU cars become inaccurate because a push pull train operated? They were not MU cars, so you claim is fallacious. Of course any train of unpowered cars pulled by an electric locomotive can operate on the NEC line. But that is not what the statement about MU cars was about. Similarly a train of unpowered cars powered by a dual mode ALP45DP could operate almost anywhere provided the PTC system used is compatible with what the locomotive has. There may be a problem operating them on LIRR unless the ATC code incompatibility issue has been fixed.

I think a single pair of lines run through between NJT and LIRR could be run without much additional work and equipment acquisition. It could be a simple overlay of half hourly service over a short segment on both sides, just as a random example Rahway to Jamaica where there are facilities to turn a train without interfering too much with the flow of the rest of the traffic, of course using a push-pull set using dual mode ALP45-DP and see how that goes, before starting to tear up NYP in a $10 Billion reconstruction project, which IMHO in any case should not be started until most major SOGR work is funded and completed on the NEC as currently defined by the NEC Commission.

Even where there is run through, usually all trains do not run through. Many trains terminate at terminals on both sides of the CBD. In Paris even though RER-B runs through does not mean significant Banlieu service does not terminate in Gare du Nord. Likewise RER-C and Austerlitz and Montparnasse, and RER-D at Gare du Nord and Gare de Leon. etc. In London, just because there is Thameslink, does not mean suburban trains in large numbers do not terminate at London Bridge and Kings Cross. Or for that matter even after the completion of the Elizabeth Line significant number of Suburban Service still terminate at Paddington and Liverpool Street. So this run through is not a cut and dried either all of it or none of it thing either.

 

[jamoldover]

How does the statement about MU cars become inaccurate because a push pull train operated? They were not MU cars, so you claim is fallacious. Of course any train of unpowered cars pulled by an electric locomotive can operate on the NEC line. But that is not what the statement about MU cars was about. Similarly a train of unpowered cars powered by a dual mode ALP45DP could operate almost anywhere provided the PTC system used is compatible with what the locomotive has. There may be a problem operating them on LIRR unless the ATC code incompatibility issue has been fixed.

The statement was "Neither railroad has a single MU car OR locomotive that can operate on each other's system and none are planned" (emphasis mine). My response was not "there are MU cars that will work". My response was that a claim that there was no compatible equipment of any kind was an incorrect statement. Push-pull implies at the very least a locomotive.

 

[PVD]

Labor agreements would be a joy to work out. Qualifications as well.

 

[Amtrak25]

Labor agreements would be a joy to work out. Qualifications as well.

As it is, NJT is divided into two divisions: the former Erie Lackawanna (who can enter the Newark Division east of Kearny) and all else. They would change crews in any case. But I doubt Nothink has given that much thought, as much as they don't have a clue how complicated and congested Harold interlocking is judging by their silly Vignelli schematic style map of the area, which they would thoughtlessly exacerbate, thinking this can be run just like the subway, and they have said as much. PTC prep takes 10 minutes and that is in LIRR contracts, maybe other railroads. So again Nothink strikes out with 5 minutes dwell time in one direction, 6 minutes in the other. Now their whole calculus of capacity claims to replace NYPS-South starts to collapse.

Even at Amtrak, Empire Corridor crews do not go east of Penn Station. NY Division crews deadhead the equipment to Sunnyside and back even though this has been a thing since 1991.

 

[cirdan]

Of course through running at Penn Station is quite a different animal than the Elizabeth Line. The latter added new services that run on existing infrastructure east and west of London. What he is talking about would be the equivalent in London of having GWR trains run through to Shenfield or Greater Anglia to Reading. There are big technical issues in the Penn Station case that did not exist in the London case, such as the fact that LIRR is 600V DC and NJT 12 KV 25 HZ AC so you would need all new dual voltage equipment (like Metro North) for both railroads.

The Great Western main line was not electrified at all when the project for the Elizabeth line first began (with the exception of the Heathrow Express service, which was a bit of a standalone thing, and all the rest was diesel). The subsequent electrification of virtually all suburban and intercity services out of Paddington was coordinated with the Elizabeth Line project, even if these jobs were packaged as nominally separate and unconnected endeavors. So yes, this project did involve rethinking the railway on a huge scale. Which is something that very rarely happens in the UK, and is thus worthy of a lot of kudos.

In another part of London, two previously incompatible electrification systems and networks were previously connected when the abandoned Snow Hill Tunnel was reopened in 1990 (this line had been closed to passengers during WW1, but continued to see freight usage for several decades, with the tracks finally being taken out in the 1970s). The reopened line permitted thru running between the commuter lines north and south of the capital, for which dual voltage trains had to be specially commissioned. The lines in the north used 25kV from overhead lines whereas those to the South used 750V from third rail (and I believe at that time even 600V in places). This project was much cheaper than the Elizabeth line as it could largely re-use pre-existing infrastructure (although some heavy rebuilds were carried out at some of the stations, including realignments of the ROW and building new platforms as well as turning dead end platforms into thru platforms). It did serve as a demonstration of the utility of a cross city connection and thus served as a model or proof of concept for what later became the Elizabeth Line.

 

[jis]

The key in the success of both Thameslink and Elizabeth Line is that the entire system was rethought and train patterns were drastically changed, e.g. for Thameslink all the way out to Brighton in the south and Bedford, Cambridge and Kings Lynn and such in the north to make effective use of the link. Similarly signifcant pieces of Suburban service were gobbled up by Elizabeth Line stretching from Reading in the West to Shenfield in the East.

In New York the current problem is not really one involving digging new tunnels and stations though that would no doubt help, but creating an administrative structure that would allow the sort of coordinated redoing of suburban service out in NJ and LI. A lot can already be done to introduce meaningful subset of service involved in through running and the rest remaining as is.

Afterall Penn Station at present is mostly a through running station except track 1-4. The thing is through run suburban trains go to Sunnyside Yard and John D. Caemmerer West Side Yard, and not to other destinations. Currently it is primarily a problem of political will and organizational setup which if dealt with would create the environment for ordering appropriate equipment. Unless the socio-political problem is handled the rest won't happen.

This whole business of tens of billions of dollar project to tear down the track structure in Penn Station to replace it with fewer tracks and wider platforms, something that will take decades to achieve as it will have to be done with trains operating through the station throughout the construction period, is theoretically good, but practically a distraction which should not be funded while large chunks of SOGR issues in NEC as itemized by the NEC Commission remain unaddressed.

I think a better way to do clean through running is to create a deeper 4 or 6 track station just for through running suburban service and let Penn Station be as it is. This is the approach taken by for example the Elizabeth Line at Paddington and Liverpool Street, or the RER system in Paris at Gare du Nord, Gare de Lyon, Gare d'le Est, Gare Austerlitz etc. Again, all that after the SOGR issue on NEC are fixed. It really is a nicety more than an immediate necessity.

 

[west point]

In normal operation no consist is really stabled on the through tracks in NYP. They all pull out to Sunnyside if they are not just turned around and sent on return service. That is also the case on the stub end tracks. The entire argument is whether that can be done in six minutes or not as far as I can tell. That is the whole argument about how to allegedly get increased throughput.

I always observed NJT operations at NYPin the afternoon. As inbound would most often arrive tracks 1 - 4, A quick discharge of the few passengers then announced train #xxxx to yyy load and go . 10 - 15 total time.

 

[Amtrak25]

On weekends, there are 5 NJT trains per hour, fleeted eastbound in 23 minutes, then all westbound. Four arrive on tracks 1 thru 4, a 5th, generally an NEC one, is a random draw to tracks 9 thru 15.

I like the latter, as I can walk out the eastern end onto the LIRR concourse if track 13 and up and grab a LIRR train in 2 minutes.

Currently Track 2 does not exist, being rebuilt from the ground up.

 

[nferr]

Both NJT and the LIRR are commuter rail lines. I really don't thinks there's a massive need to have them run from LI into NJ and vice versa. Especially since they both end at the same station NYP. It's not that hard to switch trains there. Same goes for Metro North which is soon to run some trains into NYP from Connecticut. If I'm traveling past NYC from Connecticut I'm taking Amtrak.

 

[MARC Rider]

Both NJT and the LIRR are commuter rail lines. I really don't thinks there's a massive need to have them run from LI into NJ and vice versa. Especially since they both end at the same station NYP. It's not that hard to switch trains there. Same goes for Metro North which is soon to run some trains into NYP from Connecticut. If I'm traveling past NYC from Connecticut I'm taking Amtrak.

I would tend to agree with this. However much of annoyance the current setup on the trains is, driving fom New Jersey to Long Island is orders of magnitude worse. Thus I imagine that there aren't a whole lot of people who regularly travel between New Jersey and Long Island.

 

[jamoldover]

I think the point of a regional system with through-running is that it allows people who might not be willing to drive across the city to be able to live on one side of it and work on the other without increasing the amount of traffic on the roads or requiring them to have access to a reliable car.

 

[Amtrak25]

Rethink's point is to pretend LIRR and NJT can be run like a 3-boro subway line increasing thru-put to avoid building Penn Station South. In their little minds, Penn Station should be like W4th Street or Dekalb Avenue. I don't think they much care about someone's ability to take a single seat ride from Metuchen to Massapequa. That is a selling point as they have also said of travel between Murray Hill (NJ) and Murray Hill (Queens). It is to bamboozle the masses to win them over.

As much as they don't propose changing so much as a crosstie east of 7th Avenue, which would be the case if Gateway were actually a Regional Rail plan like Crossrail, and even that is not comprehensive of everything at Paddington and Liverpool St, which they don't understand either, they haven't done any NJ/LI O&D analysis.

They are simply NIMBYs, masquerading as Planners. They opposed ripping down the Hotel Pennsylvania dump, a battle they lost, and they lament the destruction of the abandoned Pennsy power house on Block 780, which they worship as the last remnant of the original Penn Station. They regard Moynihan Concourse as wonderful urban repurposing, yet don't mind at all having Amtrak passengers shlep to west of 8th Avenue, farther away from subway lines, NJT, and LIRR tracks 17 to 21, to a concourse with very limited seating that disproportionately loads the west end of trains.