Auto Train extension?

[west point]

That said, some of our group's Eastern US members do use it but a discussion subject this past winter was how useful a southern terminus somewhere near Pensacola or Mobile would be. Not everyone is headed to Orlando.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

This suggestion has merit. You caused me to ask someone just back from Panama City, Florida what his observations were for out of state autos. Many Midwest and Canadian cars surprised him.
There is plenty of real estate along the BAY line from Dothan, AL. to Panama City to build a very efficient Auto train terminal. Could be built somewhere near where BAY line crosses I-10, giving access to Pensacola, Panama City, Appalatchacoola, Fl, Tallahassee.

Dothan connects to CSX BOW line from Montgomery then on north to whatever location in Midwest. Another possibility for the future.

 

[jiml]

There is plenty of real estate along the BAY line from Dothan, AL. to Panama City to build a very efficient Auto train terminal. Could be built somewhere near where BAY line crosses I-10, giving access to Pensacola, Panama City, Appalatchacoola, Fl, Tallahassee.

Dothan connects to CSX BOW line from Montgomery then on north to whatever location in Midwest. Another possibility for the future.

Correct; the Bay Line (St. Andrews Bay railroad) parallels US-231 which, with US-331 through Defuniak Springs, are the primary access roads to the area. I remember in the early '90s thinking that it had likely had passenger service in the "golden age" of trains since the beaches had been popular for generations. Now it has only general freight.

 

[west point]

At one time there was a sleeper ar from Atlanta to Panama City. Not sure if it was C of GA to Dothan or the West point route.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

The way I look at it, the important bit isn't exactly the snowbirds or whatever. I don't care what the why is. I look at where people are paying to ship cars. There's a lot of car carriers going up and down 95 that are carrying NY and FL plates on their cargo cars. So obviously there's demand to move automobiles because people are doing it regardless of the Autotrain existing.

So if your question is "where, if possible, should a second route go," don't dabble in hypotheticals like a trucker bridge, ski traffic, or debating what snowbird destination. Figure out what corridor is the heaviest in over the road hauling for private vehicles.

My gut says Mid Atlantic to San Diego.

 

[zephyr17]

The way I look at it, the important bit isn't exactly the snowbirds or whatever. I don't care what the why is. I look at where people are paying to ship cars. There's a lot of car carriers going up and down 95 that are carrying NY and FL plates on their cargo cars. So obviously there's demand to move automobiles because people are doing it regardless of the Autotrain existing.

So if your question is "where, if possible, should a second route go," don't dabble in hypotheticals like a trucker bridge, ski traffic, or debating what snowbird destination. Figure out what corridor is the heaviest in over the road hauling for private vehicles.

My gut says Mid Atlantic to San Diego.

Virtually all private vehicle hauls by private individuals are people moving permanently, not going on vacations or business trips. People utilizing car shipping between NY and FL are still likely snowbirds, despite not using the Autotrain. Also note a significant number of hauls of plated cars on car carriers are used cars purchased by dealers at auto auctions. That pretty much leaves permanent movers, which isn't really a large traffic base nor one that generally would be a good target for rail travel. People permanently moving long distances just want to be done with the whole mess in the most expedient way possible.

So what does your digestive system suggest would be the traffic base/marketing target? In terms of basic demographics first, then maybe endpoints derived from the target group(s).

 

[Alexandria Nick]

You are actually describing who I'd target. I don't really care about repeat business (although there would be some), only capturing the numbers of people who are shipping or driving themselves across country. It could be a symptom of living in the DC area, but I know a remarkable number of people who have done exactly this multiple times. Military especially.

 

[zephyr17]

You are actually describing who I'd target. I don't really care about repeat business (although there would be some), only capturing the numbers of people who are shipping or driving themselves across country. It could be a symptom of living in the DC area, but I know a remarkable number of people who have done exactly this multiple times. Military especially.

I'd say for most of the country that is far too much of a niche market to support a service. And one where even the most enthusiastic train rider is likely not to use it unless it fits plans absolutely perfectly. The logistics of long distance moves are tough for most of us for whom it is a once or twice in a lifetime event. Personally, when moving from Southern California to Washington, I never once considered fitting the Coast Starlight into our plans, despite the fact I am an inveterate train rider and a couple of public transport shuttle runs proved necessary.

I don't think long distance movers are enough of a traffic base.

 

[jis]

I'd say for most of the country that is far too much of a niche market to support a service. And one where even the most enthusiastic train rider is likely not to use it unless it fits plans absolutely perfectly. The logistics of long distance moves are tough for most of us for whom it is a once or twice in a lifetime event. Personally, when moving from Southern California to Washington, I never once considered fitting the Coast Starlight into our plans, despite the fact I am an inveterate train rider and a couple of public transport shuttle runs proved necessary.

I don't think long distance movers are enough of a traffic base.

I agree with your assessment. As it turns out Northeast to Florida is one of few niches where a self standing exclusive Auto Train can be operated effectively, since it can be done with just two consists, and 2+2 sets of OBS crew, and 2 operating zones for T&E. This creates a very sweet spot when put together with the fact that this also happens to be one of the most traveled geographical region pairs in the US and the Western Hemisphere.

Now whether and how a tag on type of Auto operation can be made to work between select other locations is an open issue, and quite hard to guess how that will go down. My suspicion is until the highways systems get congested an order of magnitude more, they won;t quite work. But it is just a guess.

 

[tgstubbs1]

You are actually describing who I'd target. I don't really care about repeat business (although there would be some), only capturing the numbers of people who are shipping or driving themselves across country. It could be a symptom of living in the DC area, but I know a remarkable number of people who have done exactly this multiple times. Military especially.

I checked out some car shippers once. They were a lot more expensive than Autotrain and they ask for up to a week to deliver. They also prefer your vehicle completely empty.

 

[cocojacoby]

I’m far less knowledgeable that you folks, but I believe the reason the AT doesn’t travel farther N or NE is the height of the tunnels will not accommodate the Superliner II cars.
Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

CSX is clearing the route for doublestacks so it will be possible in the near future. My last Amtrak trip was on the Auto Train southbound (I drove from Boston) and I felt it would be great if it left from New Jersey since the traffic north of Richmond was absolutely ridiculous. I have a friend who just drove back from Massachusetts and she said that the traffic is now pretty bad for the entire trip on 95 even through the southern states. So I think Amtrak would do very well with a train from the New Jersey area but I do have to mention that the Auto Train has been seriously downgraded over the last few years and that has changed people's opinions down here in Florida. It used to be a pleasant "land cruise" experience but now it's more like a utilitarian "ferry".

 

[Cuzzant]

CSX is clearing the route for doublestacks so it will be possible in the near future. My last Amtrak trip was on the Auto Train southbound (I drove from Boston) and I felt it would be great if it left from New Jersey since the traffic north of Richmond was absolutely ridiculous. I have a friend who just drove back from Massachusetts and she said that the traffic is now pretty bad for the entire trip on 95 even through the southern states. So I think Amtrak would do very well with a train from the New Jersey area but I do have to mention that the Auto Train has been seriously downgraded over the last few years and that has changed people's opinions down here in Florida. It used to be a pleasant "land cruise" experience but now it's more like a utilitarian "ferry".

The worms will have me eaten before I ever see a NJ terminal for the AT.

The AT experience has certainly degraded over the past few years. In 2013 we traveled in a sleeper, boarded early, had wine and cheese in dining car, and I *think* movies still playing after it got dark. Also food for coach riders. And reasonable pricing.

Pricing has risen and priced many out of the sleepers. Now it’s nearly $4000 RT if staying in a bedroom, plus car both ways. That’s of course paying full freight. Many of the rail cars are showing their age, and Amtrak has been slow to upgrade.

And Amtrak’s new fare ticketing makes it harder to make changes when fare go on sale, with the new change and cancellation fees. Travel Guide to Amtrak Train Fares

BUT, they are the only game in town when it comes to getting you, your car, and a boat load of “things” to sunny FL

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

CSX is clearing the route for doublestacks so it will be possible in the near future. My last Amtrak trip was on the Auto Train southbound (I drove from Boston) and I felt it would be great if it left from New Jersey since the traffic north of Richmond was absolutely ridiculous. I have a friend who just drove back from Massachusetts and she said that the traffic is now pretty bad for the entire trip on 95 even through the southern states. So I think Amtrak would do very well with a train from the New Jersey area but I do have to mention that the Auto Train has been seriously downgraded over the last few years and that has changed people's opinions down here in Florida. It used to be a pleasant "land cruise" experience but now it's more like a utilitarian "ferry".

Interesting, it would take the Howard Street Tunnel through Baltimore, rather than the tunnel Amtrak uses. After Richmond-Raleigh is built it would be the only Amtrak on the western bypass of Richmond. Are there freight bypasses elsewhere along the route, like Savannah?

 

[west point]

IMO Once Amtrak can assign more equipment to Auto Train it will add the cars to the present 2 train sets. Once the ALCs are assigned to the trains the extra HEP will allow more passenger cars added to the trains. Why add a terminal north of WAS that would require 3 train sets to run daily to that terminal?

 

[John Santos]

IMO Once Amtrak can assign more equipment to Auto Train it will add the cars to the present 2 train sets. Once the ALCs are assigned to the trains the extra HEP will allow more passenger cars added to the trains. Why add a terminal north of WAS that would require 3 train sets to run daily to that terminal?

It isn't directly for Amtrak's benefit, it would be for their customers' benefit, which would increase demand. Selling more tickets would benefit Amtrak.

The customer's benefit would be saving half a day or more driving and probably an overnight hotel bill for all customers from New Jersey and North, which I would guess would be a majority of the Auto Train customers. Amtrak would have to decide whether to move the northern terminus to a new station farther north, or to split/join the trains at Lorton or to run two trains each day, one to Lorton and one two the new terminus. Any of these options would require more of the non-existent LD equipment, which is why they desperately need to supplement or replace and expand the pool. The expansion could be either single-level or bi-level, because Superliners will fit anywhere the auto carrier cars will fit, and economies of scale may make the bi-level cars cheaper if they order more of them.

 

[disney1990]

The worms will have me eaten before I ever see a NJ terminal for the AT.

The AT experience has certainly degraded over the past few years. In 2013 we traveled in a sleeper, boarded early, had wine and cheese in dining car, and I *think* movies still playing after it got dark. Also food for coach riders. And reasonable pricing.

Pricing has risen and priced many out of the sleepers. Now it’s nearly $4000 RT if staying in a bedroom, plus car both ways. That’s of course paying full freight. Many of the rail cars are showing their age, and Amtrak has been slow to upgrade.

And Amtrak’s new fare ticketing makes it harder to make changes when fare go on sale, with the new change and cancellation fees. Travel Guide to Amtrak Train Fares

BUT, they are the only game in town when it comes to getting you, your car, and a boat load of “things” to sunny FL

Yes, even booking far in advance doesn't save like it used to. We have gone from a bedroom to a roomette to try and still be able to go.

 

[lrh442]

IMO Once Amtrak can assign more equipment to Auto Train it will add the cars to the present 2 train sets. Once the ALCs are assigned to the trains the extra HEP will allow more passenger cars added to the trains.

Even though the new ALCs can provide more HEP (head end power) than the P32s, I believe there is a limit to train length related to the amperage that the Superliner trainline cables can carry (~1,200kW for the total system). To maintain an adequate amount of power for each car this usually works out to a max of about 16 cars, or 75Kw per car.

How many Superliners are currently in a typical Auto Train consist? Of course, the auto-racks don't count in this equation since they do not draw HEP.

 

[PaTrainFan]

Even though the new ALCs can provide more HEP (head end power) than the P32s, I believe there is a limit to train length related to the amperage that the Superliner trainline cables can carry (~1,200kW for the total system). To maintain an adequate amount of power for each car this usually works out to a max of about 16 cars, or 75Kw per car.

How many Superliners are currently in a typical Auto Train consist? Of course, the auto-racks don't count in this equation since they do not draw HEP.

The few times I've actually counted, is been about 16 cars.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

The few times I've actually counted, is been about 16 cars.

You can ask at the Virtual Railfan page for Ashland. They count them every day and run a popular, pretend betting pool on it.

 

[birdie]

My brother and I have been taking the Autotrain for years. We are on the Central Jersey Shore sovwe drive to Lorton the afternoon before just to be sure we are there on time. My brother is a quadriplegic and uses a power wheelchair and drives a handicap van with a lift. I have seen some of the services and amenities go by the wayside and the fees increase but if that's what they have to do to keep that service running then I'm all for it. The men and women on those trains have been some of the nicest people i have encountered and i look forward to our trip each year. I would love to see a NJ terminal as we have about a 6 hour drive to Lorton.

 

[dlagrua]

My brother and I have been taking the Autotrain for years. We are on the Central Jersey Shore sovwe drive to Lorton the afternoon before just to be sure we are there on time. My brother is a quadriplegic and uses a power wheelchair and drives a handicap van with a lift. I have seen some of the services and amenities go by the wayside and the fees increase but if that's what they have to do to keep that service running then I'm all for it. The men and women on those trains have been some of the nicest people i have encountered and i look forward to our trip each year. I would love to see a NJ terminal as we have about a 6 hour drive to Lorton.

We would also love to see an Autotrain station here in NJ but it will probably never happen. Superliners that the A/T uses are far too high to get through the RR tunnels that go to and past Washington DC.
What I would like to see is the return of the Midwest Autotrain that departed Louisville, KY and arrived in Sanford FL.
Autotrain Lousiville KY facility

 

[lordsigma]

Even though the new ALCs can provide more HEP (head end power) than the P32s, I believe there is a limit to train length related to the amperage that the Superliner trainline cables can carry (~1,200kW for the total system). To maintain an adequate amount of power for each car this usually works out to a max of about 16 cars, or 75Kw per car.

How many Superliners are currently in a typical Auto Train consist? Of course, the auto-racks don't count in this equation since they do not draw HEP.

The Genesis units can provide 800KW of HEP. The ALCs 1000KW. If the train line capacity is 1200KW the extra capacity could potentially yield an additional car or two.

 

[west point]

The Genesis units can provide 800KW of HEP. The ALCs 1000KW. If the train line capacity is 1200KW the extra capacity could potentially yield an additional car or two.

Simple math to add to 18 passenger cars would add 4-1/2 cars or just 4 cars = 22 cars? That might mean more than 28 auto carriers so the CSX total restriction of 50 total cars may need negotiation to increase than number. That may mean another loco needed for a longer train to maintain schedule?

 

[lordsigma]

Simple math to add to 18 passenger cars would add 4-1/2 cars or just 4 cars = 22 cars? That might mean more than 28 auto carriers so the CSX total restriction of 50 total cars may need negotiation to increase than number. That may mean another loco needed for a longer train to maintain schedule?

There’s clearly other constraints Amtrak would have to resolve to actually implement it. I can’t remember precisely where but there was an Amtrak publication that touted an advantage of the ALC 42s being the higher HEP output could allow Amtrak to investigate adding additional Superliners to the Auto Train. So it’s definitely crossed their mind.

 

[jis]

Actually the real showstopper is the design limit of 1200kW of the cabling. It is not that hard to create a small subfleet of ALCs with 1200kW HEP Inverter replacing the 1000kW HEP Inverter.

 

[George Harris]

We would also love to see an Autotrain station here in NJ but it will probably never happen. Superliners that the A/T uses are far too high to get through the RR tunnels that go to and past Washington DC.
What I would like to see is the return of the Midwest Autotrain that departed Louisville, KY and arrived in Sanford FL.
Autotrain Lousiville KY facility

The alternative through DC would be to follow the freight route. That route is cleared or is in the process of being cleared for double stacks, so the superliners would be no problem.
There is nothing I can see changed that would result in a Midwest Autotrain being anything other than the financial disaster it was the first time around. Suggest we forget this one.

From jis: Actually the real showstopper is the design limit of 1200kW of the cabling. It is not that hard to create a small subfleet of ALCs with 1200kW HEP Inverter replacing the 1000kW HEP Inverter.

Answer to the trainline electrical capacity would be to put another unit separately in the train. The logical location would be between the passenger cars and the auto carriers. In fact it would seem reasonable to do so now. The kinks in using distributed power seems to have been resolved. At least for the BNSF freight trains I see coming through this area almost all have power on both ends.