Boardman: Amtrak Commits to End Food and Beverage Losses

[jis]

That is perhaps the reason that in cashless airlines cabins you always get to pay first and then partake whatever it is that you paid for. So you run up any debts only with the credit or debit card company and not with the airline - technically speaking. Then that debt gets settled in the native currency of the credit or debit card.

If Amtrak truly wants to go cashless, it could do the same. You pay in the Diner when the order is taken, before the food is delivered. Not suggesting that would be a good things. Just saying that there are ways to make it fully legal.

 

[dlagrua]

I've read suggestions here that to save money the diner car should privatize, that the help should be paid less and that somehow computerized ordering is going to solve the problem of losses.

There are undoubtedly some small things that can help cut losses in the dining car but can anyone believe that a railroad dining car can be made profitable? Private companies don't want the dining car. If help can be hired for less then will anyone work a job for a low salary that keeps them away from home a few days a week? Can computerized ordering provide more than a 10% savings? In the history of passenger rail a dining car has always lost money. Even if Amtrak sold microwave TV dinner style meals in a café car that people will bring back to their rooms or seats they would still lose money. Having meals all over the train is bound to increase cleanup and sanitation costs. Will travelers accept eating TV dinners for three days on a coast to coast trip or will they bail? I wouldn't do it.

 

[Railroad Bill]

I've read suggestions here that to save money the diner car should privatize, that the help should be paid less and that somehow computerized ordering is going to solve the problem of losses.

There are undoubtedly some small things that can help cut losses in the dining car but can anyone believe that a railroad dining car can be made profitable? Private companies don't want the dining car. If help can be hired for less then will anyone work a job for a low salary that keeps them away from home a few days a week? Can computerized ordering provide more than a 10% savings? In the history of passenger rail a dining car has always lost money. Even if Amtrak sold microwave TV dinner style meals in a café car that people will bring back to their rooms or seats they would still lose money. Having meals all over the train is bound to increase cleanup and sanitation costs. Will travelers accept eating TV dinners for three days on a coast to coast trip or will they bail? I wouldn't do it.

Me either! The dining car experience is one of the highlights of riding Amtrak and I hope they are able to continue with good meals. Perhaps a few less choices for entrees would be o.k. And it seems like 75% of the people eat Angus Burgers for lunch. And why have scrambled eggs and omelets? Not sure if any of that would save money, but would be worth looking into.

 

[Nathanael]

That is perhaps the reason that in cashless airlines cabins you always get to pay first and then partake whatever it is that you paid for. So you run up any debts only with the credit or debit card company and not with the airline - technically speaking. Then that debt gets settled in the native currency of the credit or debit card.

If Amtrak truly wants to go cashless, it could do the same. You pay in the Diner when the order is taken, before the food is delivered. Not suggesting that would be a good things. Just saying that there are ways to make it fully legal.

Yep. This is all correct according to my research.

 

[Guest]

I've read suggestions here that to save money the diner car should privatize, that the help should be paid less and that somehow computerized ordering is going to solve the problem of losses.

There are undoubtedly some small things that can help cut losses in the dining car but can anyone believe that a railroad dining car can be made profitable?

Oh, probably not. You still need diners for really long train runs, period.

Private companies don't want the dining car. If help can be hired for less then will anyone work a job for a low salary that keeps them away from home a few days a week? Can computerized ordering provide more than a 10% savings?

Well, actually, maybe it can. The dining car staff spends a truly unreasonable amount of time on paperwork (both bills and inventory), just as the conductors spent an unreasonable amount of time on paperwork prior to "e-ticketing". If those hours can be spent serving customers instead, then for the same worker pay, Amtrak could generate quite significantly more revenue. Advance ordering could make sure that people get what they want (rather than running out) and that could improve customer satisfaction and thereby improve revenue as well -- and it could also reduce spoilage and wasted inventory at the same time.
All told, I could imagine very significant improvements in the diner "bottom line" if the dining car staff spent all their time (except for their breaks) serving customers, rather than closing the dining car more than half the day in order to do paperwork and inventory. I don't know whether that would be enough to break even, but it might be enough that the cafe car profits would cancel it out.

 

[Golden grrl]

One of the problems with advance ordering is - what meals will a specific passenger eat on a multi-day long distance train that is significantly late? On my EB last week, #8(2) arrived in MSP at 11:25 am - darn close to lunch time. But it was scheduled to arrive at 7:05 am, which sounds like breakfast. So which meal would the passenger pre-order? Would the pre-ordered breakfast still be served to the passenger around noon, or would it be wasted?

 

[Larry H.]

I have scanned most of this topic. I am sad to say I see little if any thing about the reason diners are on board. Feeding people meals and making it part of a great experience amtrak seems to try to sell. Since we know from all the comments and past experience that diners even well run in the day never produced profits then the real question is why its being pushed on the traveling public in the first place. Yes I know Congress is the problem, no change there. And of course nothing will change on that end. But its pretty sad to see amtrak constantly trying to juggle unrealistic cost structures by basically downgrading the rail experience.

I do think that if Applebees can turn out a fine meal using mostly pre made meals and using somewhat inexperienced workers to accomplish it, then an operation of that quality might be able to run a dinning system better than the current one is run.. But as long as amtrak is charging thousands of dollars for sleepers I think that making the food hostage to the demands of people in politics who haven't a clue is a sad day..

Larry

 

[amamba]

All I have to add is that like Sarah, I rarely have cash. My guess is that she and I are of similar ages. We are used to being cashless and would welcome a cashless train.

I would even love something like they do on the cruises, where you get a card/account on your trip. Your gratuities get added to the account just like anything that you purchase while on board.

Today my H and I wanted to take this adorable little three car ferry across the Connecticut River. We were like ohhhhhhhh we need cash for that. Hrmm. Then we had to find an ATM, etc etc.

 

[yarrow]

I have scanned most of this topic. I am sad to say I see little if any thing about the reason diners are on board. Feeding people meals and making it part of a great experience amtrak seems to try to sell. Since we know from all the comments and past experience that diners even well run in the day never produced profits then the real question is why its being pushed on the traveling public in the first place. Yes I know Congress is the problem, no change there. And of course nothing will change on that end. But its pretty sad to see amtrak constantly trying to juggle unrealistic cost structures by basically downgrading the rail experience.

I do think that if Applebees can turn out a fine meal using mostly pre made meals and using somewhat inexperienced workers to accomplish it, then an operation of that quality might be able to run a dinning system better than the current one is run.. But as long as amtrak is charging thousands of dollars for sleepers I think that making the food hostage to the demands of people in politics who haven't a clue is a sad day..

Larry

nicely put, larry

 

[EB_OBS]

All told, I could imagine very significant improvements in the diner "bottom line" if the dining car staff spent all their time (except for their breaks) serving customers, rather than closing the dining car more than half the day in order to do paperwork and inventory. I don't know whether that would be enough to break even, but it might be enough that the cafe car profits would cancel it out.

The dining car is not closed half the day. On most LD trains the hours of service are as follows;

breakfast - 6:30am - 10:00am

lunch - 11:30am-3:00pm

dinner - 5:00pm - 9:30pm

So that's open for 11.5 hours during the day and closed for cleanup, setup and breaks only 3.5 hours.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Let us hope Amtrak does not venture down the same path the Espee and Santa Fe did with the Automatic Buffet Cars or the New York Central did with the Meal-A-Mat cars. These were cost saving attempts made in the 1960s that replaced staffed Diners with Vending Machines and many believe they actually were an attempt to drive passengers away from a particular route so the railroad could petition to close it out.

Admittedly pre cooked ready-to-reheat meals today have gotten a lot better but when I'm on the train I want the personal touch of being able to sit down at a table and be properly served. Even in the Cafe where the food is offered 7-11 style, at least the Attendant is there to give it some hands on attention.

 

[Bob Dylan]

All told, I could imagine very significant improvements in the diner "bottom line" if the dining car staff spent all their time (except for their breaks) serving customers, rather than closing the dining car more than half the day in order to do paperwork and inventory. I don't know whether that would be enough to break even, but it might be enough that the cafe car profits would cancel it out.

The dining car is not closed half the day. On most LD trains the hours of service are as follows;

breakfast - 6:30am - 10:00am

lunch - 11:30am-3:00pm

dinner - 5:00pm - 9:30pm

So that's open for 11.5 hours during the day and closed for cleanup, setup and breaks only 3.5 hours.

Ya'll are Hard Workers and Worth Every Penny! Thanks for making LD Travel a Great Way to Travel! :hi:

 

[Gratt]

Let us hope Amtrak does not venture down the same path the Espee and Santa Fe did with the Automatic Buffet Cars or the New York Central did with the Meal-A-Mat cars. These were cost saving attempts made in the 1960s that replaced staffed Diners with Vending Machines and many believe they actually were an attempt to drive passengers away from a particular route so the railroad could petition to close it out.

Admittedly pre cooked ready-to-reheat meals today have gotten a lot better but when I'm on the train I want the personal touch of being able to sit down at a table and be properly served. Even in the Cafe where the food is offered 7-11 style, at least the Attendant is there to give it some hands on attention.

I honestly do not think vending machines would be a bad idea depending on where they go. I dont think vending machines could replace diners, that would be a mistake. But, if they replaced the snack bar on the lower level of the lounge car with a set of high end vending machines I would not mind.

 

[SarahZ]

I can't remember who suggested to cease including the cost of meals in a sleeper ticket, but I, along with many others, would probably stop paying for a sleeper if meals were no longer included. Amtrak would be shooting themselves in the foot if they did this.

 

[amamba]

I can't remember who suggested to cease including the cost of meals in a sleeper ticket, but I, along with many others, would probably stop paying for a sleeper if meals were no longer included. Amtrak would be shooting themselves in the foot if they did this.

I would probably continue to pay for the sleeper, but I would take more advantage of getting food from the cafe and bringing my own snacks.

And if the dining cars were no longer getting the revenue from the sleeper pax, that is a hit for the diner.

 

[Bob Dylan]

As a Veteran of the SP "Automat" Trains I'm Not in Favor of Vending machines, you would still have to have an Attendant (they expected Tips for making Change in the Old Days, sort of like Tip Jars @ the Register in Self Serve Joints!! :angry: )Even during the "Golden Days" of Rail Travel when Everyone Paid for their Food and Drink in the Diners and Cafe/Lounges, the RRS Lost Money on Food and Drink Service!

If the Right Catering Company could be Found to run the Cafe/Lounges on Amtrak Trains, I could see that that might Improve what was served as Well as Save Money for Amtrak!!! (I'm not saying the LSA should Lose their Jobs, they could Move to the Diners or Sleeping Cars but the Inventory/Commissary Hassle wouldn't be on Amtrak Anymore!)

 

[Ispolkom]

That is perhaps the reason that in cashless airlines cabins you always get to pay first and then partake whatever it is that you paid for. So you run up any debts only with the credit or debit card company and not with the airline - technically speaking. Then that debt gets settled in the native currency of the credit or debit card.

If Amtrak truly wants to go cashless, it could do the same. You pay in the Diner when the order is taken, before the food is delivered. Not suggesting that would be a good things. Just saying that there are ways to make it fully- legal.

I know that I don't fly anywhere near as often as you do, but in my experience with cashless flights (American and Southwest, mostly) I rarely pay the flight attendant before I get my drink. Occasionally I don't end up paying at all, which is why I notice this. Mileage may vary, of course. I remember with fondness a United trip from Minneapolis to Halifax. The flight from Minneapolis to Chicago was cashless, while the flight from Chicago to Halifax was cash only (though they accepted either currency).

I like the dining car, but I agree with Amamba. I'd take a sleeper even if meals weren't included, since for me the key aspect of sleeper travel is privacy. My most common route (St. Paul - Minot) includes only breakfast, and back when the train was less crowded and I traveled in coach I'd often just pack a couple of granola bars and buy coffee in the Sightseer Lounge rather than pay for breakfast. Longer trips would take a trifle more ingenuity, but I've traveled for two nights in a sleeper without a dining car (Moscow-Brussels).

I'm curious, what could you buy from the Espee Automats? Was it just potato chips, candy bars and those horrible cheese crackers with peanut butter? Or were the more choices?: Nasty dried-out sandwiches?

 

[SarahZ]

I suppose, for me, it would depend on the cost of the sleeper. Our main reasons are privacy/quiet and a real bed, but we like that the meals cushion the blow of paying for one. When they're low-bucket, it's not so bad, but the higher the bucket goes, the more I'd have to weigh privacy against our budget (especially since we'd have to tack on the cost of food from the cafe/groceries in addition to the room).

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Here is a sample Southern Pacific Automatic Buffet Car Menu currently up on eBay. The offerings borderline on being nasty, especially if this was the only option on a long haul:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/railroad-menu-Southern-Pacific-1970-Automatic-Buffet-Cart-Whiskeys-1-00-/370911615904?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item565c0e1ba0

 

[Bob Dylan]

Here is a sample Southern Pacific Automatic Buffet Car Menu currently up on eBay. The offerings borderline on being nasty, especially if this was the only option on a long haul:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/railroad-menu-Southern-Pacific-1970-Automatic-Buffet-Cart-Whiskeys-1-00-/370911615904?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item565c0e1ba0

Thanks for Posting, I was looking for something like this! The Prices might Seem Low Compared to Today but I Assure You This Was Pricey in 1960s Dollars and it Tasted Bad and was of Very Poor Quality compared to what used to be Available in the Diner and the Lounge/Cafeteria Cars! Even in the old Candy Butcher Days they Better stuff than this Swill!!

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

And after seeing Prunes in Syrup I think I'll take the bus

 

[SarahZ]

Here is a sample Southern Pacific Automatic Buffet Car Menu currently up on eBay. The offerings borderline on being nasty, especially if this was the only option on a long haul:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/railroad-menu-Southern-Pacific-1970-Automatic-Buffet-Cart-Whiskeys-1-00-/370911615904?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item565c0e1ba0

Sanka! I haven't seen that in ages. My grandmother used to drink Sanka in the morning and tea in the evening.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

All told, I could imagine very significant improvements in the diner "bottom line" if the dining car staff spent all their time (except for their breaks) serving customers, rather than closing the dining car more than half the day in order to do paperwork and inventory. I don't know whether that would be enough to break even, but it might be enough that the cafe car profits would cancel it out.

The dining car is not closed half the day. On most LD trains the hours of service are as follows;

breakfast - 6:30am - 10:00am

lunch - 11:30am-3:00pm

dinner - 5:00pm - 9:30pm

So that's open for 11.5 hours during the day and closed for cleanup, setup and breaks only 3.5 hours.

Ya'll are Hard Workers and Worth Every Penny! Thanks for making LD Travel a Great Way to Travel! :hi:

I second this! I look forward to the whole 'dining car experience' before every LD trip I take- THANKS to y'all! :hi:

 

[jphjaxfl]

Here is a sample Southern Pacific Automatic Buffet Car Menu currently up on eBay. The offerings borderline on being nasty, especially if this was the only option on a long haul:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/railroad-menu-Southern-Pacific-1970-Automatic-Buffet-Cart-Whiskeys-1-00-/370911615904?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item565c0e1ba0

I remember the Espee Automatic Buffet Car on the Coast Daylight. The train had a beautiful tear drop Parlor Car where I had seat in the tear drop end, a beautiful Dome Lounge car where you could get beverages and snacks, but for food the only option was the Automat. Many negative comments in the Parlor Car. A year later, Amtrak had restored full dining service on the route on the Coast Starlite. No Parlor car, but at least you could get a decent meal to accompany the beautiful scenery.

 

[Jason McHuff]

Regarding cashless diners, it shouldn't be that hard to either do pre-payment in the cafe, or offer gift cards where the balance can be refunded from a ticket agent after the trip.

Also, if it wouldn't cost that much to stock different meals in the commissaries, offering a greater variety of selections for those willing to pre-order would be an interesting idea.

In addition, if trains could ever be guarenteed to be roughly on-time, would it be cheaper to eliminate dorm space for the crew by having them detrain at the end of the day (or sfift) for land-based lodging, then work the other direction?