FYI: Only two major airlines, America West and US Airways, were granted loan guarantees. Those two major carrier loans, plus a couple of small loans to regional carriers, totaled about $1.6 billion (of the $10 billion available). The other $8.4 billion in guarantees were never granted. United's application for a loan guarantee was rejected three times and is now dead. No other major carriers have applied for loans.haolerider said:I haven't had the time to read the entire article, but the portion reagarding airlines is almost laughable. The author cites the changes they have made to adapt to the changing times since 9/11, however he doesn't discuss the huge Federal grants/loan guarantees and outright gifts they were given by the government. Just check Delta's latest financial report and you can see how much they have lost and will continue to lose...........same thing with United, who is looking for loan guarantees.
Well he doesn't mention it, because it's not true. When I last researched this, I think it was the 2003 budget, the Feds only gave the industry a little over 1 Billion dollars. That number includes the FRA, FAA, airport improvement projects, ATC, and so on.whc6 said:What Dr. Utt also fails to mention is the billions and billions of tax dollars (federal, state, and local) which maintain the airline infrastructure - airports, navigation aids, air traffic controllers, and so on. When you start adding up all the government money that supports aviation, I am quite certain that the cost per passanger is quite high.
A total of just under $1.56 billion in loan guarantees have been issued by the Air Transportation Stabilization Board. Two majors, US Airways and America West, received loan guarantees. These two guarantees totaled $1.28 billion. The US Airways loan was restructured in March and $250 million was repaid.whc6 said:FYI - Other airlines with loan guarantees are American Trans Air, Aloha, Frontier, and World. Evergreen International has been conditionally approved. Only Frontier has paid back the entire loan.
FYI: Larry's Flying Service received a Stabilization Grant of $109,478.70. Grand Canyon Helicopters received $453,588.90. The info in that article is old, old, old.AmtrakWPK said:I did a little research - here's one of the articles:==================
Vol. VII No. 23 June 7, 2002
BIG AIRLINES BENEFIT FROM BAILOUT BILL
In comparison, one small carrier, Larry's Flying Service received $6,000 from the government despite the fact that the company estimated that they lost nearly $14,000 just from the two days when there were no flights. Papillon Grand Canyon Helicopters received the least amount of money in the first round of handouts - $340.
Sorry, but no I'm not off on this one. I did the research about 6 to 9 months ago when challenged by another member of this forum for saying something very similar to what you said today.whc6 said:Alan, you are a bit off on this one. Billions and billions are pumped by our government into aviation each year. Much of it is well spent. People need to realize that we spend exponentially more on aviation than rail. Both lose money. Both will continue to lose money. However, it is important for the nation that we have a viable aviation and rail system. Amtrak deserves the 1.8 billion and then some.
While it's late here on the east coast, I'll say two quick things for now.AmtrakWPK said:The cost of the EAS program has grown dramatically over the past few years, from $30 million to $115 million in FY2002. $50 million of this subsidy is guaranteed. It is derived from overflight fees or FAA’s budget.
Simple answer: they would be doing no worse providing their own infrastructure because, in every practical sense, they and their customers already do pay for the airports and infrastructure used by the airlines. Of course, many airlines are not doing OK right now but that has nothing to do with airport grants, ATC grants, capital or infrastructure and has everything to do with the industry cost structure and some nasty low cost carriers that are shaking things up big time.National Limited said:... Knowing there will be a flury of "we already answered that" jestures in the air at reading this, and running the risk of soiling the name of the great train "The National Limited," let me ask for a simple answer to a simple (yes, I know it isn't simple) question: If the airlines had to pay for the same type of things (terminals, capital, infrustructure) that Amtrak has to pay for how would they be doing financially? Can someone just say "they would be coing ok" or "they would not be doing ok" to that question?
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