Cardinal Business Class seating question

[user 6862]

We're looking for advice from people who travel on the Cardinal in Business Class re seating possibilities.

We're about to book a return train from the south, the Texas Eagle through to Washington, DC. There are two options for us connecting to the Cardinal. One into Chicago and transfer to the Cardinal there, the other to transfer to a Thruway bus at Bloomington Normal. This will take us across to Indianapolis where we'll board the Cardinal.

The price difference is minimal, so it's down to choice. We do like to see as much of the US as we can on our travels, so taking a look at Normal and then a bus across to IND appeals to us. Also see that the Station at Indianapolis looks interesting, we get to see another part of the Amtrak system.

Whether we travel from CHI or IND to Washington we would travel Business Class, not tried it so far so again interesting.

Here's the question. The Cardinal in January westbound... is business usually full, empty, or half empty? When travelling we sit together of course, but Rosie sometimes has trouble with her legs when sleeping and sometimes needs to use a bit of my space too. If we get on in IND and there are only 2 seats left, the ones we have booked, but they are each next to a stranger then it could be difficult.

How busy is usual for the Cardinal business class please?

 

[Maglev]

The seats in Business Class on the Cardinal are two on one side of the aisle and one on the other side. The pairs of seats have a rather wide, fixed armrest between the seats, so it is not possible to use any space of the seat next to you. The seats in Coach have no center armrests.

You never know when a special event or group will fill up a train like the Cardinal.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Remember, the Cardinal uses a split club for business class. It only has 18 seats, in the 2x1 configuration. The car is typically busiest between NYP-CVS and CHI-IND.

 

[user 6862]

Thanks to you both, hadn't expected a fixed arm rest. Good point about coach with no arm rests, had forgotten about that. But it would be a pity as we did want to try business as hadn't used them so far, but it's not critical. Would it be correct that the BC seats are wider than coach ones?

When boarding starts in CHI is it first come first serve like coach, or are the seats numbered and allocated on purchase of a ticket like a sleeper?

With so few seats in the car (6 Rows?) it would be easy to come unstuck not getting 2 seats side by side. It's starting to point to a transfer at CHI, shame.

 

[bratkinson]

If I were making that trip, and I have several times, I'd make the connection in Chicago. This would be especially true in the winter, as one never knows what the highways will be like in advance. Having driven thousands of miles on snowy roads (I used to be a snowmobiler driving to northern Wisconsin many times in the winter to go snowmobiling with friends), you never know what lays ahead...even closed roads due to blizzard conditions, etc. Additionally, several years ago, when connecting from the California Zephyr to the Cardinal, we were 5-6 hours late, so they bused us from Galesburg to Indianapolis with a stop at an exit with several fast-food choices. We arrived at Indianpolis about 11PM so we waited in a rather depressing 'station' area below the tracks (they're overhead at Indianapolis) until the train arrived and we could board. Another reason for boarding in Chicago is to get a choice of seats, rather than ending up in the least desirable seats. In fact, I'd suggest using a red cap who will take your luggage and put it on board for you. That way, you'll board ahead of all other passengers and not have to deal with the crowd trying to get preferred seats. I generally give the red cap $5.00. It's well worth it, in my opinion.

As indicated above, business class seating is the 2&1 arrangement, 6 rows of seats in the rear portion of an otherwise unused lounge car with an empty service area in the middle and empty booths for use by business class and sleeper passengers only...and perhaps the conductor, too. It should be noted that the 'front' seats in business class do not have a fold-down table on the seatback in front of them, but you definitely get more legroom, but no footrest, either.

As with all long distance coaches, there's a leg rest that comes out from under your seat as well as a foot rest on the back of the seat in front of you. But interestingly, there's actually LESS legroom in business class than Amfleet II long distance coach! About a year ago, I started taking measurements of various seating arrangements, and discovered that the 2&1 business class seating has 18" from the front of your seat cushion to the back of the fully upright seat ahead. Amfleet II LD cars have 22" of legroom. I also think the coach seats recline further than the business class seats, as well. Foolishly, I've never measured the seat widths of various car types, but I did for the 2&1 business class seats. On the '2' side, they are 19" between armrests (the center armrest is wide enough to have 2 drink holder depressions side by side...5" or so total width). On the '1' side, the seats are only 18" wide. Go figure. Additionally, for sleeping purposes, the 'gap' between the sidewall of the car and the seat is about 3" on the '2' side, and 5" on the '1' side, which necessitates more 'stuffing' to prevent your pillow from sliding down when leaning against the window. I don't have the number for LD coach to sidewall, but I think it's less than 3" as I recall.

I've ridden in 2&1 business class seating 3-5 times per year on NEC and Empire State trains. Those were all daylight runs and I prefer the single seating. The 1/2 cafe/business class cars have been on the overnight trains #67 & 67 and I've ridden them, too. As long as there's nobody alongside me, I sleep better on the '2' side leaning against the wall. That way, I can stretch my feet into the other seat area, whereas doing so on the '1' side, they're in the aisle. About a year ago, I was on #66 WAS->BOS (connecting from the Cardinal at WAS) and discovered every seat was filled by Baltimore! Good thing I chose the '1' side that night!

In the past 10 years or so, I've only taken the Cardinal in warmer weather, never winter. So I don't know how full or empty it might be. As most LD trains lose a coach or two after the holiday season, I'd expect coach seating to be perhaps 65%-75% full on the more heavily traveled portions of the route. On the other hand, I would expect business class to be not more than 50% full due to the drop off in passenger counts during the winter.

If I were to ride coach or B/C in the winter on the Cardinal, I think I'd choose coach seating over business class. More room, all the way around. I travel alone. But with a wife, children, or friends, if the train isn't too full, it's quite possible everyone gets a full coach seat to themselves, making it much easier to sleep.

Enjoy your trip!

 

[jebr]

I'll dissent a bit and suggest doing the bus connection if you've done the Texas Eagle segment from Bloomington/Normal to Chicago and the Cardinal from Indianapolis to Chicago on other trips. It probably won't be terribly interesting scenery, but I don't think the train would offer any particularly exciting scenery either along those segments. The connection times seem decent enough, and I wouldn't worry too much about the weather (it's all interstate driving from the looks of it, and it'd be rare for the interstate to shut down completely.) It's also a standard Burlington Trailways route that simply picks up Amtrak passengers as it comes through, so there'd be a different cross-section of society on there than on the typical train or dedicated Amtrak Thruway route (much like Greyhound.)

The layovers are a bit longer, but that could give some time to explore the surrounding areas. I'm not sure how safe or unsafe particular areas are; I'll leave that up to others to advise. However, I'd be tempted to do it myself just to say that I'd done it, and to give myself the opportunity to explore a couple of downtown areas that I otherwise wouldn't.

Seat turnover should be high enough in Indianapolis that, at least in coach, two seats together should be doable. I've never taken business class on this train, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't some turnover in Indianapolis for business class as well (given that Indianapolis is the end of the daily corridor between the Hoosier State and the Cardinal.)

 

[IndyLions]

Indianapolis is a wonderful city (I live there), but our combined train/bus waiting area is something I avoid like the plague. It’s always depressing, sometimes dirty, sometimes smelly. (I always board in Crawfordsville an hour to the west).

It’s nothing to see for sure - and at 11pm there’s not much opportunity to explore other worthy downtown locations.

Just one factor to consider.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Good advice from all Jamie,based on personal expierence I second what IndyLions says.( keeping in mind I dont care for Long Distance Bus travel)

Remember the Cardinal is a 3 Day a week Train and the Eagle has been known to miss the connection in Chicago.

All things considered, if y'all want to see the New River Gorge in Daylight I say ride the Cardinal Eastbound in the Summer instead of this Winter! I'd take the Cap Ltd from Chicago to Pittsburgh ( Superliner equipped), then transfer to the Pennsylvanian( the dungeon station there is bad as Indy but the layover isnt as long) to New York in Coach,( Biz Class not worth it on this route)

You'll get to see the famous Horseshoe Curve, Harrisburg,Amish Country, Philadelphia and the NEC in daylight.

 

[user 6862]

Sorry to repeat the question. Is Business Class seating numbered and allocated, or on first come first served basis as per Coach?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Sorry to repeat the question. Is Business Class seating numbered and allocated, or on first come first served basis as per Coach?

First come first served Jamie. If you do ride it, catch it in Chicago and use,a Red Cap to board and beat the herd to the Train to get a choice seat!

 

[tonijustine]

I hate the Indy station. There is nothing remotely impressive about it. Not seeing the station is a benefit, not a detriment, of getting the connection in Chicago.

I am equidistance between Crawfordsville and Indy and the only reason I use Indy as a station is if I need checked luggage.

 

[user 6862]

So much good information here we have discussed the options for hours, never spent this amount of time discussing any train journey before. Finally tossed a coin as we couldn't chose between the two options, card ready, click buy and have to refresh, price increased during our discussions by $190, we're gutted!

Going to sit and wait, could always fly back from LA... NOT.

 

[user 6862]

Un-gutted.

Just closed all Amtrak pages and started again, didn't even give our chosen route a look. Found another (3rd) choice for a similar price, but using the same TE train and Roomette. The price of the roomette was the same as our original first choice, what's going on.

Scroll through to the last TE option and there is our first option at the original price posting the same 1 room only!. We were both looking at the screen earlier and just confirmed with each other we weren't going mad. No, we both saw the $190 increase and 3 rooms available at the increased price, is this common to up and then down in under 5 minutes?

No more discussions, booked the journey at lightening speed, as Mr T would say "it was the fastest booking in history"

We are happy but exhausted (reached 40° C / 104° F today), time for a glass of French red wine!

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

My head is spinning

. What did you end up booking?

104 degrees? I was thinking of places to go next summer to beat the heat, but I guess Europe is off the list.

And of course you and Rosie discussed the options for hours--after you hang around on AU long enough, it gets to be a habit to discuss everything for ages!

 

[bratkinson]

Un-gutted.

Just closed all Amtrak pages and started again, didn't even give our chosen route a look. Found another (3rd) choice for a similar price, but using the same TE train and Roomette. The price of the roomette was the same as our original first choice, what's going on.

Scroll through to the last TE option and there is our first option at the original price posting the same 1 room only!. We were both looking at the screen earlier and just confirmed with each other we weren't going mad. No, we both saw the $190 increase and 3 rooms available at the increased price, is this common to up and then down in under 5 minutes?

And here I thought it was my using Firefox that caused price shifts on Amtrak booking screens!

Even though I use Amsnag extensively, I will sometimes 'play around' with various dates and/or trains on the booking screen before finally settling in to book my trip. I suspect that Amtrak site doesn't clear the users' work areas (internal queues of info such as train, prices, etc) and when 'playing' with variations, it really gets 'lost' and pulls prices out of thin air, if you ask me.

Earlier today, I went to book an all NEC, disconnected two-segment multi-city trip for 8/7 and it came up with some kind of 'we are sorry' message. I had been looking at each segment separately to determine which has the best pricing and schedule and when I finally went to book it, 'multi-city' got screwed up. So, like you, I closed all open sessions and started a 'fresh' copy of Firefox. I also decided to book each segment individually. I don't know if the Amtrak computer had a hiccup when I first tried to book and it was fixed 3-5 minutes later, but I got my tickets.

As for roomette prices on the Texas Eagle, it pays to check out both 'trains' offerings. I've seen more than $100 difference between a roomette on #21 vs #421 on the same train! Although I usually take #421 CHI-LAX, I've considered saving some $ by booking CHI-SAS and SAS-LAX separately as train #1 roomettes SAS-LAX might be less costly than on #421.

In short, it pays to know what prices are being 'offered' and choose wisely.

 

[user 6862]

If I were making that trip, and I have several times, I'd make the connection in Chicago. This would be especially true in the winter, as one never knows what the highways will be like in advance. Having driven thousands of miles on snowy roads (I used to be a snowmobiler driving to northern Wisconsin many times in the winter to go snowmobiling with friends), you never know what lays ahead...even closed roads due to blizzard conditions, etc. Additionally, several years ago, when connecting from the California Zephyr to the Cardinal, we were 5-6 hours late, so they bused us from Galesburg to Indianapolis with a stop at an exit with several fast-food choices. We arrived at Indianpolis about 11PM so we waited in a rather depressing 'station' area below the tracks (they're overhead at Indianapolis) until the train arrived and we could board. Another reason for boarding in Chicago is to get a choice of seats, rather than ending up in the least desirable seats. In fact, I'd suggest using a red cap who will take your luggage and put it on board for you. That way, you'll board ahead of all other passengers and not have to deal with the crowd trying to get preferred seats. I generally give the red cap $5.00. It's well worth it, in my opinion.

As indicated above, business class seating is the 2&1 arrangement, 6 rows of seats in the rear portion of an otherwise unused lounge car with an empty service area in the middle and empty booths for use by business class and sleeper passengers only...and perhaps the conductor, too. It should be noted that the 'front' seats in business class do not have a fold-down table on the seatback in front of them, but you definitely get more legroom, but no footrest, either.

As with all long distance coaches, there's a leg rest that comes out from under your seat as well as a foot rest on the back of the seat in front of you. But interestingly, there's actually LESS legroom in business class than Amfleet II long distance coach! About a year ago, I started taking measurements of various seating arrangements, and discovered that the 2&1 business class seating has 18" from the front of your seat cushion to the back of the fully upright seat ahead. Amfleet II LD cars have 22" of legroom. I also think the coach seats recline further than the business class seats, as well. Foolishly, I've never measured the seat widths of various car types, but I did for the 2&1 business class seats. On the '2' side, they are 19" between armrests (the center armrest is wide enough to have 2 drink holder depressions side by side...5" or so total width). On the '1' side, the seats are only 18" wide. Go figure. Additionally, for sleeping purposes, the 'gap' between the sidewall of the car and the seat is about 3" on the '2' side, and 5" on the '1' side, which necessitates more 'stuffing' to prevent your pillow from sliding down when leaning against the window. I don't have the number for LD coach to sidewall, but I think it's less than 3" as I recall.

I've ridden in 2&1 business class seating 3-5 times per year on NEC and Empire State trains. Those were all daylight runs and I prefer the single seating. The 1/2 cafe/business class cars have been on the overnight trains #67 & 67 and I've ridden them, too. As long as there's nobody alongside me, I sleep better on the '2' side leaning against the wall. That way, I can stretch my feet into the other seat area, whereas doing so on the '1' side, they're in the aisle. About a year ago, I was on #66 WAS->BOS (connecting from the Cardinal at WAS) and discovered every seat was filled by Baltimore! Good thing I chose the '1' side that night!

In the past 10 years or so, I've only taken the Cardinal in warmer weather, never winter. So I don't know how full or empty it might be. As most LD trains lose a coach or two after the holiday season, I'd expect coach seating to be perhaps 65%-75% full on the more heavily traveled portions of the route. On the other hand, I would expect business class to be not more than 50% full due to the drop off in passenger counts during the winter.

If I were to ride coach or B/C in the winter on the Cardinal, I think I'd choose coach seating over business class. More room, all the way around. I travel alone. But with a wife, children, or friends, if the train isn't too full, it's quite possible everyone gets a full coach seat to themselves, making it much easier to sleep.

Enjoy your trip!

Exactly what we have done primarily for the extra space and having a better chance of sitting together. As we're joining the Cardinal in Indianapolis as heavily recommended above, not once but twice, ha ha, thought there would be a good chance that Business Class could be difficult.

Thanks for that amazingly detailed advice, want to become our travel agent!

I'll dissent a bit and suggest doing the bus connection if you've done the Texas Eagle segment from Bloomington/Normal to Chicago and the Cardinal from Indianapolis to Chicago on other trips. It probably won't be terribly interesting scenery, but I don't think the train would offer any particularly exciting scenery either along those segments. The connection times seem decent enough, and I wouldn't worry too much about the weather (it's all interstate driving from the looks of it, and it'd be rare for the interstate to shut down completely.) It's also a standard Burlington Trailways route that simply picks up Amtrak passengers as it comes through, so there'd be a different cross-section of society on there than on the typical train or dedicated Amtrak Thruway route (much like Greyhound.)

The layovers are a bit longer, but that could give some time to explore the surrounding areas. I'm not sure how safe or unsafe particular areas are; I'll leave that up to others to advise. However, I'd be tempted to do it myself just to say that I'd done it, and to give myself the opportunity to explore a couple of downtown areas that I otherwise wouldn't.

Seat turnover should be high enough in Indianapolis that, at least in coach, two seats together should be doable. I've never taken business class on this train, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't some turnover in Indianapolis for business class as well (given that Indianapolis is the end of the daily corridor between the Hoosier State and the Cardinal.)

We're with you Jeb, kindred spirits. If there are weather problems it will add to the adventure, and as you write buses never fail to be interesting,

Indianapolis is a wonderful city (I live there), but our combined train/bus waiting area is something I avoid like the plague. It’s always depressing, sometimes dirty, sometimes smelly. (I always board in Crawfordsville an hour to the west).

It’s nothing to see for sure - and at 11pm there’s not much opportunity to explore other worthy downtown locations.

Just one factor to consider.

IndyLions I really appreciate your opinion and don't question it all, but sometimes if somewhere is described as so bad we have to see for ourselves, our foolish curiosity.

Good advice from all Jamie,based on personal expierence I second what IndyLions says.( keeping in mind I dont care for Long Distance Bus travel)

Remember the Cardinal is a 3 Day a week Train and the Eagle has been known to miss the connection in Chicago.

All things considered, if y'all want to see the New River Gorge in Daylight I say ride the Cardinal Eastbound in the Summer instead of this Winter! I'd take the Cap Ltd from Chicago to Pittsburgh ( Superliner equipped), then transfer to the Pennsylvanian( the dungeon station there is bad as Indy but the layover isnt as long) to New York in Coach,( Biz Class not worth it on this route)

You'll get to see the famous Horseshoe Curve, Harrisburg,Amish Country, Philadelphia and the NEC in daylight.

That figured high in our decision Bob, thanks, the bus trip has around 7 hours of packing in it so easier to catch up.

I hate the Indy station. There is nothing remotely impressive about it. Not seeing the station is a benefit, not a detriment, of getting the connection in Chicago.

I am equidistance between Crawfordsville and Indy and the only reason I use Indy as a station is if I need checked luggage.

There's obviously something seriously bad about this station we just have to go now. Our original reason that it looks on google images like many of British Victorian rail stations of our childhoods which are all gone now, so it was to see as an adult what they looked and feel like. The trains running overhead was one of the features I remember most, the buildings and floors vibrating while this deep rumbling was coming from above.

Do appreciate you advice though, just happen to have been one of those children that when an adult said don't! I did.

My head is spinning

. What did you end up booking?

104 degrees? I was thinking of places to go next summer to beat the heat, but I guess Europe is off the list.

And of course you and Rosie discussed the options for hours--after you hang around on AU long enough, it gets to be a habit to discuss everything for ages!

Yes ma'am, supposed to be hotter at the end of next week, still, up until this year it was not normal at all. But if this is now the norm have you tried visiting Ireland, it's a magical place with even better people. Cities such as Dublin, Cork and even Belfast are quite unique, the people are wonderful.

So the decision was leave the TE at Normal, bus across to Indianapolis, join the Cardinal there in coach as recommended to Washington. As this journey should be more relaxed and less strenuous than those previously we thought we needed something to bring us back to reality so decided on the bus connection.

If we can give you any advice or help with ideas of travelling Europe, just ask it's no problem.

I've started a sort of pre travelogue http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/73372-london-to-baja-california-across-america/

The idea is to make occasional entries as plans and itineraries evolve and stuff is booked, which continues with the journey itself. Not sure it will work but to us from the moment we decide to make a journey and start planning that is inseparable from the journey itself.

Un-gutted.

Just closed all Amtrak pages and started again, didn't even give our chosen route a look. Found another (3rd) choice for a similar price, but using the same TE train and Roomette. The price of the roomette was the same as our original first choice, what's going on.

Scroll through to the last TE option and there is our first option at the original price posting the same 1 room only!. We were both looking at the screen earlier and just confirmed with each other we weren't going mad. No, we both saw the $190 increase and 3 rooms available at the increased price, is this common to up and then down in under 5 minutes?

And here I thought it was my using Firefox that caused price shifts on Amtrak booking screens!

Even though I use Amsnag extensively, I will sometimes 'play around' with various dates and/or trains on the booking screen before finally settling in to book my trip. I suspect that Amtrak site doesn't clear the users' work areas (internal queues of info such as train, prices, etc) and when 'playing' with variations, it really gets 'lost' and pulls prices out of thin air, if you ask me.

Earlier today, I went to book an all NEC, disconnected two-segment multi-city trip for 8/7 and it came up with some kind of 'we are sorry' message. I had been looking at each segment separately to determine which has the best pricing and schedule and when I finally went to book it, 'multi-city' got screwed up. So, like you, I closed all open sessions and started a 'fresh' copy of Firefox. I also decided to book each segment individually. I don't know if the Amtrak computer had a hiccup when I first tried to book and it was fixed 3-5 minutes later, but I got my tickets.

As for roomette prices on the Texas Eagle, it pays to check out both 'trains' offerings. I've seen more than $100 difference between a roomette on #21 vs #421 on the same train! Although I usually take #421 CHI-LAX, I've considered saving some $ by booking CHI-SAS and SAS-LAX separately as train #1 roomettes SAS-LAX might be less costly than on #421.

In short, it pays to know what prices are being 'offered' and choose wisely.

The higher price had never appeared before that refresh, that's in over 2 weeks of looking. Maybe a roomette had just been booked and one cancelled at the same moment? I suppose when any transport is full they have to have the next option available, in truth don't really have a clue.

 

[IndyLions]

Not sure how much connection time you will have in Indy - but if you are going to endure the hell that is our waiting area - take the easy walk to the Slippery Noodle. I believe it’s the longest continuously operating bar in Indiana. It’s a Blues Bar and a legitimate local landmark.

 

[user 6862]

Thanks. There's supposed to be 4 hours layover and were going to try to find somewhere to eat, but will have 3 smaller bags with us so may be restricted. If we can store the bags the Slippery Noodle could be it.

 

[IndyLions]

Four hours is another story. You could have an enjoyable dinner at a number of easily walkable locations (if you can store your bags) and THEN have an after dinner nightcap at the Noodle. If you have a budget and/or cuisine in mind I’d be happy to make recommendations. Like a lot of US cities, Indy has had a food renaissance over the past 5 years - you should take advantage as your budget allows.

 

[NorthShore]

I hate the Indy station. There is nothing remotely impressive about it. Not seeing the station is a benefit, not a detriment, of getting the connection in Chicago.

But....if you can get into the hotel/convention center/whatever it is now and see the original station waiting room, it's well worthwhile.

https://www.indianapolismonthly.com/city-buzz/who-killed-union-station/

 

[user 6862]

NorthShore, we'll do our best to blag our way in, thanks for the info.

That's kind of you IndyLions, we'd appreciate any recommendations. We're in France a lot but rarely eat haut cuisine, we just enjoy plain food cooked well. We enjoy Italian, Thai and Vietnamese (if you are ever in Austin Bob Dylan knows a great Vietnamese restaurant that doesn't realise how good it is).

We're not massive meat eaters but enjoy ribs and some burgers (again great Juicy Lucy in St Paul with Jeb and Chelsea). We've also started to enjoy more vegetarian food too. Almost left out Cajun and Creole food, that's our new love in eating. Our budget is the least we can get away with and eat good food.

If something comes to mind from the list above then we'll certainly do our best to get our bags stored and try it out, we think you can't beat insider information.

Thank you

 

[cpotisch]

I would take the train to Chicago and catch the Cardinal there. I'd just take a train over a bus any day. Plus it's one fewer transfer.

 

[user 6862]

cpotisch, understand that often the most convenient is a big help, we probably apply that to our day to day lives a lot. But, when travelling we sometimes like the harder or more difficult, just because we can.

Thanks for the input