CBS News Acela story

[rile42]

I hope I'm not the only one that takes some umbrage with the reporting about the problems with the brakes. First, Bob Schieffer starts the story saying that the Acelas have brakes "that don't work". I may be wrong but they did work. Weren't there cracks found on the rotors and then it was decided, for safety sake, to pull the consists out and fix the rotors. I can't recall any brake failures.

Then, somebody that "used" to be an Amtrak supporter but wrote a book was shown touting the administrations line about it being cheaper to "buy every Amtrak passenger an airlines ticket". I'm surprised that argument is still being used and accepted.

Finally, one old lady was "interviewed". There was no showing of what she was asked but the only thing that was shown was her saying "toilet paper".

What a crock of horse dung.

 

[rile42]

I forgot another part of the story. The Acela was compared to the successful high speed trains in Europe and Japan in a way that suggested the inferiority of the Acela version of high speed travel. What was not mentioned was how much the foreign governments contributed to train travel in those areas compared to what is contributed to Amtrak.

 

[AlanB]

First, Bob Schieffer starts the story saying that the Acelas have brakes "that don't work".  I may be wrong but they did work.  Weren't there cracks found on the rotors and then it was decided, for safety sake, to pull the consists out and fix the rotors.  I can't recall any brake failures.

Correct, the brakes still worked and no train was ever in danger of not stopping. The concern is that if the cracks widened and broke, that parts could fall off of the train. Those pieces would then create a danger to a following train.

Then, somebody that "used" to be an Amtrak supporter but wrote a book was shown touting the administrations line about it being cheaper to "buy every Amtrak passenger an airlines ticket".  I'm surprised that argument is still being used and accepted.

That most likely is Joseph Vranich, a former Amtrak employee who has had a grudge ever since he left Amtrak.

 

[IGoDwnTwn]

Greetings

The one big diference that strikes me between ACela and European "fast trains" is that Acela is concentrated in a densedly populated area of the US. Most "fast trains" in Europe travel almost 400 miles between cities. The areas that they go through are mostly farmland or sparcely popluated areas between these major cities. They also capture 80% of the market that travel 350 miles or less.

IGO

 

[AlanB]

The one big diference that strikes me between ACela and European "fast trains" is that Acela is concentrated in a densedly populated area of the US. Most "fast trains" in Europe travel almost 400 miles between cities. The areas that they go through are mostly farmland or sparcely popluated areas between these major cities. They also capture 80% of the market that travel 350 miles or less.

The Acela's also had to meet some very strict FRA requirements. Requirements that are much tougher than the European trains need to meet. That resulted in a much heavier train that used in Europe.

Even if we had borrowed a European design and just beefed it up to meet FRA regs, the two major failures on Acela the current brake issue and the lateral stabilizer issue 2 years ago, might still have occurred. No one had any practical knowledge of what carrying all that extra weight might do to normal conventional equipment.

Using existing designs would have eliminated many of the other Acela problems and probably would have saved on design costs, but again the two biggest Acela failures might have still occurred regardless.

 

[Ray L. Nutz]

The heavier train is not much of issue Alan, the track maintenace in USA is just plain sloppy compared to Europe.

When Amtrak borrowed X996 the French CC locomotive the trucks were shot within two weeks.

Trains on NEC do not run smooth and hunt and sway on track that should be straight without bumps.

 

[AlanB]

The heavier train is not much of issue Alan, the track maintenace in USA is just plain sloppy compared to Europe.When Amtrak borrowed X996 the French CC locomotive the trucks were shot within two weeks.

Trains on NEC do not run smooth and hunt and sway on track that should be straight without bumps.

Sorry Ray, but I have to disagree. Yes perhaps the poor track may have been a larger factor in the lateral stabilizer failure. But poor track would have far less to do with the brakes.

One puts a lot more force on the brakes and their supports if one tries to stop a car weighing 120,000 lbs vs 100,000 lbs. I'm not real sure just what an Acela car weighs vs. an Amfleet or even a European high-speed train car, but I do know that the Acela cars weigh significantly more.

Even with regard to the hunting issue, which again no doubt contributed to the lateral stabilizer failure, the reality is if you slam 120,000 lbs against that stabilizer it's going to fail much faster than if you throw 100,000 lbs against that same bracket. It's simple physics.

 

[Guest_gyuri_ft]

What is the reason these FRA requirements are not eased? So far, the trains in Europe run without major issues, so they do in FSU and China. Obviously, a train of ten foreign-made cars of a proven, safe design is better than no train at all. How realistic are these FRA requirements towards REAL safety and how much are they made to protect the market? If there is no train to run partly because of high equipment costs - there is no market than and nothing is to protect.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Fairly long story with good level of information contained in NYTimes article online at

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/24/national....html?th&emc=th

requires registration (Free) to access. Covers weight, congressional meddling, FRA regs that required redesign, tracks, comparisons with condition in Europe, 4 inch overwidth that meant they couldn't tilt through curves, etc.

Mentions Rep. Mic, anti-Amtrak from FLA, happens to be my congressman, and I have e-mailed him about it.

 

[Steve4031]

I believe that the FRA modifictions that made the Acela heavier would be the main cause of the Acela's problems. The additional weight, I suspect, makes it harder to predict the wear and tear on all parts of the train, especially brakes and stabilizers. In Europe, titlting trains operate in Germany, Italy, Norway, and Sweden as well as Spain with no problems that require that the entire fleet be taken out of service. Once again, the politicians in our country screw up when it comes to high speed rail.

 

[Miami Joe]

There are many ways to address FRA guidelines, car construction and track conditions when it involves investigating defects and accidents.

Since all the major US manufacturers are now a part of RR history, foreign construction is no longer an option, unless you're willing to try a "start up" company with no prior experience.

One thing I find interesting is how all the US parts companies have had to merge to survive or have been bought by foreign competition. The last sandcast truck foundry went bankrupt last yr and Alstrom had to buy it to finish a car order.

7 yrs ago, the Genesis trucks were experiencing stress fractures on the horizontal crossmembers. I saw one in CHI and it was 18-24" long with a 2-3 gap at the widest point! Engineers from Germany blamed the deplorable track condition. Genesis was designed for European railways.

European rail cars are comparable to aluminum beer cans! When you look at the accident that hit the bridge embankment a few yrs ago, the cars that didn't hit the overpass looked as bad as the cars that did! But, I can see the reasoning behind Europe's construction beliefs, because they have excellent track maintenance and few car crossings.

Amtrak deals with crossing incidents daily and need heavy cars in case of a collision in the middle of a consist.

Tell ya what!!! :lol:

If I knew a car was going to hit the train, I'd find a diner or crew car to hide in! I'll leave the V/L's for the those looking for an adrenaline rush!!

MJ B)

 

[saxman]

Wasn't Joe Vranich fired? And he's dedicating his life to find everything about how Amtrak runs, and finds a way to say how wrong it is. And he even wrote a book full of nonsense. Some "Amtrak expert."

Anyone read his book, "End of the Line? I want to, but I know it will only make me mad. Plus I refuse to even buy it. One more copy sold, is more money for his cause.

Anyone who saw the CBS story, send an email to CBS? Many news shows will read your emails on air if its good. I didn't watch the show so, I'm not sure what I'd write.

Chris

 

[PRR 60]

Correct, the brakes still worked and no train was ever in danger of not stopping.  The concern is that if the cracks widened and broke, that parts could fall off of the train.  Those pieces would then create a danger to a following train.

The risk was far more serious than that. These rotors are big, heavy pieces of steel. They are perfectly balanced on the axles to accommodate the high-speed rotation. If a rotor fails and a piece drops off at speed, all kinds of things can happen, and most of them are really bad. With the axle turning at about 5000RPM, expelled steel sections could penetrate the car underbody and impact passengers. The out of balance wheel and axle assembly could fail catastrophically and take the train with it. Basically, physical failure of a brake rotor on a high speed train is something you never, ever want to happen.

This is a much more serious failure than the cracked yaw damper brackets. It had the potential for a disaster. That is why the trains were yanked from service immediately.

 

[Eric X2000]

European rail cars are comparable to aluminum beer cans!  When you look at the accident that hit the bridge embankment a few yrs ago, the cars that didn't hit the overpass looked as bad as the cars that did! But, I can see the reasoning behind Europe's construction beliefs, because they have excellent track maintenance and few car crossings.

It is correct that the German ICE train has aluminum carbodies. But the Swedish X2000 is all stainless steel. The cars weigh from 112,000 lbs and up depending on equipment. The cab car and the power car weigh much more. The cars also have deformation zones.

 

[Miami Joe]

Stainless skin doesn't provide protection! :unsure:

I want to see the prints and see where the collision posts are and what they are made of! :lol:

Very few engineers feel safe with the Genesis front end! Damn! Even my car has a few feet of crush zone in front of the firewall!

MJ B)

 

[Amtrak OBS Employee]

Personally, I feel safer when I am riding in the old streamliner equipment, such as our crew cars or diners (the diner as long as I am not in the pantry if that sucker goes into emergency) than in the Viewliners, too. I feel fairly safe in the Amfleets, too, but I still prefer the Heritage cars. OBS...

 

[Eric X2000]

Stainless skin doesn't provide protection! :unsure:
I want to see the prints and see where the collision posts are and what they are made of! :lol:

Stainless steel provides very good protection. The collosion posts are in the right places and it is all steel. The Amfleet cars are also built of stainless steel.

 

[Guest_Gingee]

Okay, where does the old Cardinal fit in all this?

 

[AlanB]

Okay, where does the old Cardinal fit in all this?

All the cars, except for the sleeping car, are Amfleets. As mentioned above, Amfleets are stainless steel.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

While the Acela debacle has given Amtrak another black eye, it is also true that mechanical stuff like this DOES happen. And it probably ought to be considered that, if W's plan to get rid of Amtrak and put a bunch of separate, smaller regionals into operation had already been accomplished, there would be NO service right now in the NEC because NO regional operator would have been able to gather up enough alternate equipment to bridge the gap, as Amtrak is doing with metroliners and other equipment. ONLY a national rail system would have had the available equipment to at least temporarily "make good" the loss in equipment that Acela's trouble has caused. I hope that point is also being realized in Congress.

 

[AlanB]

While the Acela debacle has given Amtrak another black eye, it is also true that mechanical stuff like this DOES happen. And it probably ought to be considered that, if W's plan to get rid of Amtrak and put a bunch of separate, smaller regionals into operation had already been accomplished, there would be NO service right now in the NEC because NO regional operator would have been able to gather up enough alternate equipment to bridge the gap, as Amtrak is doing with metroliners and other equipment. ONLY a national rail system would have had the available equipment to at least temporarily "make good" the loss in equipment that Acela's trouble has caused. I hope that point is also being realized in Congress.

Very good point, but one that will probably be overlooked by many in Congress. Especially those who don't want Amtrak.