City of New Orleans

[lepearso]

I gather from other conversations in this forum that big changes are on the way for the City of New Orleans.

With the New Orleans crew base gone and the dining car gone, it appears that this train will turn into a daylight schedule with early departure/late arrival times at the two endpoints. With that, the sleeper cars will be gone.

Although change is hard to accept, I wonder if there could be a silver lining somewhere on this cloud.

For example, with the City of New Orleans changing to another schedule, could we expect the Illini to switch to an early morning northbound schedule? If indeed that's the plan, I think that riders in southern Illinois would appreciate being able to make an all day trip to Chicago and back, a la the Pere Marquette and the Blue Water Limited, both in Michigan.

Secondly, I would anticipate that the St. Louis connector bus would have more business if it is kept in service.

Thirdly, you can expect more business from Tennessee and Kentucky since both of those states will get daylight service instead of service at pre-dawn hours.

Tell me what you think about this.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I am very dubious about a daytime CHi-NOL schedule if that is really in the works.

The City of New Orleans originally (1941) was a high speed deluxe streamlined all coach day train, no resemblance to the train of the song or fhe present. It had a very rapid schedule-- about 16 or 17 hours-- leaving each destination about 7 a.m. hitting the end of the line about midnight, in each direction.

Today's schedule is about three hours slower than that. I do not see how a schedule today can reasonably do a sensible daytime performance. (the original train ran like hell to maintain the schedule back then and that with better track, passenger trains given more priority etc.)

It and the Panana Limited!! The Panama was the overnight all pullman and parlor car version of the same. Long story------ but later in life, after Amtrak was calling its overnight train the Panama Lmited, the then-mayor of NOl insisted that it be called the City of NOL and so has it been ever since.

But back to the daylime schedule ---I do not see how that can happen unless it leaves very ungodly early at the beginning or arrives well after midnght at the end of the line, and hopefully half way on time.

 

[Trogdor]

I'm also skeptical of this sort of arrangement.

The CHI-PHL Pennsylvanian was another example where Amtrak tried an early-morning-to-midnight coach-only day train, and the ridership was absolutely horrible.

Where will the traffic come from for this route? Leaving at 6 am (or whenever) and arriving at midnight will provide for *NO* connecting traffic. None. Nothing at NOL, and nothing at Chicago. Folks looking to save money certainly aren't going to entertain the notion of spending a night in either NOL (if it ever becomes a destination again) or Chicago (try finding a room anywhere for under $125/night). Folks more interested in a nice, comfortable ride (vs. saving money) aren't going to enjoy getting up at the crack of dawn to ride in a coach without even a dining car for lunch or dinner.

Without connecting traffic at either end, the City of New Orleans will have to stand on its own, as if it was separate from the entire rest of the system (because, essentially, it will be). That's a recipe for failure.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I like the points that Robert made very much.

One thing just struck me---something I said in my original post might confuse some people . It would not confuse Robert----or many others---but might ocnfuse some. That is when I referred to the original City of NO as "all coach". By saying that, I definately did not mean it had no diner. It of course had a diner and an observation lounge.("observation" not meaning dome or sightseer lounge, but a "lookout" area at the rounded end of the train.) And of course by calling the Panama Limited "all pullman and parlor car" I did not mean it didn't have a diner and lounge. Calling a train "all coach" just meant it did not have any sleepers.

But any such train in today's budget cutting situation , going all the long day from CHI to NOL and without any diner, would , indeed, as Robert indicated , be quite unappealing. (as well as not connecting with anything, etc, etc)

 

[battalion51]

It's getting the Palm/Palmetto treatment. If you look at the demise of the Silver Palm, it lost the sleepers and diner, then the route was cut, and now it's a daylight SAV-NYP train. The Palmetto however shows that daylight trains work, it does very well, and has been very successful since its makeover last year. Who knows what'll happen to the City though.

One potential downside, the Superliner equipment might go by the wayside, replaced with Horizon/Amfleet equipment, which would be a major downside.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

Here is the prob right now with NOL a lot of the employees that worked out of NOL have left NOL to work other places and to come back to NOL is not that easy depending on what Union you belong to with the contracts i know the ticket agents that left the NOL district can't come back without losing there senorty for 5 years which means if they have 25yrs with Amtrak for 5 yrs they will go to the bottom of the NOL senorty then after there 5 yrs they will gain there senorty back.OBS i am not sure but ticket agents and i belive OBS employees are coverd by the TCU union.The thing im gettin at is NOL crew base for all Amtrak employees is about %50 short of there employees.So untill this can be worked out the diner will prob stay off the CNOL i am working on getting it put back on since i work with Amtrak on promoting trains in MS.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

I will keep evryone informed of what is going on my goal is to make the CNOL get a lot more markiting and advertising but we need radio stations and the media to help out. That is why nothing has been done with this train very little help from the towns city's and media has caused the markiting to be done on the Crescent where the media is realy involved in markiting the train.

 

[Superliner Diner]

First off, New Orleans is going to be a point of debate for years. While some love their city and envision it returning to what it was, others may never return. Some advocate rebuilding the city elsewhere -- obviously on higher ground without being vulnerable to levees in the lake and the mighty Mississippi that snakes through the area.

It's understood too that a certain subset of the New Orleans population were Amtrak employees. NOL was a secondary hub in the system, a crew point, and a major yard/repair facility. Some of those New Orleans employees may never return to their jobs, at least not at that location because they either lost their homes or just don't want to go through another Katrina. But then, if the city is never rebuilt, or at least not rebuilt at its present location, why have it as a destination?

The CITY OF NEW ORLEANS name sure beats CITY OF HAMMOND as it's been for the last few weeks. But just who are they serving? The city may say it's repopulating, but it still remains vulnerable to flooding and it cannot possibly have been cleaned up and disinfected from the flooding, which as we know was not exactly clean water.

That said, I echo the points made about this train needing the transfer traffic on both ends. It is timed very well for several-hour connections to and from the east with the SUNSET LIMITED in New Orleans, and with almost all trains going through Chicago. Connections to and from the west between the CITY and the SUNSET are probably unnecessary, because of the existing connections (and through cars) between the SUNSET and the TEXAS EAGLE. Although New Orleans is a 24-hour type of town, not everyone wants to board a train at 6 AM or arrive around midnight. Even the existing CRESCENT schedule with the 7:20 AM northbound departure is less than stellar, but probably necessary to provide decent times in Atlanta and up the corridor, without having this train come into New York Penn Station at the height of the evening rush hour.

I agree that the ILLINI schedule, while it makes sense southbound (4:05 PM departure from Chicago gets transfers from most inbound trains), its northbound run (4:05 PM departure from Carbondale, 9:35 PM Chicago arrival) misses everything. Ideally, it should leave CDL about 7:30 AM, arriving in Chicago around 1 PM, thus making connections to most outbound trains. This would also save one trainset, since right now with two ILLINI trains operating at the exact same times there has to be two trainsets in operation.

I'm not so sure about the St. Louis Thruway connection from Carbondale to St. Louis. Currently it bridges the gap lost when there was a train called the RIVER CITIES, which was a New Orleans-Kansas City run. The RIVER CITIES ran coupled to the CITY OF NEW ORLEANS from NOL-CDL, then on its own to St. Louis, where it then operated to Kansas City in place of (or coupled to) the MULE. The motorcoach in its place also connects with the westbound MULE, and the eastbound MULE connects with the Carbondale-bound Thruway bus. So if they change the CITY's schedule that drastically, so would the schedule of the bus change, and finally they would have to fiddle with the MULE schedules as well in both directions. The MULES have been on thin ice themselves due to budget cut threats from the state of Missouri, so I don't think it would be wise to change their schedules to something less convenient.

Let's hope that cooler heads prevail here, and they keep the CITY on its current schedule. Of course the degraded conditions in NOL, and obvious losses in ridership from what they once had, will always be an issue. Amtrak's marketing should keep up on the happenings in the Big Easy, and provide information to passengers about what they can expect to find once they step off the train in NOL. If there are limited hotels open, many attractions still closed or in need of rebuilding, why is there a reason to take this train?

 

[Trogdor]

It's getting the Palm/Palmetto treatment. If you look at the demise of the Silver Palm, it lost the sleepers and diner, then the route was cut, and now it's a daylight SAV-NYP train. The Palmetto however shows that daylight trains work, it does very well, and has been very successful since its makeover last year. Who knows what'll happen to the City though.
One potential downside, the Superliner equipment might go by the wayside, replaced with Horizon/Amfleet equipment, which would be a major downside.

The difference between the City of New Orleans and the Palm service is trip time. The Palmetto's end-to-end time is 14-15 hours, meaning the train can leave in the morning and get to the endpoint in the evening.

The City of New Orleans is about 19 hours end-to-end. This means either an absolutely ungodly departure time of around 3 or 4 am, or an arrival after midnight.

I see this as more likely to look like the Pennsylvanian rather than the Palmetto. The Pennsylvanian's too-long-for-a-day-train schedule meant a 1 am arrival on the ends (later changed to have better times PGH-PHL, and later just dropped entirely west of PGH). Despite it being the only train to serve Ohio during daylight hours, it struggled to carry half a car full of passengers west of Pittsburgh.

The Palmetto also has better connections on the east coast, with the Carolinian and the overnight regional (66/67), not to mention the fact that the NEC between New York and Washington, DC, isn't exactly a string of one-horse towns.

On top of that, the Palmetto operates along what is essentially a long-distance "corridor" line, where several other trains per day operate (depending on exactly where you are on the route). Multiple frequencies can help a route by increasing the flexibility of the schedule, thus making the train more convenient than it would be if there was only one train per day.

The rescheduled City would have no connections (except for that Carbondale-St. Louis bus), and other than Chicago, doesn't really serve any "big" cities (I consider Memphis to be medium-sized).

The Illini goes as far as Carbondale, but beyond that, the City would be on its own.

 

[AlanB]

I see this as more likely to look like the Pennsylvanian rather than the Palmetto. The Pennsylvanian's too-long-for-a-day-train schedule meant a 1 am arrival on the ends (later changed to have better times PGH-PHL, and later just dropped entirely west of PGH). Despite it being the only train to serve Ohio during daylight hours, it struggled to carry half a car full of passengers west of Pittsburgh.

Hmm, while I can't speak to its overall performance the two times that I rode the Pennsy between Cleveland and Toledo, it had way more than half a car of passengers.

In fact going west when I got off the Pennsy to await the eastbound Capitol (I liked the better calling time than was available in CLE), I'd say that close to 30 people detrained with me.

Fully 3/4's of them wanted to connect to a Thruway bus to Detroit. Sadly, that was one Thruway bus that was very poorly run by the company Amtrak contracted with. When the bus pulled in, he only had two seats available for over 20 people.

The poor agent had to go nuts finding taxis to transport the stranded pax.

I understand that the numbers getting off in Chicago and New York weren't good, but AFAIK, there was good solid ridership between Philly and western Ohio/eastern Indiana.

 

[Superliner Diner]

Chicago (try finding a room anywhere for under $125/night).

Try the Cass Hotel, which appears to be steady at $69 single or $89 double per night. A small but manageable hassle there and back from/to Union Station via the Red Line, but worth the savings.

My son and I stayed there the last time we were in Chicago, which was the same day we met you in person.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

I doubt very seriously the CONO will be rescheduled that drastically (as an all daytime operation), but I can see the possibility of it leaving earlier especially southbound out of CHI if run thru situations permit. Because the CONO equipment runs thru to become the Texas Eagle, I don't see how scheduling the CONO to a daytime operation would work as of yet. I do know, however, a lot of the passenger traffic is on and off traffic at the intermediate stops and between those stops and to CHI. Again, my Louisianna source might be able to provide better info than mine.

As far as the fact they are running the train "Palm/Palmetto" style, we need to keep in mind one fact regarding the CONO. It is so the fact the train is running as bat51 states in the "Palm/Palmetto" style!. Remember the "Palmetto" bug ran from MIA-NYP just as it does now between SAV-NYP regarding the same consist and somewhat similar scheduling! And with fact that train operated between MIA-NYP with the trip through TPA, made that trip longer than the present CONO trip! The "Palmetto" ran for about a year and a half to two years in this fashion after it lost its dining car and sleeper! Coach ridership did not change much at all between MIA-SAV and the ridership was as strong as always in the usual daylight Carolinas portion of the trip! Because of that, the preceding illustates the point that a coach only overnight long distance train will work as far as management is concerned!

I made a few comments such as the following in the past to a couple of employee friends...

"They will run the train like this for now on, maybe truncate it, and they will look at other trains to fall as victim to the same fate!"

I know this well! This train was my regular job the whole time after the train went coach and business class only. I stayed on that train after I lost my dining car job which went to NYP on train #92 and returned back on train #89 to MIA. I always liked working the "Palm/Palmetto" even though I had to work the coaches (which I don't particularly like to do) because I could not hold a regular job in diner. It was either the "Palmetto" bug or the extra board! OBS...

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Follow up to my original post.

First, I was wrong, the City of NOL began 1947, not 1941.

In 1959 it had the honor of being named "Fastest train in the world". This was an annual speed survey done by TRAINS Magazine. A guy named something like Don Steffe created this every year. He did not measure end to end, but actual stops in between. An incredible accomplishment. Hopefully he had some primitive early version of a computer. Of course not that much changed every year so I guess it is not like he had to figure everything all over again every year.

The City fo NOL came in as fastest for going from Effingham to Centralia,IL, 53.2 miles in 39 min. That is an AVERAGE speed of 81.8. MPH. Speeds of 100 were allowed on several portions of the Illinois Central.

Here is a typical brief major stops schedule for the period.

Southbound

lv.CHI 7.45 a.m.

lv. St. Louis(through car via Carbondale) 10.17 a.m.

ar MEM 5.05. p.m

ar. Jackson 9 p.m.

ar. NOL 12.25 a.m.

NORTHBOUND

lv. NOL 7.10 a.m.

lv.Jackson 10.21 a.m.

lv.MEM 2 p.m.

ar. St.Louis(through cars via Carbondale) 8.40 p.m

ar. CHI 11.40 p.m.

 

[NativeSon5859]

Talking to a conductor on the southbound 59 about two weeks ago, he told me that the dining car on the City is probably gone for good. He said Amtrak has been looking at cutting it for a long time time, and the Hurricane situation made for the perfect chance to do this. Ridership to/from New Orleans will probably be less than stellar for some time, probably six months to a year, so I'm not sure that the dining car would even be needed for the short term. I think the schedules as they are now are pretty good...they allow for good west coast connections in CHI, and when the Sunset gets back up and running down the road, it will once again allow for easy connections to/from Florida.

I will say, though, that meal service for the sleeping car passengers needs to be spruced up a bit if they are going to not have a dining car. The box meals I got were ok, but they were nothing special. It was like the items in the box were just thrown in there. That's just a minor complaint, though.

 

[sechs]

Surely they can meet the kind of service that you get in first class on an airplane... in the United States.

 

[AmtrakFan]

Group,

I doubt the CONO will be going to a day time train but I could see it leaving Chicago earlier and New Orelans later to save 1 Train Set.

 

[trainboy325]

I returned from New Orleans today after spending some time with both labor and management and pretty much got the sense that times are going to be really tough at Amtrak. But first, here are facts as of Friday, October 14 in New Orleans:

The Station: the building is open to passengers, with access only at the east door. The ticket counter is open and has not moved. The Magnolia Room (First Class Lounge) is a police department office and is closed indefinately. The Subway/cafeteria and Greyhound area is closed off as a jail. There are no taxis at the station and very few bus lines operating. The streetcars are not running due to power line loss along the lines. The building is actually in the best shape I've ever seen it in since there was a restoration project in effect long before the storm and fortunately the building suffered minor water damage allowing for an easy cleanup of the site. I encourage those who travel into the city bring some personal supplies as stores and resturants are very limited and close early due to a lack of people available to work. Also note the city is under a curfew between midnight and 6:00 am enforced by the National Guard.

The Crew Base: T&E and OBS crew base management and support staff returned to duty on a very limted scale on Friday, October 7. Only ten T&E and eight OBS employees have been recalled. Due to the lack of Sunset Limited jobs, the vast majority of T&E labor still remains furloughed or have relocated to other posts. The eight OBS employees in NOL work solely as ready crew and 2 LSAs and Chefs have been called to operate a dining car in the station for all Amtrak and police employees working in Union Station due to the fact there are no resturants and grocery stores open in the immediate area. The diner serves primarily Acela food stock that piled up in the commissary in NYS during the period when the trains were out of service. They are charging everyone a nominal fee for the purchase of these items. As of now, the diner isn't open to the general public, but management is working on changing that as more and more Red Cross food stations begin to close in the nearby neighborhoods. Crews that come in on both the City and Crescent are staying at the Holiday Inn Superdome four blocks away on Loyola Avenue. During the first two nights following the return of trains to NOL, the crews overnighted in a Superliner sleeping car coupled to the diner as corporate negotiated a new lodging contract at the Holiday Inn. Prior to Katrina, crews overnighted at the Hotel LeCirque at Lee Circle (corner of Howard and St. Charles).

The Trains: Probably what most of you want to know. As of now, the Crescent is operating as a NYP train running full service. This is not expected to change. Any service cuts on the Crescent will be caused by forces and decisions affecting the entire railroad rather than one specifically geared at the train itself. As for the City of New Orleans, the plan is to bring the diner back- IF AND ONLY IF- New Orleans can reopen the OBS crew base in full. NOL management was furiously working to recall employees to work in NOL to staff the city as a FULL SERVICE TRAIN. However, it was obvious to me, other staff and management that the company was placing hurtles so high over their heads that they may not be able to get the number of people to meet the staff quota for the train. THE MAJORITY OF NOL EMPLOYEES ARE CHOOSING NOT TO WORK IN THE CITY. Many who evacuated or took jobs at new crew bases have found themselves in a situation they wish to remain in. It was expressed to me by management that the active attempt to bring back the crew base and the diner was just a rouse to appease the local politicans, federal, state and local. IF THE DINER DOES COME BACK, IT IS SCHEDULED TO RUN BEGINNING NOVEMBER 1ST. As for the Sunset Limited, no imformation regarding its on-board service was discussed. It is also scheduled to return to New Orleans ON OR ABOUT NOVEMBER 1ST pending a green light from both UP and BNSF which, according to T&E management, has been cleared for that date.

The information listed above are just the facts. Like everything else in the ongoing story of Amtrak, we'll see what happens. I cannot express enough wondering over what, when and how Amtrak trains will run isn't an issue for me anymore. I truly believe that the concept that passenger trains operating outside of the Northeast Corridor and in a few other spots is THE BIG ISSUE now. For those in this forum who want to ride long distance trains, plan to take a trip during the holidays. I've never seen so many old timers at Amtrak, both labor and management, really see that ugly things are going to happen and fall upon the entire passenger railroad community. Believe what you want about the future and service levels of long distance trains. Just remember the day, May 1, 1971, a lot of passenger trains ceased to operate and people learned it had become too late to save their passenger train.