Concrete ties?

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I recall that when I took the Canadian last summer, the car attendant told us that CN had laid concrete ties along several portions of their main line. However, due to the cold temperatures they began to fail prematurely and they had to rip them all out and replace them with wood ties. As we went along the route, you could see occasional piles of the discarded concrete ties.
 
As far as I know, UTA's TRAX (Light Rail) and FrontRunner (Commuter Rail) use concrete ties throughout the system, with the exception of curves and switches.

UTA-TRAX-Daybreak.jpg
 
As far as I know, UTA's TRAX (Light Rail) and FrontRunner (Commuter Rail) use concrete ties throughout the system, with the exception of curves and switches.
Is that Mount Timpanogos in the background?
Does not look like it. Mount Timpenogas looks like this from Lindon:

Mount_Timpanogos_995_px.jpg
 
As far as I know, UTA's TRAX (Light Rail) and FrontRunner (Commuter Rail) use concrete ties throughout the system, with the exception of curves and switches.
Is that Mount Timpanogos in the background?
Does not look like it. Mount Timpenogas looks like this from Lindon:

Mount_Timpanogos_995_px.jpg
I've only been out there twice now. I was thinking the farthest mountain "closest" to the train might be the head/face & chest. The train pic appears, to me, to have been taken north of Orem (where my daughter lives) looking southeast. Again, I've only been out there a couple of times and don't know the area very well.
 
I've only been out there twice now. I was thinking the farthest mountain "closest" to the train might be the head/face & chest. The train pic appears, to me, to have been taken north of Orem (where my daughter lives) looking southeast. Again, I've only been out there a couple of times and don't know the area very well.
Taken from the Daybreak community in South Jordan Utah, looking southwest toward the Oquirrh Mountains.
 
As I recall Mount Timpenogas looks quite impressive from Orem. For a period in the 90's when I worked for Novell, I had an office in the Wordperfect Campus in Orem (two doors down from CEO Frankenberg's office to boot!) with a beautiful view of the mountain. I used to spend my weeks there and weekends back in New Jersey. For those three years I regularly chocked up 1K status on United and spent countless nights in Denver as a result of missed connections. :) Almost all the regular crew on the Newark - Denver and Denver - Salt Lake City flight were on first name basis with me back then :)

back to Concrete ties..... NJT generally installs concrete ties first on platform tracks, and then fills in the inter-station parts later. On some segments like the Millburn to Summit ramp they did the Concrete ties installation in one fell swoop, first on the up grade track and then on the down grade track a couple of years later.
 
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As I recall Mount Timpenogas looks quite impressive from Orem. For a period in the 90's when I worked for Novell, I had an office in the Wordperfect Campus in Orem (two doors down from CEO Frankenberg's office to boot!) with a beautiful view of the mountain. I used to spend my weeks there and weekends back in New Jersey. For those three years I regularly chocked up 1K status on United and spent countless nights in Denver as a result of missed connections. :) Almost all the regular crew on the Newark - Denver and Denver - Salt Lake City flight were on first name basis with me back then :)
back to Concrete ties..... NJT generally installs concrete ties first on platform tracks, and then fills in the inter-station parts later. On some segments like the Millburn to Summit ramp they did the Concrete ties installation in one fell swoop, first on the up grade track and then on the down grade track a couple of years later.
The alcohol laws would just tick me off. I found myself in Moab on a Sunday trying to find something more than watered down beer.

I've been through American Fork Canyon. Impressive place.
 
Several quick thoughts on concrete ties / wood ties:

1. Whenever anybody starts down the "old school / new school" or "obsolete" versus modern and "out of date" versus "up to date" they are simply expressing opinion instead of using analysis.

2. We are not using 100 year old trees to make wood ties. Thirty is probably more like it, possibly even less in some areas. I can show you some oak trees that are not quite 60 years old that could probably produce 4 ties for any given length. There has been hand wringing for most of the past centrury that "we are running out of wood for crossties", and my understanding that they are still growing faster than they are being cut, in North America, at least. If you want to know more on the whole subject, google Railway Tie Association.

3. Only in the last several years has the cost of treated wood been pushed upward to the point that concrete ties begin to make sense, and even here there is no unanimity of opinion.

4. Note that the primary users and early users of concrete ties in the US have been transit properties and those systems for whom wood ties would be higher cost than the general aveage cost for wood. For example: Florida East Coast was an early convert. Think of the Florida climate and distance from source of good hardwoods. Kansas City Southern was also an early user, but then went back to all wood. They appear to be again trying concrete, but to what extent I do not know. Remember, both KCS and FEC operate in the nearest thing to a rain forest climate that this country has, and have termites that carry chain saws.

5. It has been admitted by some that operations such as transit properties that get their construction money out of a different bucket than their maintenance money tend to go for the things that last longer even if any form of present worth calculation would say it makes no sense to do so.

6. Concrete ties have been used for a much longer time in Europe, and probably also in India and other countries in that part of the world because the railroad traffic and economic situation is very different. First, the axle loads are much lighter. Second, good wood is harder to come by and more expensive. Two wars led to much deforestation in Europe. Population density works against leaving large tracts of land in forest in India.

7. See reason 6. The early concrete tie installation in the US were resounding failures due to the fact that the average axle loads in this country were close to the maximum axle loads in Europe, and the average axle loads in Europe, being mostly passenger service was between 1/;2 and 2/3 of their maximums.

8. The concrete in crossties must be very high quality. The normal design strength is 7000 psi. Compare that to the usual 3500 to 4000 psi concrete in buildings, and the more likely 2000 to 2500 psi concrete you would get for your driveway. The prestress design is also beyond that normal for bridge beams.

9. Maintenance processes are commonly different in Europe. The norm there is to pull up the entire track and replace all the ties in a given length, if not the whole thing, ties ballast and all. This means taking the track out of service for days at a time, so is only practical for systems that are primarily multiple track main lines. The US method is to replace only those componenets needing replacing. For rail, a length of rail can be pulled out and replaced in an hour or two. For ties, the norm is to replace around 1/3 or less at a time. Only in the last several years has it become acceptable to shut down a main line for a full day or to have 12 hour plus work windows so that it become reasonable to go for 100% replacement for a segment of track.

10. The process of changing tie type is a multi-year operation. Even if someone like UP were to decide to go 100% concrete ties it would still be over 30years before they got to 100% concrete. I would suspect that the Indian Railway did not suddenly change to concrete ties 10 years ago, but has been in process for a much longer time.

11. Steel ties have been used quite a bit in hot climate areas due to rot issues with wood, but they have their own set of problems, such as poor embedment in ballast leading to track instability, problems with shorting the signal system in signaled track, etc.
 
IIRC, Amtrak installed a bunch of concrete ties in the NEC sometime in the '80s(?) which turned out to be defective, so they had to redo everything. And if you search for "amtrak concrete ties defective" you'll find a number of similar, more recent stories. So the jury may still be out advantages of concrete ties.
One occasion was 2008, Charlie :

WASHINGTON (AP) - Amtrak must spend tens of millions of dollars to

replace defective ties on the heavily traveled Northeast Corridor or

risk delays and loss of business, the railroad warns.

The concrete ties were purchased beginning in the 1990s and have already

begun to crack, Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black said Wednesday. Concrete

ties normally last about 50 years. If concrete ties fracture severely,

they can't properly support the rails, Black said. He stressed that the

problem does not pose a danger because it was caught early and is being

addressed.

The total cost of fixing the problem is still unclear. But in its annual

funding request to Congress last week, Amtrak said it expects to spend

at least $23.5 million on it this year alone. Costs are likely to be

similar next year, Black said.

The ties are made by Rocla Concrete Tie Inc. at a plant in an Amtrak

maintenance yard in Bear, Del. Under the terms of the contract, Amtrak

said, the supplier must replace the defective ties for free but won't

reimburse Amtrak for the labor.

'Amtrak and Rocla are working together to ensure that the replacement

ties that they are providing us are top quality,' Black said. 'Amtrak is

comfortable that the manufacturer has corrected the problem.'

It's not the first time Rocla has been blamed for defects. New York's

Metro-North commuter railroad sued the company in 2006 for premature

cracks in ties purchased in 1997. The case was settled out of court.

Rocla agreed to replace the ties as part of the settlement, Metro-North

spokesman Dan Brucker said. That process is expected to be completed

within the next three years, Brucker said.

So far Amtrak has replaced about 5,000 defective ties on a spot basis,

lifting slow orders as the problem spots are fixed. In the spring, the

railroad plans to begin using a track-laying machine to replace ties

systematically, Black said. . . .

Black said he did not know how many of the 3.4 million concrete ties on

the corridor were supplied by Rocla since Amtrak began doing business

with the company in the early 1990s

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Additionally there was a lawsuit against Rocla by the T in Boston (MBTA) regarding warranty reduction. Tie failure began and the T didn't have the replacement warranty it thought it did. In 2011:

The MBTA has agreed to accept just $6 million in cash and IOUs to settle its $91.5 million suit against the manufacturer [Rocla] of defective concrete railroad ties that had to be ripped out and replaced along the Old Colony Commuter Rail line. The settlement brings an end to the T’s suit against Rocla Concrete Ties of Denver but results in taxpayers picking up the bulk of the cost for repair work for nearly 150,000 concrete ties that began crumbling and breaking in less than a decade rather than the 50 years they were touted to last.

Chemically, the mix for concrete ties, like any concrete, has to be spot-on or failure will occur. Rocla's website touts the company as prime supplier for BNSF. I remember when Santa Fe had its main system (wooden) tie plant in Albuquerque. Another plant was in Somerville Texas at one time.

One article mentioned India experimenting with American-made rubber ties. Made by Cazenovia, New York based NP&G Innovations, from recycled tires.

Both India and China cannot get enough wood to build standard creosote treated ties and concrete ties are too expensive.

Anyone ever get a tiny bit of creosote in your eye? Ouch!
 
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