Connecticut Inland Route and Albany - Boston Corridor (Compass Service)

[Lcon]

@NES28 I couldn’t agree more particularly as someone who lives just north of Springfield.
Now by Peter pan Schedule a trip from Springfield to Boston South station is a 2-3 hour trip 4 if traffic is really bad. (Been stuck in it on a PPB on a Summer day.) Flix or Greyhound shave that down some to about 1.5-2 hours assuming light to moderate traffic.
By Amtrak? Depends on departure unless you catch the Lakeshore limited it’s between 4-7 hours. This is as there is only one SPG to BOS direct train the Lakeshore limited 5:55pm track 1. All the others take you down the Harford corridor to New Haven where you catch the North East regional or the Acela. So a trip that many people take for work or recreation and should only take 2 hours becomes a 7 hour ordeal to cross a distance that should be less than 100 miles. The Lakeshore basically runs the proposed East west connector at 2.5 hours. One East a day, one west a day.

It’s easier for me living in NHP to get to NYC a farther distance by rail that it is to get to my own state capital.

 

[lordsigma]

Maybe not competitive at ideal times with no traffic. But it’s well known passenger rail can still be competitive even when it takes a bit longer than ideal driving conditions and typically it’s easier to be productive on intercity passenger rail than busses as you’re less crammed in. They do need the speed the route up a bit but there are plans to do so as part of the effort. the roads east of Palmer can get quite congested.

@Lcon - the point of the project is to add more trains on the lake shores route - phase 1 of the work will shave at least 20 minutes off the lake shore’s running time.

 

[fdaley]

typically it’s easier to be productive on intercity passenger rail than busses as you’re less crammed in.

I don't think we'll see a car-competitive time without the massive cost of building an entirely new right of way. But as Lordsigma points out, in the era of cell phones and laptops, there are a lot more people who'd be willing to consider a longer trip time if it means they have superior comfort and don't have to have their eyes fixed on the road ahead for the entire trip.

But the audience will be limited if the train takes hugely longer than driving, as it does now. If there are incremental improvements that could trim the Albany-Boston train trip to something closer to four hours, instead of the current five, then I think it could become a viable corridor, even though the drive time under ideal conditions is more like three hours.

 

[Lcon]

Maybe not competitive at ideal times with no traffic. But it’s well known passenger rail can still be competitive even when it takes a bit longer than ideal driving conditions and typically it’s easier to be productive on intercity passenger rail than busses as you’re less crammed in. They do need the speed the route up a bit but there are plans to do so as part of the effort. the roads east of Palmer can get quite congested.

@Lcon - the point of the project is to add more trains on the lake shores route - phase 1 of the work will shave at least 20 minutes off the lake shore’s running time.

In this case though I don’t believe that the existing service is realistically competitive at beyond a multi day excursion.
An End to end trip from Albany Rensselaer NY in a car is about 2.5-3.5 hours. The Lakeshore limited is about 5 hours on the same route that’s not great but considering the distance 167 miles end to end. If the improvements managed to Shave 5 of an hour off that’s still a 4.5 hour trip which would be a major improvement. However I question the demand for the end to end. Even with a substantial improvement I believe that the biggest benefits for such don’t leave the State Borders of Massachusetts. The aim of the Project is “yes to increase the number of trains that travel the Lake shore limited route” but what it has the potential to do is revolutionize the commute and day trip experience between Western Ma and Eastern Ma. As well as provide access to communities that have been abandoned by many modes of mass transportation other than cars.
Again the LakeShore limited offers 2.5 hours BOS to SPG. It offers about the same from SPG to ABL as it’s roughly equal distend. 90 SPG to BOS and 86 SPG to ABL.
Supposedly Western Mass had an estimated 10,000 “Super Commutes” who made trek from the Springfield metropolitan region to Bostons. 1Obviously not all of them have the ability to choose mass transit. For those that do the scheduling just doesn’t work.
Today they can spend up to 4 hours stuck on the mass pike in the event of an accident. Many start their commute very early in the morning in hopes of avoiding just that kind of traffic.
With the current service. The first Amtrak Departure from Springfield that could connect to Boston is actually irrelevant because the 4:45Am lays over 2 hours in New Haven CT for NER 190 which also has connections from the Valley Flyer 495 departure from Springfield at 7:05Am. The NER 190 gets into South station at 11:12Am far later than the usual 9 am start of work, that’s assuming no problems along the way.
To arrive for a 9 am start of work in Boston by rail you would have to start your trip the day before. Departing by no later than 7:25 pm to arrive in Boston for 12:15Am. 2
The fastest routings are often extremely expensive due to using the Acela but without the speed benefit as the only HSR segments are short spots in eastern mass.
This pretty much gives Peter Pan bus a monopoly on mass transit Commuting between Springfield and Boston.
The Lakeshore limited doesn’t allow day trips as the Eastbound departure is at 12:50 PM with a 3:15 arrival and the westbound is a 5:50pm with an 8pm arrival. Meaning that you could only get maybe 2 and three quarters hours in Springfield mass.
Any anything you want to do in Boston requires a place to stay as that late at night there are no connections heading via the NER or Acela that could take you back to Springfield.
This segment of the Passenger rail network of NEC is kinda like sitting in orbit of a Blackhole. The whole thing draws you like Gravity to the South west. Where New Haven Union Starion the Event Horizon of the the Collapsed Star of the Penn central waits to Spaghettify you into New York City.

 

[lordsigma]

It will be difficult to make it car competitive for end to end trips on the whole Albany to Boston route I totally acknowledge that. West of Springfield would be difficult to speed up. The most feasible section to speed up is Springfield to Boston where I think you could get it down to a sweet spot time. This is why they’re starting out with Inland service rather than Albany. In addition to improving the track out to Worcester they also need to make sure Keolis doesn’t stick the new trains behind local commuter trains as they often do to the lake shore limited east or Worcester.

 

[Trollopian]

Maybe not competitive at ideal times with no traffic. But it’s well known passenger rail can still be competitive even when it takes a bit longer than ideal driving conditions and typically it’s easier to be productive on intercity passenger rail than busses as you’re less crammed in...

And it depends critically on whether you need a car at your destination. That's the huge comparative advantage of rail travel: from dense city center to dense city center. When I travel to NYC I sure don't want to be burdened with a car. Okay, that's perhaps not the greatest example, because even the regular (not Acela) train is faster than driving. But DC to Pittsburgh? Nearly 8 hours and some people think I'm nuts. "You can drive it in four and a half." Except that I don't wanna.

 

[Literalman]

I disagree that Inland Route improvements would benefit only travel within Massachusetts. I've ridden Inland Route trains and the Lake Shore now and then, but always for interstate travel, even when I lived in Boston. I live in Pennsylvania now, and I traveled to Pittsfield using the Lake Shore for one leg of the trip earlier this month, and from Pittsfield to Syracuse. I have family near Framingham, so I've ridden the Lake Shore to there. Faster, more frequent, more reliable trains on the Inland Route will benefit interstate travel.

 

[west point]

As usual some posters only think of the end point. Meridian, Hartford, Windson, Springfield, Palmer, Worcester, Fareham, & others will all benefit for inland route service. Start the service now with 1st departure at 0600 SPG and maybe one at 0730. then stasrt improvements to quickly get to 2 hours SPG <> BOS and eventually 1-1/2 hours. Have one leave BOS 0600 - 0630 going thru to New Haven with important stops at Hartford,

 

[Lcon]

I disagree that Inland Route improvements would benefit only travel within Massachusetts. I've ridden Inland Route trains and the Lake Shore now and then, but always for interstate travel, even when I lived in Boston. I live in Pennsylvania now, and I traveled to Pittsfield using the Lake Shore for one leg of the trip earlier this month, and from Pittsfield to Syracuse. I have family near Framingham, so I've ridden the Lake Shore to there. Faster, more frequent, more reliable trains on the Inland Route will benefit interstate travel.

The Biggest benefits are payed inside Massachusetts for the state’s infrastructure projects. I hold to that. Not only as that’s what’s getting the investment for work in phases but also as the way the Subdivisions we are talking about string and the Lakeshore limited brakes down.
Beyond Pittsfield you would be getting diminishing returns due to other conflicts and scheduling.
@Literalman you point to a Pittsfield to Syracuse NY city pair. Here the problem on getting that benefit. The Origin Pittsfield is at the end of the Massachusetts segment of line, The very next stop heading west is Albany Rensselaer NY and the transition from the Berkshire Subdivision to the Empire corridor. Assuming everything has gone to plan the train arrives on schedule from PIT to ALB. (currently the delay is often on the 449 from Boston due to the single line but we are talking after the improvements)
The next leg isn’t guaranteed to do the same.
Because the Lakeshore limited 449 has to merge with its sibling Lakeshore limited 49. To form the Lakeshore unlimited mega zord…
I mean to form the Westbound Lakeshore limited with your stop in Syracuse on its way to Chicago.
The question is whether that Combination train is also getting an expanded schedule? And if so how far? Buffalo? Chicago?
Is there the demand for that? How much? And then the visa Versa. If you do the Full Lakeshore limited but it gets delayed which which can and does happen often badly. What happens to the potential commuters?

As usual some posters only think of the end point. Meridian, Hartford, Windson, Springfield, Palmer, Worcester, Fareham, & others will all benefit for inland route service. Start the service now with 1st departure at 0600 SPG and maybe one at 0730. then stasrt improvements to quickly get to 2 hours SPG <> BOS and eventually 1-1/2 hours. Have one leave BOS 0600 - 0630 going thru to New Haven with important stops at Hartford,

Lakeshore limited 448 and 449 service expansion on its own has a huge benefit impact inside the ALB to BOS area.
Beyond the MBTA bubble on Boston Metropolitan area passenger rail seems to vanish at Worcester.
Until Springfield where it picks up limited north bound along the Connecticut River line and plentiful Southbound via Amtrak and CTRail via the Harford Line though New Haven.
Pittsfield has some independent NYC access via Albany in the Summer months but very limited. And almost No service to Albany other than the Lakeshore limited the rest of the year.
What this starts to do is basically establish the first steps to a true regional rail system inside the Bay state from end to end.

Via the Hartford line yes you would see increased access to passenger south and north. As more
Travelers have options however I suspect it’s not enough to create a true alternative to the Shoreline route of access from Boston to NYC or Visa Versa.
The Hartford line has potential, but also it has a few Choke points. It’s partially double tracked but Hartford Union Station and the I84/I91 funnel it to single track. Hartford Union is served today by a single elevated platform the old second platform was removed due to age and cost cutting in the 90s. With highway viaducts and development that took place in the 20th century the Station is caged in. For the last decade+ Harford and the State of Connecticut have been arguing around what to do. An Inland route is laced right in the middle of that. They were supposed to have figured out a plan in 2019 for their version of the big dig but it’s still an mystery. A true Inland route that could hypothetically bypass the Bottlenecks of Eastern Connecticut railway I believe can’t be done without modernization of Hartford’s railroad station. Unless you intend to bypass it.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

As usual some posters only think of the end point. Meridian, Hartford, Windson, Springfield, Palmer, Worcester, Fareham, & others will all benefit for inland route service. Start the service now with 1st departure at 0600 SPG and maybe one at 0730. then stasrt improvements to quickly get to 2 hours SPG <> BOS and eventually 1-1/2 hours. Have one leave BOS 0600 - 0630 going thru to New Haven with important stops at Hartford,

One possible use would be for Central Mass residents to be able to access Bradley Field (BDL) the airport near Windsor Locks CT as an alternative to traveling to Logan. That would require good connecting transport between the Windsor Locks station and the airport. I'm not sure what the situation is currently.

 

[NES28]

An Inland Route with fast, frequent service would increase the rail market share as well as serve Worcester (rather than Providence).

 

[MARC Rider]

An Inland Route with fast, frequent service would increase the rail market share as well as serve Worcester (rather than Providence).

Actually, that makes some sense, as the population of Worcester is twice that of Providence (within the city limits, that is, the Providence Metro area has more people.) Now they have to schlep into Boston if they want to ride the train down to New York, whereas with Inland line service they can get the possibility of a one-seat ride.

 

[west point]

, whereas with Inland line service they can get the possibility of a one-seat ride.

Years ago had many weekends laying over at Windsor Locks Bradley field. Had relatives in BOS area on MBTA. Was a pain going to New Haven - Bos - MBTA. LSL back to Springfield with limo to hotel.

 

[lordsigma]

Sounds like FRA notified CRISI winners - this local story was dropped yesterday:

https://www.masslive.com/news/2023/...ster-project-will-spur-passenger-service.html

 

[lordsigma]

https://www.youtube.com/live/1uqSIU5HIpo?si=_bmbTO4a3LNF4EtO

 

[joelkfla]

https://www.youtube.com/live/1uqSIU5HIpo?si=_bmbTO4a3LNF4EtO

Can you summarize please? The video is 27 minutes long.

 

[lordsigma]

Can you summarize please? The video is 27 minutes long.

Sure sorry. They received $108 million from FRA from the CRISI program for track improvements on the former B&A between Springfield and Worcester. This includes reclassification of the track to allow a MAS of 79 MPH, general speed improvements on the curvier sections, and some expanded sidings and new double track connecting between two existing double track segments in Palmer and Springfield which will create a continuous double track from Westfield to east of Palmer. The work also includes a new siding for CSX interchange with the Grafton and Upton Railroad east of Worcester on the
MBTA owned portion of the B&A to reduce freight and passenger conflicts when CSX and G&U are working the interchange. This will allow Amtrak to operate two inland route trains that will operate the inland route from New Haven via Hartford, Springfield, Worcester, and Boston instead of the shore line. One target of the current phase of work is a two hour travel time between South Station in Boston and Springfield Station for the existing Lake Shore trains 448/449 and the two new trains. A separate state funded project is constructing a new passenger rail station in Palmer that would eventually serve the three per day service created by this project. The state funded separate but related station project also includes work MassDOT agreed to do in Pittsfield as part of the CSX - Pan Am merger negotiations to install a side track for Amtrak to park the Berkshire Flyer trainsets off the mainline at Pittsfield station and some other improvements at Pittsfield for potential future Albany - Boston service. A future unclear and unfunded phase would fund improvements allowing for 2-3 Albany - Boston trains which would fill out the desired 5-6 per day RTs between Springfield - Worcester - Boston.

 

[daybeers]

install a side track for Amtrak to park the Berkshire Flyer trainsets off the mainline at Pittsfield station

How much is this costing for the abysmal ridership on that route?

The East-West Rail project has been so watered down and now CSX is just getting its pet projects funded by the government.

 

[fdaley]

If this can shorten the travel time from Boston to Springfield to a reliable 2 hours, I think that would be a huge improvement. The Lake Shore now is carded at 2:36 for the 98-mile run, and when I rode it earlier this week, I'm not sure it ever topped 50 mph; most of the time it was chugging along at about 40, and it crept along at 15-20 for the last couple miles into Springfield, arriving about 10 minutes late. It felt very slow.

At 2 hours, the train still would not be as fast as driving, but it would be within a range where more people would consider it because of its superior comfort and the fact that one can work and not have to have one's eyes fixed on the road ahead for the entire trip.

Frequency of service is the other factor needed to make this a successful corridor. For a comparatively short route like this, we need to get to 5-6 round trips, rather than 2-3, as quickly as possible.

 

[Fenway]

If this can shorten the travel time from Boston to Springfield to a reliable 2 hours, I think that would be a huge improvement. The Lake Shore now is carded at 2:36 for the 98-mile run, and when I rode it earlier this week, I'm not sure it ever topped 50 mph; most of the time it was chugging along at about 40, and it crept along at 15-20 for the last couple miles into Springfield, arriving about 10 minutes late. It felt very slow.

At 2 hours, the train still would not be as fast as driving, but it would be within a range where more people would consider it because of its superior comfort and the fact that one can work and not have to have one's eyes fixed on the road ahead for the entire trip.

Frequency of service is the other factor needed to make this a successful corridor. For a comparatively short route like this, we need to get to 5-6 round trips, rather than 2-3, as quickly as possible.

The owner of Peter Pan Bus Peter A. Picknelly III will fight rail upgrades to the death and he has clout on Beacon Hill.

Before the Mass Pike opened the B&A could do Boston/Springfield in 90 minutes - that would be tricky today with commuter rail running more trips more trips between Boston and Worcester.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

The owner of Peter Pan Bus Peter A. Picknelly III will fight rail upgrades to the death and he has clout on Beacon Hill.

I feel this is misguided on Mr. Picknelly's part. His real competition is driving not Amtrak. Better rail service will cause more people to consider using public transportation rather than driving and he might actually get more business if for example someone uses the train one way but finds the bus to be a better schedule for the return trip.

 

[lordsigma]

At 2 hours, the train still would not be as fast as driving, but it would be within a range where more people would consider it because of its superior comfort and the fact that one can work and not have to have one's eyes fixed on the road ahead for the entire trip.

This would be about the right time you’d need. Most similar services with this class of track aren’t going to be faster than driving in ideal conditions at road speed limit as you also lose time at station stops. Though driving to Boston can be more than 2 hours with traffic and if you take into account parking etc.

 

[JWM]

I can't help but think that a true high speed service on this route for through NYP-BOS trains would be a winner as there would be less impediments such as opening bridges etc on the Shore Line. One step at a time, I guess. So far as Peter Pan goes, they benefit from the federal and state highway systems and have no cause to complain. Like millions, I would much rather be on a train than a bus.

 

[Fenway]

I feel this is misguided on Mr. Picknelly's part. His real competition is driving not Amtrak. Better rail service will cause more people to consider using public transportation rather than driving and he might actually get more business if for example someone uses the train one way but finds the bus to be a better schedule for the return trip.

Picknelly is following the family legacy.

As regional bus operations go Peter Pan has always been top-notch, when they absorbed RI-based Bonanza 21 years ago nobody really complained. Being from Springfield they focused on service to Hartford and NYC as Boston to them was a soft market.

30 years ago they got stronger in Boston with a lucrative deal with Foxwoods Casino in Connecticut as patrons had the illusion they were actually making money taking the bus. The problem was they let their guard down and the Chinese companies took a huge share of the Boston/NYC market.

This would be about the right time you’d need. Most similar services with this class of track aren’t going to be faster than driving in ideal conditions at road speed limit as you also lose time at station stops. Though driving to Boston can be more than 2 hours with traffic and if you take into account parking etc.

 

[fdaley]

This would be about the right time you’d need. Most similar services with this class of track aren’t going to be faster than driving in ideal conditions at road speed limit as you also lose time at station stops. Though driving to Boston can be more than 2 hours with traffic and if you take into account parking etc.

My yardstick for success is the Downeaster, which covers the 114 miles from Portland to Boston in 2 hours 30 minutes. Supposedly one can drive or take a bus in two hours flat, but tons of people ride the train because it's more comfortable, more fun, has a cafe on board, and the view out the window is more interesting than staring at the median on the Maine Turnpike. Even so, if the train took 3 hours, it'd be a tougher sell.

And some people who make the trip a lot use both train and bus, relying on the bus to fill some of the gaps in the train schedule.