Not exactly the same method, but they certainly charge different prices for the same movies at different times, based on the exact same criteria: How many people are expected to show up.
Cost of a roomette - are they kidding?
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ralfp
Service Attendant
Sure there's a logic. It's just not as good as pricing based on demand. You'd screw over the person willing to pay only $100, and not get maximum revenue from those willing to pay $300.
The trick is not to sell too many $100 seats. You have to accurately predict how many $200, $300, etc. seats you will be able to sell. In practice this means dynamically changing the number of seats in each bucket. The airlines are getting pretty good at this. Amtrak, with fixed price fare buckets with a fixed number of seats in each, could certainly learn something.
amtrakwolverine
Engineer
ok how about this. may 2009 empire builder Chicago to sea. roomette is $617.
K
Karl
Guest
OK, I am only a numbers person in being a big part of a small business.
The key to your answer is right in your question "... and fill every seat...".
Amtraks challange is to try to generate the maximum amount of revenue while achieving the goal of "preserving" passenger train routes. Then try to actually be a player in the transportation jungle. While I dont like the bucket system from the stanpoint as a potential customer I dont want to second guess management (Dont second guess the Fire Chief, the buildings going to burn down whatever we do).
Many of the suggestions in this thread are to contact your congressman. This is accurate as Congress (via the subsidy) is Amtraks major customer.
It does seem counter intuitive to have the bucket pricing though. Lets look at (from the outside) at costs of running a train. Lets start with the minumum (with amenities), an engine, sleeper, diner, coach, onboard staff, maintainance support, reservations, etc. Its going to cost about the same to run from AAA to BBB whether there is 1 passenger or the train is full (40? + 80? = ~120), plus whatever costs occur directly per passenger. So the costs drop off dramatically per passenger until we are full. Then we add another car, so the cost jumps up to absorb the costs of running that one car with one passenger, again when its full cost per passenger drops (as the cost of running the train with one extra car is not that much). So the costs are zig zagging up and down (tending down) as we add cars, and eventually engines. I hope Amtrak has a model of this pattern, I expect they do as management somehow seems to make a lot of good long term decsions.
So maybe the pricing/subsidy model Congress and Amtrak should use is more of a subscription for service where Congress buys the full train, with credit for cars and engines not used if not needed for passengers. Amtrak then sells what tickets it can. Congress then should direct government agencies to use rail whenever practical "purchasing" the tickets as Congress has already paid for them. The key point here is Amtrak would then have a cost target to show an operational "profit". Of course the way it is done is most years "how much do you need, you will get half that".
Karl,
Your right on in my opinion.. I have no quarrel with the price quoted a few letters above for the price of the roomette NY to Chicago.. What I have an issue with is the poor person with the death in the family, or sudden reason to go.. They may be stuck paying up to nearly 800.00 for a roomette..
So in agreement here, I also have long said, and tried to point out with the airlines, that if you provide a service and plenty of space the public will come. The successful airlines such as Southwest have done quite well along these lines. The problem here is there is no one to discount Amtraks fare. So you either pay the 1,200 dollar bedroom fee when you have to go quickly on some routes or you stay home.. I don't see that as the reason we have a National Rail system. If as in the case of airlines other companies were selling tickets much lower, you would no doubt find the prices lower.
To me it would make much more sense to fill a car than run it half empty because the fare is too high.. Now we know that that is not exactly what is going on now. As I pointed out earlier, the vast rail fan base that Amtrak caters too mostly is happy to pay anything no matter how high in order to ride. But that is for a rather limited set of people.. To truly see crowds that once rode the trains I feel a more reasonable rate should be charged. I don't quite understand all these arguments about "business models".. When the government took over the passenger system I don't think any one thought they were a money making situation..
As to the airlines charging much higher rates for first class, no doubt they do.. Probably as I read supported mostly by those who can deduct it as a travel expense. Even in that case though competition probably is holding down the price somewhat. If it were government run it could charge anything it wanted by our theories. This again as I keep repeating goes back to its a government run service similar to highways, or anything else the government decides to support. We can endlessly send money to other countries that hate us, we can spend money out of site on banks, or wars, but by god don't spend it on the poor rail passenger system.. It has to cover its own expenses.. That applies to nothing else just about. So I can't support the idea to just keep raising rates when we already own the system or cars or whatever..
Your right on in my opinion.. I have no quarrel with the price quoted a few letters above for the price of the roomette NY to Chicago.. What I have an issue with is the poor person with the death in the family, or sudden reason to go.. They may be stuck paying up to nearly 800.00 for a roomette..
So in agreement here, I also have long said, and tried to point out with the airlines, that if you provide a service and plenty of space the public will come. The successful airlines such as Southwest have done quite well along these lines. The problem here is there is no one to discount Amtraks fare. So you either pay the 1,200 dollar bedroom fee when you have to go quickly on some routes or you stay home.. I don't see that as the reason we have a National Rail system. If as in the case of airlines other companies were selling tickets much lower, you would no doubt find the prices lower.
To me it would make much more sense to fill a car than run it half empty because the fare is too high.. Now we know that that is not exactly what is going on now. As I pointed out earlier, the vast rail fan base that Amtrak caters too mostly is happy to pay anything no matter how high in order to ride. But that is for a rather limited set of people.. To truly see crowds that once rode the trains I feel a more reasonable rate should be charged. I don't quite understand all these arguments about "business models".. When the government took over the passenger system I don't think any one thought they were a money making situation..
As to the airlines charging much higher rates for first class, no doubt they do.. Probably as I read supported mostly by those who can deduct it as a travel expense. Even in that case though competition probably is holding down the price somewhat. If it were government run it could charge anything it wanted by our theories. This again as I keep repeating goes back to its a government run service similar to highways, or anything else the government decides to support. We can endlessly send money to other countries that hate us, we can spend money out of site on banks, or wars, but by god don't spend it on the poor rail passenger system.. It has to cover its own expenses.. That applies to nothing else just about. So I can't support the idea to just keep raising rates when we already own the system or cars or whatever..
darien-l
OBS Chief
Try May 21. It still shows the lowest bucket price of $206 for a roomette CHI-SEA. Basically, there are two ways of booking the lowest bucket price: 1) Book 11 months in advance or 2) Be flexible with your travel dates. The more popular the train and the closer to departure date you are, the more flexible you have to be.
Rail Freak
Engineer
Are there waiting lists for sleepers?
T
Tony
Guest
I think another way to think of it, is an example of an empty train (instead of a full train).
The $100 coach fare would catch the attention of a potential passenger. In other words, the potential passenger would weigh taking a train that might be at a more inconvenient time or on a more inconvenient day, and save themselves $200 ($300 vs $100). These way, the empty train (lowest bucket) will start to gain passengers, over the train which is already nearly full (highest bucket).
The bucket system is meant to address running trains which are empty.
T
Tony
Guest
And don't forget that the numer for 1949 does not include meals in the dining car. So that would further drive up the grand total when one feeds those costs into the inflation calculator.
First, the cars aren't running half empty, especially the sleepers. Sleeper occupancy is at an all time high. We actually had an extra SA in the diner both ways on the SWC because the sleepers are sold out, something that is unusual for this time of the year. Amtrak actually called in people off the extra board to add a second SA to the diner. As I type this now on the Chief, the two regular sleepers are sold out, and about half the rooms in the Trans/Dorm where I'm at are sold. And it wouldn't surprise me if we pick up still more in the dorm tonight and tomorrow.
When Greg (gswager) stepped off the train in Lamy giving up room #18, there was a couple boarding in Lamy for Chicago who had the very same room. They were a bit upset that the room wasn't exactly clean, since the attendant hadn't had anytime to do anything with the room after Greg detrained. And Greg didn't leave a messy room either, but there was a used towel and I guess some trash in the trash can.
Even coach is reasonably full, I'd say probably 80% or more.
Second, sadly that is exactly what was sold to Richard M Nixon and others to form Amtrak. The idea that it would be a profitable/money making operation. Had it not been sold that way, we probably wouldn't have Amtrak at this time. President Nixon wasn't keen on the idea at all from what I understand.
Sadly, that idea of making a profit has been shoved down our throats ever since by those opposed to subsidizing Amtrak.
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sky12065
Conductor
IMHO I think that this is the best argument in favor of the bucket system. It permits one with a flexable schedule to seek out more affordable fares while at the same time it has the potential of preserving available accomodations on busier days, at least for a longer period of time; and that would be helpful for those who have less flexable schedules!
T
Tony
Guest
Back in another century, railroads were the combination of the worse of Enron and Exxon. At least in the general public's eye. It was always a good political move, for any politician, to take any side that would be perceived as being anti-railroad. The goal was to destroy these "mean" monopolies and their "railroad barrons".
That mindset lead to the political move to subsidize every and any form of alternative transportation that came along. Anything that had the potential to tare down the railroads.
That is why today, we have subsidized air travel. Subsidized marine travel. Subsidized truck/car travel. And no one thinks it is wrong.
But dare to mention subsidizing railroad travel too, and over 100 years of hatred comes to every one's mind (even if not exactly consciously). It is still policitally OK today to be an anti-railroad bigot.
printman2000
Engineer
Again, if the prices were lower, there would be no empty rooms for those last minute travelers. At least now, they have the option. Also, they do not have to stay home, they can go in coach which I have found the prices to be extremely affordable. No, its not sleeper, but it is perfectly acceptable, inexpensive travel.
Yes, many railfans are willing to pay a lot for sleepers. However, Amtrak is selling out sleepers and it is not all railfans doing it. I would say it is a very small percentage of railfans. So I come back to the fact that they are selling out sleepers (or coming close to selling out) at the rates they are now charging. If those rates were "more reasonable," that just means they would have sold them out many months earlier.
To see the crowds we once saw, cheaper sleeper fares are not going to do it. We would need a big time expansion of the passenger rail system with new (restored) routes and much more frequency. Changing the fares will never get us back to the heyday.
ralfp
Service Attendant
$206 ($492 total for two people)!?! That's not much more than CHI-NYP. Imagine what 2 nights in a cheap hotel and 2 days of eating in cheap restaurants would cost (certainly more than $206). $617, even for the roomette itself, is still amazingly cheap. Compare it to domestic first class airfare (which probably does not include a real meal);
Really? I don't see how this can be the case for anyone younger than 40 - 50. We've never experienced railroad barons, so it's hard to see how younger people could have an unconscious "hatred".
ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
Exactly. These sleeper prices make perfect sense. Not only do they fit with the adjusted inflation- the Govt. shouldn't be subsidizing sleepers. If you can afford to have a sleeper you shouldn't need the govt. subsidy.
T
Tony
Guest
If $206 is the accommodation upgrade price, then it covers all people staying in that accommodation. In other words, for a roomette, it would be $206 total for two people.
I wonder how many congresspeople are under 40?
Besides, the root reason doesn't even have to be known anymore. If it is "tradition", then people will continue to simply go with it. For example, just how good of a harvest will you personally be having his fall, and will you base your family's celebration of Thanksgiving (or not) on it?
ralfp
Service Attendant
Amtrak doesn't agree. They charge per passenger in addition to the accommodation charge (though AGR redemptions include the passengers). For the $492 I mentioned, it includes the cost of the roomette and two passengers.
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Aloha
The "Bucket" system started I believe in Hotel room prices. I have seen room charges in one hotel be 50 per night on slow nights to 700 for New Years Eve.
The "Bucket" system started I believe in Hotel room prices. I have seen room charges in one hotel be 50 per night on slow nights to 700 for New Years Eve.
ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
If you're willing to gamble- wait until the last few weeks to book hotels. Unsold rooms go into low bucket price automatically!
Or book with Hilton Family hotels and just keep checking the rates. If the price drops, modify your reservation and grab the cheaper rate. I've done this many times.
Join Hilton Honors and you'll also get 500 AGR points for your stay at most of the family hotels, in additiona to HH points.
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ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
I don't stay in places with HH- if I go to a city, I stay with somebody I know or live outside the city. When I went to PDX, I stayed in Tualitin, OR.Or book with Hilton Family hotels and just keep checking the rates. If the price drops, modify your reservation and grab the cheaper rate. I've done this many times.
I got a GREAT deal at a Best Western in SEA though.
To each their own.
Personally I like Hilton's and they've paid for one of my Amtrak trips by giving me 50,000 AGR points over the past few years.
ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
I don't have much in the way of getting AGR besides traveling.To each their own.
Personally I like Hilton's and they've paid for one of my Amtrak trips by giving me 50,000 AGR points over the past few years.
Maybe by retirement I'll have enough for a BC upgrade.
I would say your correct, the real issue is that to get the sleepers to a reasonable price we need many more sleepers.. I have been writing that all along if anyone is reading it? I would bet that many long distance trains hauled at least 5 sleepers, and some were all sleepers. In that case the likely hood of having rooms available at reasonable prices would be pretty good. Its the limited amount of rooms. As it is now, if only about 30 people a day want to use the exisiting trains and go bedroom, on the NY/Chicago routes that is the end of them. Now we all know that if trains continue to grow, it could sell to way more than 30 people.. So we need new cars, better diners and lounges and get back to running really useful trains, not skeletons of ones that we can say are "sold out".. Humbug..
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