Could Amtrak Subcontract Dining

[Green Maned Lion]

Does Amtrak build its own trains? No. It farms that out to companies with the engineering expertise, experience, and resources to do it. Does it smelt the iron for the rails? No, for the same reason. And for the same reason Amtrak should probably look to the experts at the forefront of dining trends for suggestions on how to improve its offerings.

Amtrak has not only built a few of their own cars, but they have re-built every last one of their cars enough times that they may as well build them themselves. The Viewliner? Its an Amtrak design, and a damned good one. The fact that MK couldn't assemble them properly is a different story. Amtrak converted coaches into diners. Real diners. And what about Beech Grove? I don't know if you saw that car prior to its conversion, but I will tell you they pretty much built that sucker from the ground up.

Amtrak isn't in the mass production business, but they do engineer, design, and build rail cars. They consult with companies, or they did, most notably Edward G. Budd Company.

As ALC pointed out, Amtrak works with Aramark who provides the food for their diners. The chefs they have are highly trained chefs. In the beginning, some of them had worked preparing gourmet meals on trains for most of their lives. That they can't make money doing this has more to do with the reality that railway food sevices have never been profitable. Even the famous name trains took baths on their food service.

You know nothing about how to sell these trains. They aren't tourist traps on wheels, they are functional transportation devices, transporting people from point A to point B. Advertise me with the comfort and lack of stress, not the presence of American over-marketing, something that is generally lacking from Amtrak trains. And they are better off for it. Amtrak is a public utility for moving people from point A to point B. They do not have to make money, and asking them to do so is Quixotic. A governments job is to provide for its people. Amtrak is one of the things our government provides us- reasonably priced rail service with the option of premium service at a cost-covering price.

Amtrak, despite being underfunded for all 38 years of its life, despite being a political football, a favorite whipping boy, and a victim of unreasonable demands, provides service. They provide damned good service. In terms of domestic transportation, their service is not only good, it is nonpareil. What they provide is in general a miracle, a display of what can happen when a company is propelled forward by a dedicated workforce, most of which give 110% most of the time. They are broken for one reason, and that is they haven't been given the resources to do a good job. They do an exceptional job without the resources, imagine what they can do if they had them.

 

[volkris]

Amtrak isn't in the mass production business, but they do engineer, design, and build rail cars. They consult with companies, or they did, most notably Edward G. Budd Company.

Funny thing is all you said pretty much supports my argument: Amtrak CAN do stuff, but they often find others to do it when the others have the resources, expertise, and experience that make it worthwhile to do so.

For example, the national chains who have that expertise with regard to serving dining customers, targeting market segments with what they want to eat, and plotting strategies of message.

Advertise me with the comfort and lack of stress, not the presence of American over-marketing, something that is generally lacking from Amtrak trains.

This is something a few on these forums don't seem to fully recognize: Amtrak ISN'T selling to just you or just people who share the perspectives of those here. In fact, GML, your perspectives are particularly divergent from the majority in the country: If Amtrak fashioned its advertising to you, perhaps running advertisements with jackbooted soldiers confiscating peoples' cars, it wouldn't be particularly effective with the general public.

Amtrak needs to do a better job tapping new markets. The current group of rail fans isn't going to be around forever, and I don't think "take us because you can't afford the price of gas" (or take us to help overthrow the evil automobile) is the best marketing strategy moving forward... but those are about the only messages I ever see hitting the general population.

What message do you want to send college kids graduating right now? Hipper dining services would, I think, go a surprisingly long way toward advertising Amtrak in general to these folks, and these national chains know how to craft that message.

 

[Ispolkom]

Amtrak isn't in the mass production business, but they do engineer, design, and build rail cars. They consult with companies, or they did, most notably Edward G. Budd Company.

Funny thing is all you said pretty much supports my argument: Amtrak CAN do stuff, but they often find others to do it when the others have the resources, expertise, and experience that make it worthwhile to do so.

For example, the national chains who have that expertise with regard to serving dining customers, targeting market segments with what they want to eat, and plotting strategies of message.

Advertise me with the comfort and lack of stress, not the presence of American over-marketing, something that is generally lacking from Amtrak trains.

This is something a few on these forums don't seem to fully recognize: Amtrak ISN'T selling to just you or just people who share the perspectives of those here. In fact, GML, your perspectives are particularly divergent from the majority in the country: If Amtrak fashioned its advertising to you, perhaps running advertisements with jackbooted soldiers confiscating peoples' cars, it wouldn't be particularly effective with the general public.

Amtrak needs to do a better job tapping new markets. The current group of rail fans isn't going to be around forever, and I don't think "take us because you can't afford the price of gas" (or take us to help overthrow the evil automobile) is the best marketing strategy moving forward... but those are about the only messages I ever see hitting the general population.

What message do you want to send college kids graduating right now? Hipper dining services would, I think, go a surprisingly long way toward advertising Amtrak in general to these folks, and these national chains know how to craft that message.

I've been reading this exchange with increasing amusement. realizing much against my better nature that I was starting to, well, agree with volkris.

It's not something I'm entirely comfortable with, but on the other hand I can rest assured that no national restaurant chain would want to take on a penny-ante business like Amtrak dining cars. How many are we talking about anyway?

What would I like Amtrak to be like? I'd like the lounge car attendant to go through 18 separate steps to make my Tom Collins. I'll grant you that it ain't gonna happen, but a boy can dream. (Hmm, do I have a lemon in the fridge? I feel like a 20th Century cocktail.)

Given that my fantasies aren't going to fulfilled, I think Amtrak should be in the business of providing transportation, and that seems to be enough to take up their talents. The more they can pawn off on others, the better. It is pretty damning that Aramark has done so much to improve diner car food, giving Aramark's generally poor reputation as a caterer.

Not that this in the end really matters to me. As long as I can get a steak and a baked potato, and the quality of their half bottles of wine holds up, I'm a satisfied sleeper passenger. I'd like things better in the dining car, and I'm happy that they are improving (I recommend the crab cakes), but it's not a deal-breaker for me, the way security theater at airports was. I travel by rail for my own (mostly aesthetic) reasons.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak isn't in the mass production business, but they do engineer, design, and build rail cars. They consult with companies, or they did, most notably Edward G. Budd Company.

Funny thing is all you said pretty much supports my argument: Amtrak CAN do stuff, but they often find others to do it when the others have the resources, expertise, and experience that make it worthwhile to do so.

For example, the national chains who have that expertise with regard to serving dining customers, targeting market segments with what they want to eat, and plotting strategies of message.

Advertise me with the comfort and lack of stress, not the presence of American over-marketing, something that is generally lacking from Amtrak trains.

This is something a few on these forums don't seem to fully recognize: Amtrak ISN'T selling to just you or just people who share the perspectives of those here. In fact, GML, your perspectives are particularly divergent from the majority in the country: If Amtrak fashioned its advertising to you, perhaps running advertisements with jackbooted soldiers confiscating peoples' cars, it wouldn't be particularly effective with the general public.

Amtrak needs to do a better job tapping new markets. The current group of rail fans isn't going to be around forever, and I don't think "take us because you can't afford the price of gas" (or take us to help overthrow the evil automobile) is the best marketing strategy moving forward... but those are about the only messages I ever see hitting the general population.

What message do you want to send college kids graduating right now? Hipper dining services would, I think, go a surprisingly long way toward advertising Amtrak in general to these folks, and these national chains know how to craft that message.

First of all, I want to let out there that I HATE people like you. I hate people like you with a passion I can not begin to put into words. You sicken me, physically. You take my arguments for a variety of societal changes and then, with the kind of childish illogic depicted by Amelia Bedelia, use it to thrust words and concepts into my mouth, such as:

If Amtrak fashioned its advertising to you, perhaps running advertisements with jackbooted soldiers confiscating peoples' cars, it wouldn't be particularly effective with the general public.

I mean, I don't agree with your position at all, but I can't imagine it being so indefensible as to you needing to resort to such tactics to counter mine! I do not advocate the kind of world depicted in 1984. Indeed, I wish I was born about a hundred years ago because, frankly, I wouldn't have to see the U.S. Government and its Constitution becoming a poster child for the second law of thermodynamics!

Now that I have pointed out the fallacy in your mechanism for countering my arguement, let me counter what you were actually saying:

In fact, Amtrak should be advertising to people like me. People with time on their hands, people who don't mind spending 3 days going NYC-LAX when it can be done in 6 hours. People who want to relax and enjoy life on a pace they set, and to hell with what other people want. Traditional train transportation has few audiences that are even interested in utilizing something with its parameters. LD trains, particularly the western LD trains, have a limited market in their current format. Amtrak meets that market properly.

 

[volkris]

It's not something I'm entirely comfortable with, but on the other hand I can rest assured that no national restaurant chain would want to take on a penny-ante business like Amtrak dining cars. How many are we talking about anyway?

And, you know, I'm perfectly willing to accept such an answer. If the national chains pull their levers, crunch their numbers, and decide that they wouldn't be successful partnering with Amtrak, then that's perfectly reasonable. Amtrak's business model is such a ball of glue, with its constant reliance on political state and other irrationalities, that I wouldn't be surprised if national chains were leery of involvement even if a small profit was projected.

That reflects both problems that Amtrak has inflicted on itself (existing contracts, past marketing, internal mindsets) and problems that have been inflicted on it (political maneuvering). Sometimes businesses have actually used this sort of partnership as an opportunity to work on their internal problems: if rough edges CAN be evened out, a mutually beneficial partnership with an external entity can provide good incentive to get to work.

At the same time, as Aramark's current partnership, Subway's attempt at providing service, and ARR's experience all seem to suggest, there is reason to believe such partnerships can forged, and that's not even getting into the various non-food service benefits that Amtrak might realize.

A few people in this thread have expressed outright hostility at the idea and (I suspect) change itself. I think that's a really poor way to go about discussing the path to success of an organization we all want to succeed.

 

[Neil_M]

You know nothing about how to sell these trains. They aren't tourist traps on wheels, they are functional transportation devices, transporting people from point A to point B. Advertise me with the comfort and lack of stress, not the presence of American over-marketing, something that is generally lacking from Amtrak trains. And they are better off for it.

So why does it matter where the passengers come from? Tourist or local, why should it matter?

Selling the western LD trains as mere means of A to B transportation is a none starter, especially from end to end, so why not use the leisurely journey, potentially decent food and amazing scenery to get people to travel?

 

[Tony]

The Viewliner? Its an Amtrak design, and a damned good one. The fact that MK couldn't assemble them properly is a different story.

Agreed, 110%.

That they can't make money doing this has more to do with the reality that railway food services have never been profitable. Even the famous name trains took baths on their food service.

I like the analogy to Cruise ships. I am sure that their dining rooms don't make an independent profit, nor is anyone expecting them to. Cruise ship meals are included in the passenger's general fare, just like with Amtrak sleepers. However, unlike Amtrak, Cruise ships seem to understand that dining rooms are expenses. Well, except for the "extras" like beer, wine, cocktails, etc, but then again, Amtrak charges extra for those too.

Maybe Amtrak needs to hire come Cruise line food service executive, and have them apply their experience to Amtrak's dining cars. Sorry, but IMHO, such a person would have an applicable and fresh perspective, over say, an executive from a company like amamark who's real specialty is in company and college cafeterias.

Going off on a tangent, wasn't the purpose of dining cars to save passenger railroads time, not money? It was cheaper to simply feed passengers on the moving train, then to stop at stations every 4 hours and wait while passengers got off to eat at local restaurants.

 

[Ispolkom]

Going off on a tangent, wasn't the purpose of dining cars to save passenger railroads time, not money? It was cheaper to simply feed passengers on the moving train, then to stop at stations every 4 hours and wait while passengers got off to eat at local restaurants.

According to "Dining Car to the Pacific" most railroads had to be dragged into furnishing them. As I recall the argument, railroads preferred passengers eating at stations. It was cheaper and easier, and the trains had to stop to take on coal and water. It was the passengers who wanted a more leisurely, higher quality dining experience and the Northern Pacific capitalized on this, using their dining cars as a selling point for their route. The Northern Pacific still maintained a network of lunchrooms at stations, in part to allow dining cars to pick up needed supplies en route.

 

[VentureForth]

The reason I brought up the topic is several fold. First, I heard that the 24-hr dining room was a success - hired more people and had more revenue to pay for them. Don't know why it wasn't ever implemented other than it was tried on the Sunset Limited just at about the time of Katrina...

Another reason I brought it up is because I'm very disappointed every time I hear that after all the sleeping car attendants got their dining car meal, the coach pax were left with ZIP. That just ain't right. Revenue totally out the door. I would speculate that the more who buy a dinner with a credit card or cash looks better on the dining car expense report than serving 100% sleeping car passengers. I'm sure that the LSAs get tipped better, too.

It was mentioned here about Aramark. I could care less who actually provides the food - so long as it is good. What my main concern continues to be is how that food is properly and consistently prepared and delivered. I currently like food and the way it is presented right now - I just cringe when I hear that not everyone has equal opportunity to experience it.

As far as the Union aspect of it goes, it was mentioned that "Who would work 16 hour days..."? I would venture to suggest that there are plenty of folks who would be very willing at 9% unemployment to wait tables at $3 + tips with a guaranteed table count over a 36 hour time frame, especially when provided room, board, and layover.

As for the attempt at using Subway, I think that would be suitable for a medium distance train, where there is a need for a cafe car, but not a diner. I would NEVER expect to see Subway replace the dining car on the Texas Eagle or the Silvers.

When I worked at Walt Disney World, Aramark took over the employee dining program. The level of success was varied across the company but that's because the existing service varied. The Parks has really crappy food service, and the hotels had awesome food for cheap prices. Aramark came in and hit it right about in between. Since I've moved on, I've seen Aramark at other companies and you can tell the level of service they are contracted to provide. I've also had other companies like Sodexho. They can all serve the Queen of England or run a soup line - depends on what you expect them to do. They'll even wear your uniform so that the end user (ie: passengers) will never know that they are getting anything but Amtrak service. Of course, Amtrak better train them in a way to make Amtrak proud...

As there have been discussions about how to increase revenue on the LDs, one of the big answers has been to increase service. I think that premise holds true for dining as well. When you hit a certain level of service, there is a point that your overhead stops climbing as fast as your revenue stream. Make less money per meal, but sell a heckuva lot more meals.

 

[volkris]

Another reason I brought it up is because I'm very disappointed every time I hear that after all the sleeping car attendants got their dining car meal, the coach pax were left with ZIP. That just ain't right. Revenue totally out the door. I would speculate that the more who buy a dinner with a credit card or cash looks better on the dining car expense report than serving 100% sleeping car passengers. I'm sure that the LSAs get tipped better, too.

I'd also reevaluate the services included with a sleeper ticket (gasp! is nothing sacred?).

Why are meals included in all sleeper tickets? Many times I'd rather have had the $5/meal/person back and just brought my own sandwiches. With the meals included, though, the passengers are encouraged to eat whether they're actually hungry or not, and whether they'd prefer their own food or not.

It speaks, I think, to the need for an intermediate level of sleeper service that we occasionally mention here.

 

[AlanB]

It's not something I'm entirely comfortable with, but on the other hand I can rest assured that no national restaurant chain would want to take on a penny-ante business like Amtrak dining cars. How many are we talking about anyway?

And, you know, I'm perfectly willing to accept such an answer. If the national chains pull their levers, crunch their numbers, and decide that they wouldn't be successful partnering with Amtrak, then that's perfectly reasonable. Amtrak's business model is such a ball of glue, with its constant reliance on political state and other irrationalities, that I wouldn't be surprised if national chains were leery of involvement even if a small profit was projected.

In addition to the above problem being touched upon, I think that you're missing/overlooking one other important thing. You've mentioned many times that these various chains have figured out how to cater to their customers; and you're right, they have. I wouldn't argue that at all. They've each established their plans on their market and catered to it.

The problem is that they all focus on one market, be it the market that wants 13 pieces of flair or the market that wants cheap, quick food like McDonalds. Amtrak on the other hand has to cater to all of the possible markets out there. You've got people who would love to see 13 pieces of flair, you've got people who miss and lament for the days of old where you dressed up or at least saw everything cooked fresh onboard, you've got people that want McD's and right across the entire spectrum.

Now of course the McD customer could probably be better satisfied by the cafe car. rather than the dining car. But the problem still remains of trying to cater to all those differing markets within the dining car. That's an almost impossible task IMHO, as there is no way to be everything to everyone, even if you had the space and the staff to do it. And my worry would be that bringing in one of the entities that you've mentioned might settle on trying to hit one market, probably the one that they are most familiar with, and neglect the other markets.

Personally, while I'd still like to see the staffing come up a bit more than it has already done so, I think that Amtrak has gone in the right direction in the past year or so. They've rolled out a new menu for Acela, based upon input from top chefs, that has resulted in decent food that is a major improvement over what had been there 3 years ago when we were getting a sandwich from the commissary thrown into a fancy basket with a bag of chips. Then they turned to the dining cars and in addition to changing the caterer and getting a better deal with Aramark than they had with Gate, once again put those top chefs to work to come up with a menu that not only travels well and reheats well, but actually tastes pretty darn good.

I'm not sure that with the complexities of doing all of this while traveling in a rail car, that one of the national chains could have done any better, without risking leaving behind those who don't like the market being targeted.

 

[AlanB]

Another reason I brought it up is because I'm very disappointed every time I hear that after all the sleeping car attendants got their dining car meal, the coach pax were left with ZIP. That just ain't right. Revenue totally out the door. I would speculate that the more who buy a dinner with a credit card or cash looks better on the dining car expense report than serving 100% sleeping car passengers. I'm sure that the LSAs get tipped better, too.

I'd also reevaluate the services included with a sleeper ticket (gasp! is nothing sacred?).

Why are meals included in all sleeper tickets? Many times I'd rather have had the $5/meal/person back and just brought my own sandwiches. With the meals included, though, the passengers are encouraged to eat whether they're actually hungry or not, and whether they'd prefer their own food or not.

It speaks, I think, to the need for an intermediate level of sleeper service that we occasionally mention here.

Let's first get the fleet replaced, then if there's enough money left over we can start talking about a new type of sleeping car that provides less.

 

[AlanB]

Finally I want to take a minute here and remind everyone that this is supposed to be a friendly place to come and discuss our favorite hobby. Some of the most recent posts have come very close to crossing the line, and a few actually have. I've even edited a few of them already.

I'm not sugesting that people can't disagree and have different view points. But please keep those view points civil and polite!

 

[Tony]

When I worked at Walt Disney World, Aramark took over the employee dining program. The level of success was varied across the company but that's because the existing service varied. The Parks has really crappy food service, and the hotels had awesome food for cheap prices. Aramark came in and hit it right about in between. Since I've moved on, I've seen Aramark at other companies and you can tell the level of service they are contracted to provide. I've also had other companies like Sodexho. They can all serve the Queen of England or run a soup line - depends on what you expect them to do. They'll even wear your uniform so that the end user (ie: passengers) will never know that they are getting anything but Amtrak service. Of course, Amtrak better train them in a way to make Amtrak proud...

Sticking with Aramark, again I think the issue is just how much experience they have, as a food service company, with running a restaurant/dining room/cafeteria that is constantly moving? Yea, they might be able to eventually learn the basics, but I would rather Amtrak not hire a company that has to learn from scratch.

Aramark does have the menu variety experience range to deal with serving the Queen of England, and with serving soup lines. However, they don't have the experience with dealing with with a moving food service, where one has to deal with a "captured" employee staff, and the additional logistics of supply.

Hay, I was at a Outback a few weeks ago where they ran out of lettuce (how could that happen?), and the kitchen simply sent someone over to the supermarket next door to buy more. One can't do that from a speeding (79MPH ) Amtrak LD train. So, one needs to contract wth a company that has experience in successfully dealing with such situations.

I got bashed the last time I mentioned this. I was on a Silver that was stuck for 24 hours. Does a food service company have the resources to deal with that, by having a plan to get food to that train?

IMHO, the issue is to bring in a food service company that can always do batter than Amtrak does now. If it can't do that, why bother?

 

[sportbiker]

IMHO, the issue is to bring in a food service company that can always do batter than Amtrak does now.

Sometimes adding a bit of margarine can make a batter light, crispy and not greasy. Let's not be bitter over a better butter batter.

 

[haolerider]

When I worked at Walt Disney World, Aramark took over the employee dining program. The level of success was varied across the company but that's because the existing service varied. The Parks has really crappy food service, and the hotels had awesome food for cheap prices. Aramark came in and hit it right about in between. Since I've moved on, I've seen Aramark at other companies and you can tell the level of service they are contracted to provide. I've also had other companies like Sodexho. They can all serve the Queen of England or run a soup line - depends on what you expect them to do. They'll even wear your uniform so that the end user (ie: passengers) will never know that they are getting anything but Amtrak service. Of course, Amtrak better train them in a way to make Amtrak proud...

Sticking with Aramark, again I think the issue is just how much experience they have, as a food service company, with running a restaurant/dining room/cafeteria that is constantly moving? Yea, they might be able to eventually learn the basics, but I would rather Amtrak not hire a company that has to learn from scratch.

Aramark does have the menu variety experience range to deal with serving the Queen of England, and with serving soup lines. However, they don't have the experience with dealing with with a moving food service, where one has to deal with a "captured" employee staff, and the additional logistics of supply.

Hay, I was at a Outback a few weeks ago where they ran out of lettuce (how could that happen?), and the kitchen simply sent someone over to the supermarket next door to buy more. One can't do that from a speeding (79MPH ) Amtrak LD train. So, one needs to contract wth a company that has experience in successfully dealing with such situations.

I got bashed the last time I mentioned this. I was on a Silver that was stuck for 24 hours. Does a food service company have the resources to deal with that, by having a plan to get food to that train?

IMHO, the issue is to bring in a food service company that can always do batter than Amtrak does now. If it can't do that, why bother?

This is a very interesting discussion - to a point - however the union is not going to let this happen. They have too much invested in their dues and while I am not an expert on labor relations, I fail to see the opportunity to make this kind of move.

 

[Neil_M]

Hay, I was at a Outback a few weeks ago where they ran out of lettuce (how could that happen?), and the kitchen simply sent someone over to the supermarket next door to buy more. One can't do that from a speeding (79MPH ) Amtrak LD train. So, one needs to contract wth a company that has experience in successfully dealing with such situations.
I got bashed the last time I mentioned this. I was on a Silver that was stuck for 24 hours. Does a food service company have the resources to deal with that, by having a plan to get food to that train?

What is Amtrak's plan now when the train is hours late and food is running out? An emergency helicopter drop of French Toast and Garden Burgers?

Seems what happens if you read the trip reports are true is the local fast food place gets a bulk order.

No doubt the private company would use similar methods.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Another reason I brought it up is because I'm very disappointed every time I hear that after all the sleeping car attendants got their dining car meal, the coach pax were left with ZIP. That just ain't right. Revenue totally out the door. I would speculate that the more who buy a dinner with a credit card or cash looks better on the dining car expense report than serving 100% sleeping car passengers. I'm sure that the LSAs get tipped better, too.

I'd also reevaluate the services included with a sleeper ticket (gasp! is nothing sacred?).

Why are meals included in all sleeper tickets? Many times I'd rather have had the $5/meal/person back and just brought my own sandwiches. With the meals included, though, the passengers are encouraged to eat whether they're actually hungry or not, and whether they'd prefer their own food or not.

It speaks, I think, to the need for an intermediate level of sleeper service that we occasionally mention here.

Let's first get the fleet replaced, then if there's enough money left over we can start talking about a new type of sleeping car that provides less.

maybe have the dining car open longer so more coach pax can get something to eat and give there money to amtrak.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Another reason I brought it up is because I'm very disappointed every time I hear that after all the sleeping car attendants got their dining car meal, the coach pax were left with ZIP. That just ain't right. Revenue totally out the door. I would speculate that the more who buy a dinner with a credit card or cash looks better on the dining car expense report than serving 100% sleeping car passengers. I'm sure that the LSAs get tipped better, too.

I'd also reevaluate the services included with a sleeper ticket (gasp! is nothing sacred?).

Why are meals included in all sleeper tickets? Many times I'd rather have had the $5/meal/person back and just brought my own sandwiches. With the meals included, though, the passengers are encouraged to eat whether they're actually hungry or not, and whether they'd prefer their own food or not.

It speaks, I think, to the need for an intermediate level of sleeper service that we occasionally mention here.

Let's first get the fleet replaced, then if there's enough money left over we can start talking about a new type of sleeping car that provides less.

All hail the slumbercoach!

 

[sunchaser]

Another reason I brought it up is because I'm very disappointed every time I hear that after all the sleeping car attendants got their dining car meal, the coach pax were left with ZIP. That just ain't right. Revenue totally out the door. I would speculate that the more who buy a dinner with a credit card or cash looks better on the dining car expense report than serving 100% sleeping car passengers. I'm sure that the LSAs get tipped better, too.

I'd also reevaluate the services included with a sleeper ticket (gasp! is nothing sacred?).

Why are meals included in all sleeper tickets? Many times I'd rather have had the $5/meal/person back and just brought my own sandwiches. With the meals included, though, the passengers are encouraged to eat whether they're actually hungry or not, and whether they'd prefer their own food or not.

It speaks, I think, to the need for an intermediate level of sleeper service that we occasionally mention here.

Let's first get the fleet replaced, then if there's enough money left over we can start talking about a new type of sleeping car that provides less.

All hail the slumbercoach!

The slumbercoach was discussed on another thread not too long ago.

I don't see any reason that there shouldn't be an opt out on meals w/sleepers, other than they may be trying to emulate cruises by being all inclusive.

I noticed last Monday the westbound CZ was delayed 10 hours in Denver from a snowstorm. I'm not sure if they were in Denver proper, or on the track somewhere in between. There should be some way of carrying extra food for situations like that & to keep from those people in sleepers gobbling down all the food & leavinng the coach customers hanging.

Maybe add it after the first day, that way they would not have to change storage space around in the kitchen.

 

[volkris]

Let's first get the fleet replaced, then if there's enough money left over we can start talking about a new type of sleeping car that provides less.

I don't see any reason that there shouldn't be an opt out on meals w/sleepers, other than they may be trying to emulate cruises by being all inclusive.

Right. Other than a few bookkeeping issues (that shouldn't be TOO hairy), is it that much of an expense to create a slightly cheaper, non-first class sleeper option? It would tend to save the food for those who are actually hungry. Maybe the updated computer system will make adding such an option easier.

Anyway, here's a new question: is there a ballpark estimate on the cost of pulling a diner, not counting on-diner labor or the cost of the car itself? As in, purely hypothetically because yes, there are plenty of other considerations, if a company wanted to tack it's own dining car to the end of a train, how much would it have to clear in order to recoup the cost of pulling and powering the thing? Again, yes, this is only the start of the costs, but I'm curious as to where it starts.

 

[jmbgeg]

Another reason I brought it up is because I'm very disappointed every time I hear that after all the sleeping car attendants got their dining car meal, the coach pax were left with ZIP. That just ain't right. Revenue totally out the door. I would speculate that the more who buy a dinner with a credit card or cash looks better on the dining car expense report than serving 100% sleeping car passengers. I'm sure that the LSAs get tipped better, too.

I'd also reevaluate the services included with a sleeper ticket (gasp! is nothing sacred?).

Why are meals included in all sleeper tickets? Many times I'd rather have had the $5/meal/person back and just brought my own sandwiches. With the meals included, though, the passengers are encouraged to eat whether they're actually hungry or not, and whether they'd prefer their own food or not.

It speaks, I think, to the need for an intermediate level of sleeper service that we occasionally mention here.

Let's first get the fleet replaced, then if there's enough money left over we can start talking about a new type of sleeping car that provides less.

All hail the slumbercoach!

The slumbercoach was discussed on another thread not too long ago.

I don't see any reason that there shouldn't be an opt out on meals w/sleepers, other than they may be trying to emulate cruises by being all inclusive.

I noticed last Monday the westbound CZ was delayed 10 hours in Denver from a snowstorm. I'm not sure if they were in Denver proper, or on the track somewhere in between. There should be some way of carrying extra food for situations like that & to keep from those people in sleepers gobbling down all the food & leavinng the coach customers hanging.

Maybe add it after the first day, that way they would not have to change storage space around in the kitchen.

Since sleeper passengers on long distance trains get first shot at dinner reservations, with coach passengers given reservation opportunities on a space available basis (which it not always is), why not allow sleeper passengers to use thir dinner allowance in the lounge car for food (attendents would hand out exchange vouchers with a stated dollar value when they were going sleeper to sleeper taking reservations and a passenger declines a reservation). That would free up more reservation space for coach passengers. Not sure I would take that option but some would.

 

[AlanB]

maybe have the dining car open longer so more coach pax can get something to eat and give there money to amtrak.

The dining car is already open until 9:00 PM for the last seating, I'm not sure that staying open much later will increase business all that much. Most people don't want to eat dinner that late. Not to mention the horrible toll it would take on the crew to extend their day by a few more hours.

That said I do agree with you that Amtrak needs to get more coach passengers back into the diner. But I think that the correct way to do that is to increase staffing, so that more people can be served at one time. Seating 32 people in one hour and a half when the Superliner diners used to serve 60 or more in that same time period is the problem. The only way to fix that problem is to increase staffing levels as the trains fill up.

 

[sunchaser]

Another reason I brought it up is because I'm very disappointed every time I hear that after all the sleeping car attendants got their dining car meal, the coach pax were left with ZIP. That just ain't right. Revenue totally out the door. I would speculate that the more who buy a dinner with a credit card or cash looks better on the dining car expense report than serving 100% sleeping car passengers. I'm sure that the LSAs get tipped better, too.

I'd also reevaluate the services included with a sleeper ticket (gasp! is nothing sacred?).

Why are meals included in all sleeper tickets? Many times I'd rather have had the $5/meal/person back and just brought my own sandwiches. With the meals included, though, the passengers are encouraged to eat whether they're actually hungry or not, and whether they'd prefer their own food or not.

It speaks, I think, to the need for an intermediate level of sleeper service that we occasionally mention here.

Let's first get the fleet replaced, then if there's enough money left over we can start talking about a new type of sleeping car that provides less.

All hail the slumbercoach!

The slumbercoach was discussed on another thread not too long ago.

I don't see any reason that there shouldn't be an opt out on meals w/sleepers, other than they may be trying to emulate cruises by being all inclusive.

I noticed last Monday the westbound CZ was delayed 10 hours in Denver from a snowstorm. I'm not sure if they were in Denver proper, or on the track somewhere in between. There should be some way of carrying extra food for situations like that & to keep from those people in sleepers gobbling down all the food & leavinng the coach customers hanging.

Maybe add it after the first day, that way they would not have to change storage space around in the kitchen.

Since sleeper passengers on long distance trains get first shot at dinner reservations, with coach passengers given reservation opportunities on a space available basis (which it not always is), why not allow sleeper passengers to use thir dinner allowance in the lounge car for food (attendents would hand out exchange vouchers with a stated dollar value when they were going sleeper to sleeper taking reservations and a passenger declines a reservation). That would free up more reservation space for coach passengers. Not sure I would take that option but some would.

Great idea. But would that solve the issue of running out of food? I've been watching that subject for a while, & even reading other trip reports elsewhere. Seems to be a recurring issue, but usually because a train is late. Which seems to be pretty regular even now, just more like 1-3 hours.

I think whatever changes they make for food provided, they should also consider the 'just in case' factor.

I would expect, whether I ride coach or a in a sleeper, edible food should be available. I don't mean fast food unless there is no other way to do it.

 

[AlanB]

Let's first get the fleet replaced, then if there's enough money left over we can start talking about a new type of sleeping car that provides less.

I don't see any reason that there shouldn't be an opt out on meals w/sleepers, other than they may be trying to emulate cruises by being all inclusive.

Right. Other than a few bookkeeping issues (that shouldn't be TOO hairy), is it that much of an expense to create a slightly cheaper, non-first class sleeper option? It would tend to save the food for those who are actually hungry. Maybe the updated computer system will make adding such an option easier.

The current problem is that ARROW can't handle having some sleepers that include meals, while others don't. It would also be quite confusing to the dining car staff, and I suspect that even passenger would have a hard time understanding things. Yes, many would realize that they booked a room that did not include meals, but others would not notice that. I can see big arguements coming in the diner if that were the case.

The best answer IMHO remains that Amtrak needs a new type of sleeper car, like say a slumbercoach or some type of business class car with seats that almost fully recline. This class would not include meals and it would be easy to keep things straight.