Covid Mask Mandate for Transportation

[IndyLions]

So are you saying you have no examples of pro-maskers shooting anyone or are you saying you refuse to believe anyone has been shot by anti-maskers?

No - I'm just saying that if you watch the typical left wing news organizations - you'll learn about all kind of right-wing crazies.

If you watch the typical right wing news organizations - you'll learn about all kinds of left-wing crazies.

Anyone who thinks there are only crazies on the left or the right isn't trying very hard to get their news from a variety of sources.

 

[Tlcooper44]

No - I'm just saying that if you watch the typical left wing news organizations - you'll learn about all kind of right-wing crazies.

If you watch the typical right wing news organizations - you'll learn about all kinds of left-wing crazies.

Anyone who thinks there are only crazies on the left or the right isn't trying very hard to get their news from a variety of sources.

Agreed on this one.
This is a big country, and grouping a large sum of people together and painting them in one light is utterly unhelpful. All humans are complex, and therefore have complex reasons for doing just about anything.

We all had different experiences with the pandemic, and it effected each of us differently. We are all going to have different opinions on who and what to trust, especially since some of the traditionally trustworthy agencies and individuals have proven themselves untrustworthy at various points in the last year.

I see no problem wearing masks on planes and trains for now. While I don't think its unreasonable to re-evaluate their effectiveness at this point in the pandemic, it is also not unreasonable to ask us to continue using them.

 

[JayPea]

Agreed on this one.
This is a big country, and grouping a large sum of people together and painting them in one light is utterly unhelpful. All humans are complex, and therefore have complex reasons for doing just about anything.

We all had different experiences with the pandemic, and it effected each of us differently. We are all going to have different opinions on who and what to trust, especially since some of the traditionally trustworthy agencies and individuals have proven themselves untrustworthy at various points in the last year.

I see no problem wearing masks on planes and trains for now. While I don't think its unreasonable to re-evaluate their effectiveness at this point in the pandemic, it is also not unreasonable to ask us to continue using them.

You make entirely too much sense. I am in total agreement. From day 1 of the pandemic, I didn't, and still don't, see what good calling people whose opinions differ all sorts of names. Call those who don't get vaccinated or wear masks covidiots? If I were already antagonistic about the vaccine or the mask, calling me insulting names is sure going to make me change my mind. (For the record, I'm fully vaccinated and wear a mask when a business requires me to do do). And call me a sheeple for wearing a mask?? Sure. I'll rip that thing right off.

I get the frustration especially on the part of vaccinated folks and those who wear masks toward those who aren't and don't but insulting such folks does no good at all.

 

[flitcraft]

One problem with ending mask mandates is that there are plenty of immunocompromised folks out there who are still susceptible to infection, not to mention kids who can't get vaccinated yet. I wish I could trust non-vaccinated people to voluntarily mask up to protect those who can't protect themselves, but it appears that too many of them will not mask regardless. We took our granddaughter to a bouncy-castle indoor playground which advertised that all of their staff was fully vaccinated. Yet, during the day there, one of the staff admitted to me that she wasn't really vaccinated, but that she wasn't particularly worried about COVID herself and that she just told her employer that she was vaccinated to keep her job. We left once I knew that, but it made me realize that trusting people to be honest about their status is probably unrealistic, unfortunately.

 

[Barb Stout]

That explanation sounds logical to me and provides some confidence that masks can help. Wearing a mask was never the issue on this end. It was whether or not they offered the needed protection. In my wife's hospital (shes a nurse) 50 nurses and staff contracted Covid and all wore masks. When I look at that situation, I say the jury is still out on this end. As for Amtrak, if they want masks, I will ride with one.

There was speculation that some of these cases were from staff eating in the lunchroom/lounge. Can't eat with a mask and hard to ask people to work 12 hours without eating.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

There was speculation that some of these cases were from staff eating in the lunchroom/lounge. Can't eat with a mask and hard to ask people to work 12 hours without eating.

That’s what I never understood about restaurants being open with indoor seating. Does the virus say “oh no they are eating, we don’t want to bother them, let’s come back later”

 

[Exvalley]

That’s what I never understood about restaurants being open with indoor seating. Does the virus say “oh no they are eating, we don’t want to bother them, let’s come back later”

Much to my surprise, the chief epidemiologist in my state said that he could count the number of Covid infections transmitted to diners in restaurants on one hand. We are a small state but that is still pretty shocking.

 

[Barb Stout]

Much to my surprise, the chief epidemiologist in my state said that he could count the number of Covid infections transmitted to diners in restaurants on one hand. We are a small state but that is still pretty shocking.

What is your state? In mine, the state instituted what was called a "rapid response" which entailed Covid19 testing of all the employees at businesses when there was a positive Covid19 case. For awhile most of those rapid responses were restaurants.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

No - I'm just saying that if you watch the typical left wing news organizations - you'll learn about all kind of right-wing crazies. If you watch the typical right wing news organizations - you'll learn about all kinds of left-wing crazies. Anyone who thinks there are only crazies on the left or the right isn't trying very hard to get their news from a variety of sources.

To me there are different kinds of crazy and different levels of impact but a devout centrist is inclined to see all sides as equally crazy or sane no matter what they do. Some may think that splitting the difference brings us closer to the truth but it can also make us a slave to the Overton window. Instead of swaying my opinion with superior sources and subject comprehension you keep attacking a straw man argument about media bias and accountability.

 

[pennyk]

MODERATOR NOTE: A few posts were removed because they were either too political, off topic, unfriendly, etc.

Please try to keep your comments on the topic of the Amtrak Mask Mandate (and avoid partisan political statements). Thank you for your cooperation.

Thank you to those who filed reports. Staff appreciates the input since we are unable to read every post.

 

[Qapla]

Thank You Penny.

The work of the Moderators is much appreciated

 

[Exvalley]

What is your state? In mine, the state instituted what was called a "rapid response" which entailed Covid19 testing of all the employees at businesses when there was a positive Covid19 case. For awhile most of those rapid responses were restaurants.

There was quite a bit of transmission among kitchen staff, but nearly no transmission among diners.

 

[nuger93]

This is disappointing. While I fully understand the efficacy of mask wearing I hate to do it because I have yet to figure how to wear one without steaming up my glasses, which is one reason I don't put myself into situations where I need to wear one for any length of time. But, there's still roomettes, when available.

I figured out, the trick was to get ones with longer metal pieces in the nose than you get in store bought ones (many of mine are etsy based masks now because of this, then I popped the stitch, put in my legit charcoal filter like you'd find inside an N-95 filter, and then sew it back up. Now that the metals wearing out, they are back to fogging.

 

[Danib62]

N95 respirators don’t use charcoal filters, they typically use melt-blown polypropylene that’s electrostaticly charged.

 

[Brian Battuello]

I had the glasses steaming problem bigtime until someone taught me how to fit the metal wire carefully around my nose.

You can also buy anti-steam spray for your lenses, which helps a lot.

 

[neroden]

My position has never been that masks weren’t absolutely necessary during the pandemic. They were our best defense when people were unable to social distance and prior to the wide rollout of the vaccines. Masks are still critical in many parts of the world.

But in late June 2021 in the US, having fully vaccinated, non-immunocompromised adults wearing masks does nothing statistically relevant towards ending the pandemic sooner.

The 30-40% of Americans who haven’t been vaccinated are the statistical elephant in the room. At best - the vaccinated wearing masks is round-off error as far as increased risk goes.

This is FALSE, and it's dangerous thinking. And it's false BECAUSE of the large number of unvaccinated people.

My mother was a professor of statistics. Let me try to explain it to you.

We now have data from Israel which shows that two doses of Pfizer vaccine (plus two weeks) is only *64% effective* at preventing *infection which can lead to transmission* with Delta Variant (now dominant in Israel).

The vaccine is far, far more effective at preventing serious disease, upwards of 93%. Nearly all of these cases where vaccinated people get infected are mild or asymptomatic.... but they can still infect others.

So if vaccinated people are wandering around without masks, then *about 1/3 of them* are *catching the disease and transmitting it to others*. They themselves will probably not get sick -- but they are very likely to infect an unvaccinated person, and quite likely put that unvaccinated person in the hospital.

Nobody has ever stopped an epidemic with vaccines alone. You have to also break the chain of transmission, and that means *wear your damn mask*.

You might be infected, infecting other people, and having no symptoms. **Vaccinated people can be carriers** and frequently are, according to the latest Israeli data.

Once enough people (>90% of people, they think, at this point) are vaccinated, transmission is cut down enough that vaccinated carriers start being unlikely to encounter unvaccinated people and unlikely to encounter other susceptible vaccinated people who might become carriers and then encounter unvaccinated people. But we are nowhere near that high a vaccination level.

Israel's vaccinated more of its population with Pfizer than any other country. They just reinstituted indoor mask mandates because of the evidence.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israe...date-next-week-as-covid-19-cases-keep-rising/

 

[Brian Battuello]

Thanks again for that. Amazing to what extent people will go to try to justify not wearing masks. Just walk by a playground and look at dozens of unvaccinated children. And despite being vaccinated, I have a 36% chance of catching it and passing it on to them, even if I feel fine. Anyone that chooses not to wear a mask is basically guilty of child abuse.

As of July 1, over 4 million children have tested positive for COVID-19 since the onset of the pandemic, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics.

If your TV tells you that you have the right to put children into a hospital, stick a tube down their throat, and possibly die, you might want to get your news from another source.

 

[PVD]

 

[IndyLions]

This is FALSE, and it's dangerous thinking. And it's false BECAUSE of the large number of unvaccinated people.

My mother was a professor of statistics. Let me try to explain it to you.

We now have data from Israel which shows that two doses of Pfizer vaccine (plus two weeks) is only *64% effective* at preventing *infection which can lead to transmission* with Delta Variant (now dominant in Israel).

The vaccine is far, far more effective at preventing serious disease, upwards of 93%. Nearly all of these cases where vaccinated people get infected are mild or asymptomatic.... but they can still infect others.

So if vaccinated people are wandering around without masks, then *about 1/3 of them* are *catching the disease and transmitting it to others*. They themselves will probably not get sick -- but they are very likely to infect an unvaccinated person, and quite likely put that unvaccinated person in the hospital.

Nobody has ever stopped an epidemic with vaccines alone. You have to also break the chain of transmission, and that means *wear your damn mask*.

You might be infected, infecting other people, and having no symptoms. **Vaccinated people can be carriers** and frequently are, according to the latest Israeli data.

Once enough people (>90% of people, they think, at this point) are vaccinated, transmission is cut down enough that vaccinated carriers start being unlikely to encounter unvaccinated people and unlikely to encounter other susceptible vaccinated people who might become carriers and then encounter unvaccinated people. But we are nowhere near that high a vaccination level.

Israel's vaccinated more of its population with Pfizer than any other country. They just reinstituted indoor mask mandates because of the evidence.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israe...date-next-week-as-covid-19-cases-keep-rising/

You don’t need to be condescending - that approach doesn’t convince anyone of anything. I believe you are an intelligent person - but I am no dummy.

I understand how statistics work - I could tell you where I went to college and my stats grade - but that would be pretentious which is just as bad as condescension.

The problem with Covid statistics is that everyone has them - and none of them agree. Ten years after the pandemic we’ll know for sure which ones were right. Until then, not so much.

So your beef is probably more with those making the rules in this country than with me. If you can convince them to reinstate the mandates - I’ll go along just as I have this entire pandemic.

 

[Tlcooper44]

You don’t need to be condescending - that approach doesn’t convince anyone of anything. I believe you are an intelligent person - but I am no dummy.

I understand how statistics work - I could tell you where I went to college and my stats grade - but that would be pretentious which is just as bad as condescension.

The problem with Covid statistics is that everyone has them - and none of them agree. Ten years after the pandemic we’ll know for sure which ones were right. Until then, not so much.

So your beef is probably more with those making the rules in this country than with me. If you can convince them to reinstate the mandates - I’ll go along just as I have this entire pandemic.

Im afraid I’m in agreement with this.
There are still far too many unknowns about how any of this works to say anything with direct condescension.

 

[IndyLions]

…Anyone that chooses not to wear a mask is basically guilty of child abuse….

Thats just silly rhetoric - and just like condescension - does nothing to convince people of anything. Definitely not “How to win friends and influence people”. People who already agree with you will love it though!

 

[Ryan]

You don’t need to be condescending - that approach doesn’t convince anyone of anything. I believe you are an intelligent person - but I am no dummy.

I understand how statistics work - I could tell you where I went to college and my stats grade - but that would be pretentious which is just as bad as condescension.

The problem with Covid statistics is that everyone has them - and none of them agree. Ten years after the pandemic we’ll know for sure which ones were right. Until then, not so much.

So your beef is probably more with those making the rules in this country than with me. If you can convince them to reinstate the mandates - I’ll go along just as I have this entire pandemic.

By all means then…. Present us with your evidence that the statistics that he posted are incorrect.

Even if I were to accept your contention that “we just can’t possibly know which facts are correct”, then the prudent course of action is to just wear the damn mask. If it turns out that it didn’t help much, nothing of value is lost. Your “I’ll wear the mask only when forced to” is why we have 600,000 dead bodies at this point.

You can choose to not be convinced, but you can also choose not to act like a fool.

 

[neroden]

I mean, hell, maybe the vaccine is more effective at preventing transmission than that one Israeli study. But even if it's 95% effective, that's still 5% of vaccinated people who might be carriers who are transmitting -- 1 out of 20! Why not wear a mask in public and so make sure you *aren't* transmitting? It's the harmless, safe, no-real-loss option.

 

[IndyLions]

You can choose to not be convinced, but you can also choose not to act like a fool.

OK - now I know why Bill Maher (of all people) recently said - “that’s why people hate liberals”.

I haven’t acted like a fool. I have worn a mask everywhere mandated from day one. I got vaccinated at the earliest possible time allowed for my age group. I have argued (overzealously at times) with everyone I care about to get vaccinated ASAP.

I just had the audacity to state that I wasn’t convinced that masking up vaccinated people is going to end the pandemic any sooner - since such a large percentage of Americans have made it clear they’re not getting vaccinated anytime soon.

In regards to the “where’s your statistics” argument - I have stated plainly that I am not going to get into a Covid statistics war - because (in my opinion) it’s pointless.

And anyone who reads my posts here would know - I am far from a conservative. I am about as middle of the road as they come. If anything, four years of Trump has caused me to currently lean pretty far left.

If you can’t put forth an argument other than - “we’re right and you’re stupid - and here’s our statistics to prove it” - then we’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[MARC Rider]

This is FALSE, and it's dangerous thinking. And it's false BECAUSE of the large number of unvaccinated people.

My mother was a professor of statistics. Let me try to explain it to you.

We now have data from Israel which shows that two doses of Pfizer vaccine (plus two weeks) is only *64% effective* at preventing *infection which can lead to transmission* with Delta Variant (now dominant in Israel).

The vaccine is far, far more effective at preventing serious disease, upwards of 93%. Nearly all of these cases where vaccinated people get infected are mild or asymptomatic.... but they can still infect others.

So if vaccinated people are wandering around without masks, then *about 1/3 of them* are *catching the disease and transmitting it to others*. They themselves will probably not get sick -- but they are very likely to infect an unvaccinated person, and quite likely put that unvaccinated person in the hospital.

Nobody has ever stopped an epidemic with vaccines alone. You have to also break the chain of transmission, and that means *wear your damn mask*.

You might be infected, infecting other people, and having no symptoms. **Vaccinated people can be carriers** and frequently are, according to the latest Israeli data.

Once enough people (>90% of people, they think, at this point) are vaccinated, transmission is cut down enough that vaccinated carriers start being unlikely to encounter unvaccinated people and unlikely to encounter other susceptible vaccinated people who might become carriers and then encounter unvaccinated people. But we are nowhere near that high a vaccination level.

Israel's vaccinated more of its population with Pfizer than any other country. They just reinstituted indoor mask mandates because of the evidence.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israe...date-next-week-as-covid-19-cases-keep-rising/

While the general gist of neroden's post is absolutely correct, the numerical implication is a bit off.

Assuming these estimates of "vaccine effectiveness" are calculated similar to that of the clinical trials, when they say that the vaccine is "64% effective at preventing infection" that means that the if, say, if the overall infection rate is x, then those who are vaccinated will get infected at a rate of 36% compared to those who aren't vaccinated. Even in hotspots, the total rate of infection among the total population is pretty small, so it's not like you have a 36% chance of being infected even if you're vaccinated and unmasked. If the infection rate is, say, 1% of the total population, then an unmasked vaccinated person's chance of being infected is 1% of 36% (0.01x0.36) or 0.0036, or 0.36%. Thus, even if you're not wearing a mask, your chances of getting infected are fairly low. However, bear in mind that 0.36% of 300 million people is almost 11 million people, so even if everyone was vaccinated, a lot of people could still get infected. Even if people don't get really sick, this gives the virus more chances to mutate to new variants that might be more of a problem.

Now I don't have off the top of my head the experimental and epidemiological data that quantify the beneficial effect of mask wearing, but the one experimental study I did read about aerosols suggested that masks reduce the number of aerosol particles roughly 5-fold. (I.e., wear a mask, emit 1/5th the # of aerosol particles). If the reduction in aerosol particles is linearly related to the reduction in infections, then wearing a mask would reduce the infection rate by 80%. This would be .01 x .036 x .2 or 0.000072 or .0072%. This means that the 11 million people who might get infected from asymptomatic unmasked vaccinated people would be reduced to 2.2 million if these people were all masked. (This is not counting the protective aspect that wearing a mask offers to the mask-wearer which also reduces infection rates.)

While this means you don't have a 36% chance of catching the virus if your vaccinated and unmasked, so there's no need to totally freak out about the Israeli reports, it does mean, as neroden wrote, "vaccinated people can be carriers" at a rate higher than previously thought. Thus, we need to do more to break the chain of transmission. One of the best ways to do that is to wear a mask indoors in crowded places, even if you're vaccinated. I would think that being in an Amtrak train would count as being "indoors in a crowded place," especially now that they're selling all the seats with apparently the train consists are still shorter than usual. I'm not sure what the problem is in having a mask requirement as a tradeoff to allow other activities to be able to go on as normal.

As I've said before, I really don't understand why some people are being obstinate about this. Wearing a mask is no big deal. If we really want to go back to "normal" (whatever that is), wearing a mask is something that just has to be done.