Crescent to be re-routed out of BHM?

[NativeSon5859]

I saw on another website that Amtrak's latest plan is to re-route the Crescent west of Birmingham. All current destinations between BHM and NOL would be dropped. The train would serve the former Gulf Breeze route from BHM to Montgomery, Atmore, and Mobile, and would then pick up the Sunset's old route from Mobile to New Orleans via Biloxi, Gulfport, and Bay St. Louis. The plan to extend the Crescent NOL-SAS has apparently been dropped. The Sunset would keep on operating as is NOL-LAX with no plans to extend it back to Florida.

If...and I say if...this plan goes into effect, it would be great news for people along the Gulf Coast, but not so great news for cities like Hattiesburg and Meridian which have spent millions of dollars to upgrade their terminals. Of course, having stops in Mobile and Biloxi would help boost the ridership of the train south of BHM.

What do you guys think about this proposal? From the sound of it, Amtrak seems to be wanting to make this happen as soon as possible.

 

[had8ley]

I saw on another website that Amtrak's latest plan is to re-route the Crescent west of Birmingham. All current destinations between BHM and NOL would be dropped. The train would serve the former Gulf Breeze route from BHM to Montgomery, Atmore, and Mobile, and would then pick up the Sunset's old route from Mobile to New Orleans via Biloxi, Gulfport, and Bay St. Louis. The plan to extend the Crescent NOL-SAS has apparently been dropped. The Sunset would keep on operating as is NOL-LAX with no plans to extend it back to Florida.
If...and I say if...this plan goes into effect, it would be great news for people along the Gulf Coast, but not so great news for cities like Hattiesburg and Meridian which have spent millions of dollars to upgrade their terminals. Of course, having stops in Mobile and Biloxi would help boost the ridership of the train south of BHM.

What do you guys think about this proposal? From the sound of it, Amtrak seems to be wanting to make this happen as soon as possible.

For as much hype as Amtrak has put into NOT running the Sunset east of New Orleans because of the "no station" flap in Mobile I seriously doubt that they're going to jump up and detour the Crescent via Mobile. One week we have the Crescent turning off at Meridian and going west; now we have just the opposite. I'm going to have to be sitting on the Crescent going along the Gulf Coast to believe this one.

 

[George Harris]

Would you be interested in making an offer on the Brooklyn Bridge? I hear New York is trying to sell it to raise money to rebuild their subway lines.

I would say this reroute is just about as believable. It would add a few hours to the run time, at least 3 and maybe 4. The CSX line along the Gulf Coast is just about at capacity, and then there is the "No Station" issue already mentioned that is amongst "The dog ate my homework" excuses Amtrak is using for not reinstating the Sunset east.

I doubt the "boost ridership" angle. I wouls suspect a lot of the real, as opposed to imaginary, potential ridership is already driving to/from Hattiesburg or Slidell and points along the coast. I think this reroute would probably lose ridership. Remember the "Gulf Breeze"? It did not really do so well in ridership. Thanks to running Montogomery - Birmingham - Atlanta instead of the old West Point Route direct line used by the Crescent, times between Atlanta and Montgomery and points south were hours longer than driving, Greyhound, or the old Crescent times. I think this re-route would lose ridership compared to the current route.

To split (NOT DIVERT) the Crescent at Meridian into a Dallas / Ft. Worth and a New Orleans, or even a New Orleans - Houlston - San Antonio section would make sense, but a Birmingham - Montgomery - Mobile - Gulf Coast reroute does not. Note: The extension New Orleans to Houston -San Antonio would only make sense if a reliable arrival time in New Orleans from the west would be possible.

If it is desired to serve the Gulf Coast, Mobile, and Montgomery, make a SPLIT at Atlanta, not a diversion at Birmingham. I really think that with proper equipment and marketing two trains could be filled north of Atlanta.

 

[AmtrakCrescent20]

For what it's worth, this was originally reported in a "Special Edition" of the URPA newsletter that was published today.

 

[TVRM610]

Interesting... anything is possible! Is it possible that the crescent could run alternate routes on different days? I know its crazy just saying, M W F Sun. run the current Birmingham to NOL route, Tus, Ths, Sat. run the Birmingham to Mobile to NOL route? Might please everyone huh? Again, crazy but just a thought.

It sure would be nice if it was possible to get on the train in Atlanta and get to Orlando. Just thinking... Atlanta to Orlando, sure it would have to be a seperate train from the crescent, but THAT would be great for me. In my dreams I know...

 

[gswager]

Problem is each engineer and maybe conductor has to be well familiar with the track territories as you mentioned above. I think it will not work because it's too costly.

 

[haolerider]

This is not a logical change and would be very difficult to implement based on the history and station building and renovation in Meridian and Hattiesburg specifically. What is supposed to be the upside? We certainly know the down side.

Also, this allegedly came from URPA and Bruce Richardson quotes a supposed secret meeting of Amtrak executives, but he does not identily his source............haven't we been through this process before regarding station closures?

 

[Dakguy201]

The communities that just built a station for Amtrak and are now going to lose service if this plan goes through are really going to howl. I can't say I blame them.

 

[George Harris]

For what it's worth, this was originally reported in a "Special Edition" of the URPA newsletter that was published today.

And I still think it is a dumb idea. I don't have my old schedules at hand, but it is certain to make it significantly slower.

Bham to Mty: 98 miles, 2.5 hours (I know it was 2.0 pre Amtrak, but was about 2.5 in Amtrak.

Mty to Mobile: 175 +/- miles, 4.0 hours (Maybe 3.5 pre Amtrak.)

Mobile to N. O. 145 miles, 4.0 hours (pre Amtrak Pan. The Bird did it in 3.)

This means 10 plus hours. The current route is about 7.5 hours.

Even if they diverted at Atlanta, thereby losing Birmingham, it would still be about 13+ hours Atlanta to New Orleans versus about 12 now. The A&WP-WRA Atlanta to Montgomery was never fast. 4.5 hours was its best, more likely 5 ot 6 now.

Still looks like a bad idea, unless somebody is willing to spend quite a bit to improve line speeds and add sidings.

George

 

[had8ley]

[
Still looks like a bad idea, unless somebody is willing to spend quite a bit to improve line speeds and add sidings.

George

NOW you have my attention. Just who got all the money to extend sidings, upgrade signals and put in several gated crossings? None other than the CSXT who is using all that track, as we read, without paying a nickel to Amtrak for it and Amtrak is no where to be seen between New Orleans and Jacksonville. Might this be another shell game to get some free upgradings George ???

 

[jphjaxfl]

I believe the former mayor of Meridian,MS who has served on one of the Amtrak boards has quite a bit of clout and would not allow service through Meridian to be discontinued. He was one of the strong proponants of the Crescent Star that would have split from the Crescent at Meridian for a run over the former Y&MV/L&A or Y&MV/T&P to Dallas. Amtrak had already started to set up a crew base in Meridian in anticipation to this. I think the Crescent Star would be closer to reality than re-routing the Crescent from Birmingham to New Orleans since KCS has done upgrades on the Meridian-Shreveport line. Also the Senator from MS has been a strong proponent of Amtrak would likely have something to say. Another Senator from AL has been very much against Amtrak. Let's face it Amtrak's routings are very political and any change would receive definite scrutiny from anyone elected official who has supported Amtrak.

 

[Barbara Gough]

I believe the former mayor of Meridian,MS who has served on one of the Amtrak boards has quite a bit of clout and would not allow service through Meridian to be discontinued. He was one of the strong proponants of the Crescent Star that would have split from the Crescent at Meridian for a run over the former Y&MV/L&A or Y&MV/T&P to Dallas. Amtrak had already started to set up a crew base in Meridian in anticipation to this. I think the Crescent Star would be closer to reality than re-routing the Crescent from Birmingham to New Orleans since KCS has done upgrades on the Meridian-Shreveport line. Also the Senator from MS has been a strong proponent of Amtrak would likely have something to say. Another Senator from AL has been very much against Amtrak. Let's face it Amtrak's routings are very political and any change would receive definite scrutiny from anyone elected official who has supported Amtrak.

I live in Meridian, MS and I wanted to correct the information about the mayor. He is still mayor of Meridian, not a former one. He did serve on the federal Amtrak board, butI don't believe he is still serving, on the board today. I imagine he still has connections though! Meridian had its beginnings a a railroad town due to two major lines crossing at this spot in the state. I come from a railroad family as my father was a freight conductor with Illinois Central for 47.5 years. My husband and I are taking a LD train trip west in a few days, and I am getting excitied as I have not ridden pullman (sleeper today!), in about 45 years! I know they have changed since then!

 

[AlanB]

I believe the former mayor of Meridian,MS who has served on one of the Amtrak boards has quite a bit of clout and would not allow service through Meridian to be discontinued. He was one of the strong proponants of the Crescent Star that would have split from the Crescent at Meridian for a run over the former Y&MV/L&A or Y&MV/T&P to Dallas. Amtrak had already started to set up a crew base in Meridian in anticipation to this. I think the Crescent Star would be closer to reality than re-routing the Crescent from Birmingham to New Orleans since KCS has done upgrades on the Meridian-Shreveport line. Also the Senator from MS has been a strong proponent of Amtrak would likely have something to say. Another Senator from AL has been very much against Amtrak. Let's face it Amtrak's routings are very political and any change would receive definite scrutiny from anyone elected official who has supported Amtrak.

I live in Meridian, MS and I wanted to correct the information about the mayor. He is still mayor of Meridian, not a former one. He did serve on the federal Amtrak board, butI don't believe he is still serving, on the board today. I imagine he still has connections though! Meridian had its beginnings a a railroad town due to two major lines crossing at this spot in the state. I come from a railroad family as my father was a freight conductor with Illinois Central for 47.5 years. My husband and I are taking a LD train trip west in a few days, and I am getting excitied as I have not ridden pullman (sleeper today!), in about 45 years! I know they have changed since then!

John Robert Smith, the mayor, is no longer serving on the Amtrak board. President Bush did not reapoint him because the mayor actually believed that Amtrak could and should be saved. During his tenure on the board though, John did a lot of good for Amtrak and actually spent two years IIRC as chairman of the board.

 

[had8ley]

I believe the former mayor of Meridian,MS who has served on one of the Amtrak boards has quite a bit of clout and would not allow service through Meridian to be discontinued. He was one of the strong proponants of the Crescent Star that would have split from the Crescent at Meridian for a run over the former Y&MV/L&A or Y&MV/T&P to Dallas. Amtrak had already started to set up a crew base in Meridian in anticipation to this. I think the Crescent Star would be closer to reality than re-routing the Crescent from Birmingham to New Orleans since KCS has done upgrades on the Meridian-Shreveport line. Also the Senator from MS has been a strong proponent of Amtrak would likely have something to say. Another Senator from AL has been very much against Amtrak. Let's face it Amtrak's routings are very political and any change would receive definite scrutiny from anyone elected official who has supported Amtrak.

I live in Meridian, MS and I wanted to correct the information about the mayor. He is still mayor of Meridian, not a former one. He did serve on the federal Amtrak board, butI don't believe he is still serving, on the board today. I imagine he still has connections though! Meridian had its beginnings a a railroad town due to two major lines crossing at this spot in the state. I come from a railroad family as my father was a freight conductor with Illinois Central for 47.5 years. My husband and I are taking a LD train trip west in a few days, and I am getting excitied as I have not ridden pullman (sleeper today!), in about 45 years! I know they have changed since then!

John Robert Smith, the mayor, is no longer serving on the Amtrak board. President Bush did not reapoint him because the mayor actually believed that Amtrak could and should be saved. During his tenure on the board though, John did a lot of good for Amtrak and actually spent two years IIRC as chairman of the board.

If you have ever seen the depot in Meridian you would see how big a fan the mayor is of Amtrak. Of course, Amtrak has dropped the ball on this one and has its crew base across the street in a rather archaic building that you have to walk through a shoe shine stand to get to.

 

[PRR 60]

John Robert Smith, the mayor, is no longer serving on the Amtrak board. President Bush did not reapoint him because the mayor actually believed that Amtrak could and should be saved. During his tenure on the board though, John did a lot of good for Amtrak and actually spent two years IIRC as chairman of the board.

Smith served as Chairman of the Board from March 2002 until his term expired in 2003. One can certainly argue the political motivations one way or the other, but political reality is that prior administration's appointments are very rarely reappointed by a new administration. That represents a political reality true for all parties and ideologies.

Before we wax poetic over Mr. Smith, one should remember that he was on the board and setting policy during the infamous "glidepath to self-sufficiency" era that is arguably the lowest point ever reached by Amtrak. I think one would be hard pressed to deny that the present board and Amtrak management are head and shoulders better that what was in place in the late 1990's and early 2000's.

 

[had8ley]

John Robert Smith, the mayor, is no longer serving on the Amtrak board. President Bush did not reapoint him because the mayor actually believed that Amtrak could and should be saved. During his tenure on the board though, John did a lot of good for Amtrak and actually spent two years IIRC as chairman of the board.

Smith served as Chairman of the Board from March 2002 until his term expired in 2003. One can certainly argue the political motivations one way or the other, but political reality is that prior administration's appointments are very rarely reappointed by a new administration. That represents a political reality true for all parties and ideologies.

Before we wax poetic over Mr. Smith, one should remember that he was on the board and setting policy during the infamous "glidepath to self-sufficiency" era that is arguably the lowest point ever reached by Amtrak. I think one would be hard pressed to deny that the present board and Amtrak management are head and shoulders better that what was in place in the late 1990's and early 2000's.

I wonder what Mr. Mayor would say about Amtrak crews having to use the old building across the street for a crew base, after going through the shoe shine parlor, or does he even know? I promise you, if you have ever seen this multi-million dollar shrine to Amtrak, that there is plenty of room to put lockers and a printer for inbound/outbound crews. Makes you wonder if there is a left hand let alone a right one.

 

[Guest_timetableflagman_*]

Such a re-route of the Crescent should be accompanied by a restored Pelican, probably as a section of the Crescent at Lynchburg running the "Meridian Speedway" route to Longview, TX to connect with the Eagle. The Pelican would by-pass Atlanta at Chattanooga and travel through Gadsden to Birmingham. The Crescent should go from Atlanta through La Grange to Montgomery.

These re-routes would, beside offering more coverage for Amtrak in the South, make better connection for East Coast-Texas travelers via athe Pelican and, as mentioned before, restore some service to the Gulf Coast. The Pelican, crossing the City of New Orleans route at Jackson, would also provide near mid-route (at least at the widest point) connection between the City and the Eagle without the far-northern Chicago connection, though possibly with considerable layover at Jackson. Nevertheless, more strategic passenger train service would be available throughout more of the South--not just token, wasted shortline, deadend routes such as are advocated by many.

To make Atlanta connections work through Birmingham, a restored Southwind or, maybe better yet, a Royal Palm connecting with the Pelican at Chattanooga and the Crescent at Atlanta would make those connections, especially if scheduled sensibly to connect quickly at Chattanooga. ...Even more Mid-south (and Chicago/national trains/Florida) connections!

Now, the naysayers....

 

[daveyb99]

Before we get off on YET ANOTHER WHAT-IF thread (and there are two going right now).....

Face it, AMTRAK is not making any changes, no reroutes, no nothing.

If they were, dont you think the PR people would be making a big "new service" splash to sell some tickets ???

Dont you think some enterprising young amtraktrains.com member would have already booked a ticket ???

Look how far in advance the airlines announce new service, no matter how trivial sounding. AMTRAK is not so stupid as to say nothing.

 

[had8ley]

Before we get off on YET ANOTHER WHAT-IF thread (and there are two going right now).....
Face it, AMTRAK is not making any changes, no reroutes, no nothing.

If they were, dont you think the PR people would be making a big "new service" splash to sell some tickets ???

Dont you think some enterprising young amtraktrains.com member would have already booked a ticket ???

Look how far in advance the airlines announce new service, no matter how trivial sounding. AMTRAK is not so stupid as to say nothing.

AMEN !!! I wish the Aflac goat would get ahold of this one also.

 

[Superliner Diner]

Interesting... anything is possible! Is it possible that the crescent could run alternate routes on different days? I know its crazy just saying, M W F Sun. run the current Birmingham to NOL route, Tus, Ths, Sat. run the Birmingham to Mobile to NOL route? Might please everyone huh? Again, crazy but just a thought.
It sure would be nice if it was possible to get on the train in Atlanta and get to Orlando. Just thinking... Atlanta to Orlando, sure it would have to be a seperate train from the crescent, but THAT would be great for me. In my dreams I know...

No, No, No, No, and No! I would hope that Amtrak learned its lesson of splitting trains, running them on alternate days over different routes, and that they will never try that again. Ridership suffered when it was done, and increased when the deed was reversed (daily service reinstated). They tried 6-day a week service on the CONO, and then when there was Pioneer and Desert Wind service they ran each one 3 days a week, different days of the week, so that there was no longer a combined Pioneer/Desert Wind/California Zephyr east of Salt Lake. I think the CZ also ran less-than-daily during this time. To confuse things even more, on the 3 days that the Pioneer left Seattle/Portland and Chicago, the Empire Builder reverted to just 4 days a week, the 4 days that the Pioneer wasn't running. Eventually to return daily service to the CZ and EB, the Pioneer and DW were cut.

 

[had8ley]

Such a re-route of the Crescent should be accompanied by a restored Pelican, probably as a section of the Crescent at Lynchburg running the "Meridian Speedway" route to Longview, TX to connect with the Eagle. The Pelican would by-pass Atlanta at Chattanooga and travel through Gadsden to Birmingham. The Crescent should go from Atlanta through La Grange to Montgomery.
These re-routes would, beside offering more coverage for Amtrak in the South, make better connection for East Coast-Texas travelers via athe Pelican and, as mentioned before, restore some service to the Gulf Coast. The Pelican, crossing the City of New Orleans route at Jackson, would also provide near mid-route (at least at the widest point) connection between the City and the Eagle without the far-northern Chicago connection, though possibly with considerable layover at Jackson. Nevertheless, more strategic passenger train service would be available throughout more of the South--not just token, wasted shortline, deadend routes such as are advocated by many.

To make Atlanta connections work through Birmingham, a restored Southwind or, maybe better yet, a Royal Palm connecting with the Pelican at Chattanooga and the Crescent at Atlanta would make those connections, especially if scheduled sensibly to connect quickly at Chattanooga. ...Even more Mid-south (and Chicago/national trains/Florida) connections!

Now, the naysayers....

Not to make little of your plans for added service but you would be surprised at the number of people in this area who have NEVER taken a train.(And New Orleans has trains going in every direction, except to Florida.) IF you institute new service to an area that hasn't had it since pre-Amtrak days you have to effectively market and keep selling it to the public. If there is one thing Amtrak is good at it's the lack of salesmanship. The agents in the stations are about the only salesmen I have ever met on Amtrak and they do a good job of promoting the system. But first you have to sell the people on the idea of taking the train and get them to the ticket window. I'm sure Amtrak has a sales department but they must be locked in a room somewhere.

 

[Guest]

"If there is one thing Amtrak is good at it's the lack of salesmanship."

AMEN! Atlanta's station is at the corner of its best known street, Peachtree Street, alongside one of the most heavily used interstates (going thru downtown, no less) in the state, I85, and yet my longtime neighbors living a few miles away, still have to be given directions to its location. Once they see it, there's the inevitable, "Oh, that's what that is!". How about using a nearby advertising billboard, Amtrak?

 

[Rafi]

"If there is one thing Amtrak is good at it's the lack of salesmanship."
AMEN! Atlanta's station is at the corner of its best known street, Peachtree Street, alongside one of the most heavily used interstates (going thru downtown, no less) in the state, I85, and yet my longtime neighbors living a few miles away, still have to be given directions to its location. Once they see it, there's the inevitable, "Oh, that's what that is!". How about using a nearby advertising billboard, Amtrak?

Worse yet, any time you ask someone in Atlanta where the train station is, they inevitably point you to the nearest MARTA stop! I still can't get used to that phenomenon.

Rafi

 

[GG-1]

"If there is one thing Amtrak is good at it's the lack of salesmanship."
AMEN! Atlanta's station is at the corner of its best known street, Peachtree Street, alongside one of the most heavily used interstates (going thru downtown, no less) in the state, I85, and yet my longtime neighbors living a few miles away, still have to be given directions to its location. Once they see it, there's the inevitable, "Oh, that's what that is!". How about using a nearby advertising billboard, Amtrak?

Worse yet, any time you ask someone in Atlanta where the train station is, they inevitably point you to the nearest MARTA stop! I still can't get used to that phenomenon.

Rafi

And I will never forget the Famous, Prestigious Fountainblue Hotel staff had no idea Miami had rail service (in 1983 IIRC).

Aloha

 

[Guest_timetableflagman_*]

I certainly agree! Advertisement is a must for promoting AMTRAK. Speaking of advertisement, at the risk of getting off topic, what about the possibility of AMTRAK leasing ad spaces on their cars (outside and inside) for about the same rate as a coach fare to offset some low ridership losses? I don't see it as being anymore objectionable than ads on TV. Maybe this might be a good separate topic.