Empire Builders settling into better timekeeping for the Summer

[neroden]

Honestly, I think Amtrak might be maintaining its engines just fine when they're actually getting maintenance -- I think they don't have enough of them to take them out of service as often as they should. It looks to me like 124 are used just for the longer-distance routes, and I can't figure out how many are needed for Chicago Hub service, but it's gonna be dozens. The multistate Charger procurement should give them a little breathing room to shop them. The P42s are 14 to 19 years old, however, and are only expected to last 30 years...

 

[afigg]

No amount of trackwork and increased track capacity is going to solve lousy engine maintenance. Whatever happened to the goal of being in the "State of good repair"?

There is the problem of attrition of the locomotives due to collisions or derailments. Yesterday, two locomotives were damaged. The widely reported Vermonter derailment due to a rock slide put a P-42 down an embankment (and from the photos, one Amfleet coach car was badly damaged as well).

The second, which has not been reported at AU, was the Coast Starlight #14 (10/5) hitting a large truck at a grade crossing near Salinas, CA. According to trainorders, the windows on the P-42 were damaged and the engineer may have been slightly injured. Monterey Herald: Train clips big rig near Salinas.

Amtrak's pool of available P-42s is reportedly getting very thin and that can make day to day maintenance problems even worse.

 

[neroden]

It's worth noting that the P42s are, frankly, obsolete at this point.

I believe they're "Tier 0" for diesel emissions -- and the current standard is "Tier 4". At least they're four-stroke.

They have DC motors. If I'm not mistaken, brushed DC motors. Nobody uses brushes and commutators any more and for good reason.

They use a lot of energy even in HEP-only mode (which sadly Amtrak needs to go into a lot when waiting for a signal), and they have to turn off the lights to switch to it.

There's no reuse of the braking energy.

What Amtrak needs to do is to replace them, with the options on the Charger order. If the money can be found.

 

[keelhauled]

It's worth noting that the P42s are, frankly, obsolete at this point.

I believe they're "Tier 0" for diesel emissions -- and the current standard is "Tier 4". At least they're four-stroke.

Depending on who you ask, this may be a good thing. The 7FDL engines in them are a reliable design, they date back to the 50s and have been used in thousands of GE locomotives. Tier 4 prime movers are less proven; the only one with extensive operating history is the GE GEVO which is used in MPI's HSP46, as well as GE's Evolution freight locomotives. Siemens is using an unproven Cummins engine, while EMD uses a Cat engine not yet used in rail applications.

They have DC motors. If I'm not mistaken, brushed DC motors. Nobody uses brushes and commutators any more and for good reason.

DC is not necessarily a bad thing. It works poorly at low speed and high loads, but that's not really an issue for passenger trains. In any case, it is considerably cheaper to replace traction motors than an entire locomotive.

IMO Amtrak would be just as well-served by rebuilding the Genesis units, primarily to address the traction motor failures. I don't believe the prime movers have a history of catastrophic failures, so there should be no need to perform major work on them, which would require added emissions compliance (I don't think rebuilt locomotives have to reach Tier 4, but they do have to improve). At the very least, wait until the Chargers are in service and they have enough service history to make an informed decision before betting the farm on them. Once the Chargers do start getting delivered, there will be considerably more breathing room for the Genesis fleet in any case, which should allow for additional maintenance to be done, assuming the shops have the capacity to do so.

It is possible that they are inefficient enough that more immediate replacement would be worthwhile based on fuel savings, but I doubt that anyone here has the numbers to make an informed judgment about that.

 

[neroden]

From a pollution point of view, the difference between Tier 0 and Tier 4 is stark:

HC* CO NOx PM

1.0 5.0 9.5 0.60 Tier 0 Line-haul duty regulation

1.0 5.0 8.0 0.22 "updated Tier 0" for newly remanufactured Tier 0 locomotives on line-haul duty

0.5 1.5 13.5 0.34 estimates of the average pollution level of line-haul duty locomotives in 1997

0.14 1.5 1.3 0.03 Tier 4 Line-haul duty regulation

2.1 8.0 14.0 0.72 Tier 0 Switch duty regulation

2.1 8.0 11.8 0.26 "updated Tier 0" for newly remanufactured Tier 0 locomotives on switch duty

1.1 2.4 19.8 0.41 estimates of the average pollution level of switch duty locomotives in 1997

0.14 2.4 1.3 0.03 Tier 4 Switch duty regulation

(Note that Tier 4 contains an option to meet a combined NOx + HC* level instead of the individual levels: 1.4 for line-haul duty, 1.3 for switch duty.)

(There is also a special exception for pre-1995 GE Genesis locos allowing higher NOx when more than 7000 feet above sea level, at temperatures above 105 F and barometric pressures below 97.5 kPa. Frankly, when the first regulations were written, they were carved out to basically have no requirements on the engines Amtrak was already having delivered at the time.)

The particulate matter limits in particular make an enormous difference: it's more than an order of magnitude.

Waiting on the platform at Chicago Union or Albany-Rensselaer or anywhere else with a lot of trains is going to get a *lot* better when the Tier 0 locomotives are replaced. It's not so much an issue at one-a-day intermediate stations, but at the busy stations with lots of idling, it makes a big difference.

The first locomotive emissions regs are from 1997; the second round are from 2008; I'm kind of expecting a third round in 2018, and I'm expecting them to tighten the screws on remanufacturing, since there's such a huge difference between the Tier 0 and Tier 4 standards. And diesel pollution in Chicago Union Station makes the news about once a year. The EPA standards in 2008 were designed on the assumption of incremental adoption of higher-tier locomotives into the fleet; if operators attempt to evade that by hanging on to really old engines, the rules will be changed to stop grandfathering the old engines. Amtrak doesn't own a single Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3, or Tier 4 engine except possibly for a few of the switchers.

Once the Chargers do start getting delivered, there will be considerably more breathing room for the Genesis fleet in any case, which should allow for additional maintenance to be done, assuming the shops have the capacity to do so.

Yes. I would personally expect the oddball P32-8s to be retired first.

Amtrak's first opportunity to start replacing or remanufacturing the P42s will be in late 2017 / early 2018 when the Chargers have been delivered to the other buyers. By then, the P42s -- those which haven't been lost in wrecks -- will be 17..22 years old. The P32AC-DMs are mostly older, although they have AC motors (which mean less maintenance), and the P40 rebuilds are even older, and the P32-8s are older than that *and* unsuitable for Amtrak's service profile.

The ideal outcome would be for Amtrak to buy Chargers (or whatever Tier 4 locomotive) slowly and continuously, retiring the P42s incrementally, so that Amtrak could maintain a steady replacement rate. This depends on Siemens (or whoever) continuing to get orders from other operators, though, since Amtrak can't generate enough orders by itself to keep the production line open on that basis.

 

[montana mike]

After a few days of decent timekeeping the wheels have fallen off #8, still in central Montana tonight. Looking at over 3 1/2 hours late and losing time every hour. I wonder if we have locomotive issues again?

:-(

Late Saturday PM: Now about 4 1/2 hours late......and still in MT. Good Grief.

 

[west point]

The problem that is forgotten about DC traction is the snow ingestion problem. With the DC brush motors you get flashover often especially with fine powder snow. It can happen around salt spray also. Amtrak has had trains stall due to many motors on a train grounding out.

 

[NW cannonball]

Overall - living near MSP -

It is still true that most Eastbound connections from the EB are broken -- maybe the LSL and the CONO might possibly work. Or not.

Overall - Empire Builder has got a lot better OTP - but - East-bound connections -- never trust. West-bound - the CS connection at Portland usually works. Or might not.

I've been looking at the details, and hoping, but eastbound from MSP on the Builder -- naah - fly or Megabus to Chi if you need an eastward connection from MSP.

 

[montana mike]

#8, still in ND, is now 6 hours and 42 minutes late this morning. Good Grief. At this rate this sucker is going to arrive in CHI around midnight tonight!

Sunday AM update: It was indeed another P42 that died, I believe at SPK. With the speed restrictions on the current BNSF locomotive, #8(9) will likely lose another hour or so (now over 7 hours behind) and a midnight arrival or later is now likely. Not a good last couple of weeks for the Amtrak locomotives.

:-(

 

[tim49424]

Yesterday 8 was early into Chicago but even a blind squirrel finds the nut sometimes. lol

 

[montana mike]

Overall - living near MSP -

It is still true that most Eastbound connections from the EB are broken -- maybe the LSL and the CONO might possibly work. Or not.

Overall - Empire Builder has got a lot better OTP - but - East-bound connections -- never trust. West-bound - the CS connection at Portland usually works. Or might not.

I've been looking at the details, and hoping, but eastbound from MSP on the Builder -- naah - fly or Megabus to Chi if you need an eastward connection from MSP.

I agree with your advice. My upcoming trip is set to connect with the CL ( a 2 hour 45 minute connection time), but I will have a Plan B of staying overnight just outside of ORD then flying to DCA the next morning so I can make my conference on time if my Builder is very late. Sad to have to do this, but Amtrak's ability to get the Builders into CHI, while better than the last several years, is still very inconsistent.

The last significant delays are self inflicted, with their locomotives crapping out on them enroute.

 

[Palmetto]

#8, still in ND, is now 6 hours and 42 minutes late this morning. Good Grief. At this rate this sucker is going to arrive in CHI around midnight tonight!

Sunday AM update: It was indeed another P42 that died, I believe at SPK. With the speed restrictions on the current BNSF locomotive, #8(9) will likely lose another hour or so (now over 7 hours behind) and a midnight arrival or later is now likely. Not a good last couple of weeks for the Amtrak locomotives.

:-(

According to what I hear on the Whitefish radio Saturday morning, the train was being pulled by TWO freight locos: one BNSF and one KCS. KCS? Is that possible?

 

[Agent]

#8, still in ND, is now 6 hours and 42 minutes late this morning. Good Grief. At this rate this sucker is going to arrive in CHI around midnight tonight!

Sunday AM update: It was indeed another P42 that died, I believe at SPK. With the speed restrictions on the current BNSF locomotive, #8(9) will likely lose another hour or so (now over 7 hours behind) and a midnight arrival or later is now likely. Not a good last couple of weeks for the Amtrak locomotives.

:-(

According to what I hear on the Whitefish radio Saturday morning, the train was being pulled by TWO freight locos: one BNSF and one KCS. KCS? Is that possible?

Yes. Here's a report from that train. The Kansas City Southern engine was added after an Amtrak unit went bad. Then a BNSF unit was added because of a bad radio on the KCS. And then both freight units were swapped for another BNSF unit at Havre.

 

[montana mike]

Not Amtrak's finest hour to be sure!!! I took literally dozens of trips on the Empire Builders every year for years without a single locomotive breakdown issue. Perhaps I was lucky, or perhaps the age of the equipment is beginning to show. I these engines are failing for the EB's I would expect there are similar issues on the rLD runs as well now. Nothing like a 7 or 8 hour delay in one's train ride to turn a budding Amtrak traveler into something else quickly.

:-(

 

[TraneMan]

Last night's #8 got stuck behind a CP train in/near Minot as CP train has hit a car that was blocking the track.. So, that added delays.

 

[montana mike]

And something is happening to tonight's #8 between Williston and Stanley. Now 3 1/2 hours behind and stopped in between stations. This train is snake bit for sure!!!!

 

[rainpants]

And something is happening to tonight's #8 between Williston and Stanley. Now 3 1/2 hours behind and stopped in between stations. This train is snake bit for sure!!!!

There's a 60 mph wind advisory in ND, apparently we have to sit still until they die down.

 

[montana mike]

I see that. Wow, if it isn't one thing it's another!!! The Builder has been sitting in western ND for over 2 hours now, unable to move. This could be another very late arrival tomorrow night. The High Wind warning lasts until tomorrow!!!

 

[montana mike]

#8 in ND now just over 10 hours late (arrival scheduled at MOT about 10 1/2 hours behind!!), mostly due to the high wind delay. #8 in MT this AM lost over an hour after SPK. All of the very late arrivals may start having a ripple effect in departures from CHI as had happened in the past. With no extra train set in PDX/SEA we could start the downward spiral of service again.

Update: #8 in ND now around 11 hours behind. #8 in MT is now 90 minutes behind. Not a good trend....

 

[afigg]

#8 in ND now just over 10 hours late (arrival scheduled at MOT about 10 1/2 hours behind!!), mostly due to the high wind delay. #8 in MT this AM lost over an hour after SPK. All of the very late arrivals may start having a ripple effect in departures from CHI as had happened in the past. With no extra train set in PDX/SEA we could start the downward spiral of service again.

Update: #8 in ND now around 11 hours behind. #8 in MT is now 90 minutes behind. Not a good trend....

The locomotive breakdown that delayed #8(10/09) is on Amtrak, but Amtrak can't do much about the weather. Look at the bright side, there was a brief one week period where #8 did better in getting to Chicago. The eastbound EB has been doing better in the past several months than the Texas Eagle, which has been arriving at Chicago anywhere between on-time and 4 hours late in an almost random pattern of lateness.

History for Amtrak 8 at CHI (Chicago - Union Station, IL)
Origin Date Sch AR Act AR Comments Service Disruption Cancellations
10/10/2015 (Sa) 10/12/2015 3:55 PM (Mo)  CT SD
10/09/2015 (Fr) 10/11/2015 3:55 PM (Su) 10:14PM Arr: 6 hr, 19 min late. 
10/08/2015 (Th) 10/10/2015 3:55 PM (Sa) 3:39PM Arr: 16 min early. 
10/07/2015 (We) 10/09/2015 3:55 PM (Fr) 5:47PM Arr: 1 hr, 52 min late. 
10/06/2015 (Tu) 10/08/2015 3:55 PM (Th) 5:07PM Arr: 1 hr, 12 min late. 
10/05/2015 (Mo) 10/07/2015 3:55 PM (We) 4:34PM Arr: 39 min late. 
10/04/2015 (Su) 10/06/2015 3:55 PM (Tu) 3:42PM Arr: 13 min early. 
10/03/2015 (Sa) 10/05/2015 3:55 PM (Mo) 3:43PM Arr: 12 min early. 
10/02/2015 (Fr) 10/04/2015 3:55 PM (Su) 5:41PM Arr: 1 hr, 46 min late. 
10/01/2015 (Th) 10/03/2015 3:55 PM (Sa) 4:43PM Arr: 48 min late.

 

[montana mike]

#8 in ND now just over 10 hours late (arrival scheduled at MOT about 10 1/2 hours behind!!), mostly due to the high wind delay. #8 in MT this AM lost over an hour after SPK. All of the very late arrivals may start having a ripple effect in departures from CHI as had happened in the past. With no extra train set in PDX/SEA we could start the downward spiral of service again.

Update: #8 in ND now around 11 hours behind. #8 in MT is now 90 minutes behind. Not a good trend....

The locomotive breakdown that delayed #8(10/09) is on Amtrak, but Amtrak can't do much about the weather. Look at the bright side, there was a brief one week period where #8 did better in getting to Chicago. The eastbound EB has been doing better in the past several months than the Texas Eagle, which has been arriving at Chicago anywhere between on-time and 4 hours late in an almost random pattern of lateness.

History for Amtrak 8 at CHI (Chicago - Union Station, IL)
Origin Date Sch AR Act AR Comments Service Disruption Cancellations
10/10/2015 (Sa) 10/12/2015 3:55 PM (Mo) CT SD
10/09/2015 (Fr) 10/11/2015 3:55 PM (Su) 10:14PM Arr: 6 hr, 19 min late.
10/08/2015 (Th) 10/10/2015 3:55 PM (Sa) 3:39PM Arr: 16 min early.
10/07/2015 (We) 10/09/2015 3:55 PM (Fr) 5:47PM Arr: 1 hr, 52 min late.
10/06/2015 (Tu) 10/08/2015 3:55 PM (Th) 5:07PM Arr: 1 hr, 12 min late.
10/05/2015 (Mo) 10/07/2015 3:55 PM (We) 4:34PM Arr: 39 min late.
10/04/2015 (Su) 10/06/2015 3:55 PM (Tu) 3:42PM Arr: 13 min early.
10/03/2015 (Sa) 10/05/2015 3:55 PM (Mo) 3:43PM Arr: 12 min early.
10/02/2015 (Fr) 10/04/2015 3:55 PM (Su) 5:41PM Arr: 1 hr, 46 min late.
10/01/2015 (Th) 10/03/2015 3:55 PM (Sa) 4:43PM Arr: 48 min late.

Sadly the better timekeeping, while encouraging, appears to be the exception in the overall scheme of things lately. My BNSF guy reminded me this AM that construction and heavy freight traffic are still going to cause intermittent 2-3 hour delays on this route until mid-November, especially Monday thru Friday. Throw in the Amtrak self inflicted wounds, the bad weather, and other outside issues and we are heading back to where we were last year. One has to think the #7 scheduled to depart CHI tomorrow may be delayed, since #8 won't arrive into CHI until well after midnight now. It will be interesting to see if today's #7 departure is on time, since yesterday's arrival was around 6 1/2 hours late. I could not find a reason why #8 into WFH today was about 90 minutes late. My BNSF contacts said they didn't hear of any issues that would have caused this delay from their part of the puzzle.

Good point about TE. The EB's aren't the only ones suffering to be sure. I just cling to the hope that this train will get back to where it was for years and years, on time over 90% of the time! Yes, I know, when pigs fly!!!! LOL

 

[montana mike]

#8 in ND now 11 1/2 hours behind--yikes!! #7, also in ND (they normally meet just north of Chicago btw) lost 2 1/2 hours thru ND last night. Meanwhile #8 in western MT continues to loss time as well, now running over 2 hours behind. Looking like my Plan B (flying from ORD to DCA) for my Chicago connection may come into play. Rats.

BTW: Winds are still in the 30-40 mph range at many locations in ND this morning.

 

[OBS]

At least you had a plan B. Unfortunate for the majority of passengers who are just saying "never again"....

 

[montana mike]

At least you had a plan B. Unfortunate for the majority of passengers who are just saying "never again"....

Yes, thank goodness. But I would prefer to take the train all the way. Oh, well....

I see #8 has finally made it into MN now, running about 12 hours behind--good grief. I don't see this train ready to go by 2 PM tomorrow if it arrives at 4 AM in the morning!! #7 in ND is now 4 hours down. It still has to go thru an area in eastern MT that has experienced about a 1 hour delay due to construction. This train is going to arrive perhaps only an hour or two at best before it needs to leave SEA and PDX--not going to happen.

 

[Palmetto]

I'm curious as to why you didn't just book a hotel near CUS and reserve on the next day's train.