Error in Heritage Paint Schemes

[ronkstevens]

What is the best way to inform Amtrak that there is a serrious mistake on their Heritage and special paint schemes. Then the next question would be, "Will they fix it?"

The United States flag on the engineer side of the equipment is facing the wrong way. The star field is always forward. (Think of how a flag looks when carried in a parade). A rear-facing flag indicates retreat.

Every Heritage paint scheme, including the Veteran's #42, is wrong. The ACS-64's are correct.

While it may not seem like a big deal to some, I would guess that some Veterans that are knowledgeable about flag eddiquite would see it as insulting.

 

[benjibear]

The issue is the flag when displayed flat, like against the engine, the stars should always be upward and to the left.

If it is on a pole flapping, like you indicate in a parade, yes the stars should always go first.

With Amtrak painting the flag completely flat, they are correct. However, to possibly make it more appealing and to make it look like it is a parade, Amtrak could paint it on a pole with the flag flapping a little in the wind. which is how it is painted on the ACS-64.

Now to complicate matters, I believe the ACS-64 has controls on both ends so it could look like the flag is going backwards. The same would be true with any unit that has a flapping flag. Technically it would always have to run in the correct direction for the flag.

I don't think Amtrak made a mistake and they just decided on a method. Actually, having the flag flapping could cause more issues than just having it flat.

 

[buddy559]

American and Delta, have their flags displayed as the OP had suggested. On the right side of the aircraft the flag is stars forward. It almost looks like a mirror image.

 

[ronkstevens]

A flag decal on a vehicle is treated the same as an arm badge. See http://www.americanflags.org/docs/etiquette.jsp?pageId=0690200091781119362386970

ACS-64 on leading end of cab flag would be correct. When locomotive is reversed leading end is correct

 

[ronkstevens]

 

[Aaron]

Regardless of what the "National Flag Foundation" says, there appears to be nothing in the US Flag Code regarding display of a flag painting or decal on a moving vehicle. The army has their own uniform regulation regarding what a flag on the right shoulder would look like, but that's only for uniforms and not for trains (and has apparently only been a required part of the uniform in the last 10 years or so). I don't know about other branches

I've seen flags painted in "reverse" (meaning the union towards the front) on planes before, although I doubt it rises to the level of a ICAO decree like your link claims. A train's a different matter, though. A train locomotive is different from a plane in the sense that the locomotive can often be seen running in reverse. Planes don't often fly backwards. If you've got a locomotive hooked up backwards, but you painted the union toward the front, now your flag is backwards to the usual orientation and retreating. I can't state whether that was Amtrak's thinking here, but what they did with the ACS-64 kind of suggests that. On the ACS-64, there's a cab at each end, so under each cab's side window is a flag with the union facing the front. Whichever way the locomotive is hooked up, there will be a pair of flags at the leading end that appear to be advancing, and a pair at the trailing end that appear in retreat.

So, feel free to contact Amtrak about it if you'd like, but don't be surprised if they ignore you. They may have considered the problem and just decided they didn't care enough about it to deal with making them look backwards to the lay observer. As one of those lay observers, I think a static representation of a flag that's not an actual flag attached to a pole ought to have the union in the upper left. Anything else just looks weird to me. An actual flag attached to a pole waves in the breeze, a decal attached to something does not. A flag decal is not a flag, in a way reminiscent of Magritte's "Treachery of Images" (ce n'est pas un pavilion?).

 

[andersone]

well since you mentioned flag decals (from John Prine)

While digesting Reader's Digest
In the back of a dirty book store,
A plastic flag, with gum on the back,
Fell out on the floor.
Well, I picked it up and I ran outside
Slapped it on my window shield,
And if I could see old Betsy Ross
I'd tell her how good I feel.

Chorus:
But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.

Well, I went to the bank this morning
And the cashier he said to me,
"If you join the Christmas club
We'll give you ten of them flags for free."
Well, I didn't mess around a bit
I took him up on what he said.
And I stuck them stickers all over my car
And one on my wife's forehead.

Repeat Chorus:

Well, I got my window shield so filled
With flags I couldn't see.
So, I ran the car upside a curb
And right into a tree.
By the time they got a doctor down
I was already dead.
And I'll never understand why the man
Standing in the Pearly Gates said...

"But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
We're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more."

 

[rickycourtney]

On the website you linked to it says that the flag shouldn't really be on a railroad train:

“The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat." (U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(b))

Also, the rule you state about flag patches applies only to military uniforms. In fact on one of the most recognizable civilian uniforms, the Boy Scout uniform the patch is worn on the right sleeve with the star field on the left side:

According to the Boy Scouts of America this is the proper way for a civilian to wear the patch (the scouts aren't the type to violate flag rules.)

Clearly the flag code is pretty murky waters...

 

[Ryan]

<--- Eagle Scout and Veteran

The United States flag on the engineer side of the equipment is facing the wrong way. The star field is always forward. (Think of how a flag looks when carried in a parade). A rear-facing flag indicates retreat.

Incorrect.

See the American Legion (another organization that aren't the type to violate the rules):

http://www.legion.org/flag/questions-answers/91466/how-flag-decal-be-displayed-motor-vehicle

How is a flag decal to be displayed on a motor vehicle?

Category:

Miscellaneous

Question:

How is a flag decal to be displayed on a motor vehicle?

Answer:

Unfortunately, the Flag Code does not offer much in terms of clear and concise guidance. There are two schools of thought with regards to the display of a flag decal on an automobile.

First, when a person is walking forward with a staffed flag “aloft and free” the blue union would be forward. So one can argue that the blue field of the flag decal would face forward when placed on the side of the automobile. This is the preferred method.

However, the same methodology from reading Flag Code section 7(i) with regards to the display of the flag from a wall can also be applied, namely that the blue union would be in the upper left hand corner (observer’s).

Either display technically would be correct.

Edit to add: As a Navy veteran, I think that the Army and their backwards-arse patch are backwards. When displayed on a flat surface, such as a wall (or the side of a locomotive), the union should be displayed to the observer's left.

 

[Acela150]

Ryan I didn't know Ellie was a Eagle scout and Navy vet.. :lol: Couldn't resisit that.. With the arrow facing her picture as your avatar.

 

[Ryan]

You know, I almost put a disclaimer on there, figuring some wise guy would say that. Congrats.

 

[Ispolkom]

As usual, snopes.com has an interesting explanation.

What strikes me is that the reference is to early battles. Land battles. In any sailing ship action, the flag would have streamed forward (or perhaps at an angle). It would have never streamed backwards, unless the ship were in irons (a bad thing). Having had the privilege to ride on the USS Constitution once when she made her yearly turn-about trip in Boston harbor, I'd never dare say that she ever displayed the flag incorrectly.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

With no intention to threadjack, but strictly concerning the flag, I think this is what you want to see on Amtrak: http://www.flickr.com/photos/19126773@N08/6054859690/sizes/l/in/set-72157627231776699/.

 

[ronkstevens]

With no intention to threadjack, but strictly concerning the flag, I think this is what you want to see on Amtrak: http://www.flickr.com/photos/19126773@N08/6054859690/sizes/l/in/set-72157627231776699/.

Actually, growing up I remember the old MCI "Americruiser" with what I thought was a backwards flag, until I learned why

 

[Walt]

While it may not seem like a big deal to some, I would guess that some Veterans that are knowledgeable about flag eddiquite would see it as insulting.

A Veterans might also find it insulting when someone claims to be an expert in such matters, but clearly is not. IMHO, what Aaron and Ryan posted, is the correct viewpoint.

Regardless of what the "National Flag Foundation" says, there appears to be nothing in the US Flag Code regarding display of a flag painting or decal on a moving vehicle. The army has their own uniform regulation regarding what a flag on the right shoulder would look like, but that's only for uniforms and not for trains (and has apparently only been a required part of the uniform in the last 10 years or so). I don't know about other branches

Answer:

Unfortunately, the Flag Code does not offer much in terms of clear and concise guidance.

Edit to add: As a Navy veteran, I think that the Army and their backwards-arse patch are backwards. When displayed on a flat surface, such as a wall (or the side of a locomotive), the union should be displayed to the observer's left.

I have to agree. Their patch always looks so very wrong to the eye.

 

[ronkstevens]

I never said I was an expert.

I apoligize if I have inadvertantly insulted anybody.

As it was originally explained to me (well before web sites even existed to have such information, and from someone who was quite knowledgeable) was that a decal on a vehicle follows the rule as I had explained. While not specifically mentioned in the code, the reason that I was told was that this gives the same appearance as if there was a flag mounted on a mast on the vehicle.

 

[Acela150]

You know, I almost put a disclaimer on there, figuring some wise guy would say that. Congrats.

<----- Wise guy! I'll hide my face behind my avatar!