European Rail Info

[Guest]

On an entirely different topic, has anyone seen the new Casino Royale (James Bond movie)? That train does not really exist in Montenegro, right? Is it a German ICE?

It's an Italian built Pendolino tilting train, and it's a Czech railways model. There aren't any in Montenegro, but the Slovenians do have one.

 

[George Harris]

In particular, to all indications, track quality and safety have significantly declined and it is only the longevity of the components that is staving off disaster.

One thing I don't understand is why track quality should have declined as a result of privatization. Network Rail, a state-owned and operated company, still owns the rail. Only operators, so far as I know, have been privatized.

It declined because IIRC, originally even the rails were privatized. It was only after a series of serious and fatal accidents, that the Government brought back the rails and created Network Rail. That one move cost Britian more money than if they had never privatized the system in the first place.

In addition to the very true statement made by Alan, the cooperation between track forces and train operators is virtually gone and it is expected by the train operators that track maintenance and improvements will be performed without track occupancy (pause for laughter) by the maintenance forces. As a result, the track maintenance expenses are increasing but the actual work has declined. That being from people that have inside knowledge.

 

[Palmland]

Back to the original post of planning a European trip. Are the Thomas Cook timetables still published? They used to be the best way to plan a trip, although no fares included.

I believe there was a European version and an 'Overseas' edition.

 

[caravanman]

In an earlier life I worked for British Rail as a Locomotive Secondman, or Trainee train driver, in the early 1970's...There was a real wealth of rail employee expertise around then. There would often be several generations of a family with rail employment connections. This, together with a wish to "keep the job running", meant staff would know their jobs well, and try to ensure trains ran as they should.

There was a movie out in the UK a few years ago which underlined the way at least one section of the track workforce has now lost that thorough knowledge and tradition of safe working practices built up over generations. Since privatisation, track workers are mostly unskilled general hands, working in a factory last month, working on the rails next month...

Ed B)

 

[jamesontheroad]

Back to the original post of planning a European trip. Are the Thomas Cook timetables still published? They used to be the best way to plan a trip, although no fares included.

They are indeed still published... you can get a subscription for monthly updates, and quarterly editions can be ordered from Amazon UK. Here are links to the winter 2006/7 edition and the spring 2007 edition. There's also plenty of information on the website of Thomas Cook Publishing

And if anyone's feeling generous, you'll find them on my Amazon.co.uk wish list

*j*

 

[gyuri_ft]

I apologize if this doesn't quiote pertain to Amtrak, however, I am hoping for some assistance.
I am contemplating a trip to Cologne, Germany and would like to visit several regions of Germany and France (specifically, Normandy, France and the Schleswig Holstein region in Germany). Are there any websites that would be able to provide schedule and fair info for Europe and/or trains leaving Cologne, Germany?

Is it relatively affordable to travel Europe by rail compared to Amtrak?

Sorry tp show up late, my dad (77) is having serious health issues now, in the fact, they are serious enough we will give up our US residence and move back to the "old country" (or close-by places) as soon as we can.

A very good way to travel a lot in a day in Germany are the LOCAL country passes valid for a single day. Typically, they cost under 20 Euro for a single person and 25 Euro for a group of up to five people. The limitation is, you cannot use fast (or faster or fastest) trains, only (fast enough) "regional" trains. Most locals or not-so-locals is using them even for long-distance travel within Germany "attaching" several passes. These passes can be bought on-line on www.bahn.de or for 2 Euro more at the station.

France is a bit more difficult, esp. how to move from Köln to Paris. The Thalys is great but unless you buy a special ticket pretty expensive. I would move down the Rhine river till Koblenz or Mainz (VERY spectacular!), than along the Mosel river till Trier (also very nice, many castles on the hills). From there you can use "regular" French trains to Paris, not so expensive.

FYI: French railways is struggling with few issues. One issue is in my opinion flawed "Globalisation". I.e. using trains where regular iternational tickets are not accepted, only either international railpasses - sometimes with a hefty surcharge - or "global-price" (bucket-based prices). People hate it, we do hate it, but also we have to admit, it was an other issue: high petty crime rate on rails in southern regions of France and SNCF sees the "globalisation" as one way to increase the prices and practically discourage the not-so-well-off from long-distance train travel (yikes!). There are many debates, generally most railfans think it's a flawed approach.

You can "beat" it by carefully using international tickets (tickets issued in Germany, for instance) and avoiding very fast trains. These tickets are valid 2 mo. and unlimited stops. A good source of transportation is the "TER" division of SNCF:

http://www.ter-sncf.com/index.asp

These run local trains where your international tickets are always valid, no "globalisation" on TER.

Regarding railpasses sold outside of Europe as well as point-to-point tickets: please, avoid. With careful planing you can get a "circular" ticket for France valid for unlimited stops and 2 month for under 130 Euro. Compare it with any railpass - it's not just costs less, but gives you 60 days in 60 days rail travel rather 3-5 days in 60 days (except the most expensive options).

If you are a group of 2-5 people, a CITY-STAR ticket for Germany bought in Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary or Balkan countries is the best deal. For extensive travel in France a regular international (CIV-TCV) fare ticket bought outside of France is the best, but good planing for both are essential because changing the route is a major pain in the rear.

 

[jamesontheroad]

While booking some train tickets today I thought I'd expand on what I mentioned earlier about the perplexing variety of tickets that privitisation has brough to the British network. These are all the tickets that you can purchase for travel from London to Glasgow, with their conditions and prices (for travel in January 2007).

GNER STD ADVANCE1 (AP GNER ONLY) 15.00 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE C (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 17.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE C (AP RUGBY) 18.50 GBP

GNER STD ADVANCE2 (GNER & CONNECTNS) 24.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE B (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 28.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE B (AP RUGBY) 30.50 GBP

GNER STD ADVANCE3 (GNER & CONNECTNS) 32.00 GBP

APEX SINGLE (AP SCOTRAIL ONLY) 34.00 GBP

GNER STD ADVANCE4 (AP GNER ONLY) 38.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE A (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 38.50 GBP

GNER STD ADVANCE4 (GNER & CONNECTNS) 39.50 GBP

GNER 1ST ADVANCE1 (AP GNER ONLY) 40.00 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE A (AP RUGBY) 40.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE 1ST SINGLE C (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 43.00 GBP

GNER 1ST ADVANCE2 (GNER & CONNECTNS) 56.00 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE 1ST SINGLE B (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 59.00 GBP

APEX SINGLE (CAL SLEEPER APEX) 66.00 GBP

STANDARD OPEN SINGLE (SCOTRAIL ONLY) 68.00 GBP

GNER 1ST ADVANCE3 (GNER & CONNECTNS) 73.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE 1ST SINGLE A (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 75.50 GBP

GNER 1ST ADVANCE4 (GNER & CONNECTNS) 91.00 GBP

SAVER SINGLE (ANY PERMITTED) 97.20 GBP

STANDARD OPEN SINGLE (CAL SLEEPER) 110.00 GBP

GNER 1ST ADVANCE5 (AP GNER ONLY) 112.00 GBP

STANDARD OPEN SINGLE (ANY PERMITTED) 120.00 GBP

ADVANCE FIRST B (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 133.00 GBP

FIRST OPEN SINGLE (CAL SLEEPER) 145.00 GBP

ADVANCE FIRST A (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 150.50 GBP

GNER 1ST OPEN SINGLE (GNER TRAINS ONLY) 157.50 GBP

FIRST OPEN SINGLE (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 173.50 GBP

FIRST OPEN SINGLE (ANY PERMITTED) 177.50 GBP

So, as you can see, the low-cost airline model of price buckets has most definitely been applied! The only problem is that thetrainline.com will still list these options even if they're not available, so you're always aware which cheaper tickets you've missed.

Double those prices to get an approximate US dollar conversion. Notice how with three different operators (GNER from London King's Cross, Virgin from London Euston and Scotrail's Caledonian Sleeper overnight from London Euston) there is a bewildering choice. In bold are the only tickets valid on all routes.

*j* :blink:

 

[MrFSS]

While booking some train tickets today I thought I'd expand on what I mentioned earlier about the perplexing variety of tickets that privitisation has brought to the British network. These are all the tickets that you can purchase for travel from London to Glasgow, with their conditions and prices (for travel in January 2007).
GNER STD ADVANCE1 (AP GNER ONLY) 15.00 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE C (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 17.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE C (AP RUGBY) 18.50 GBP

GNER STD ADVANCE2 (GNER & CONNECTNS) 24.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE B (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 28.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE B (AP RUGBY) 30.50 GBP

GNER STD ADVANCE3 (GNER & CONNECTNS) 32.00 GBP

APEX SINGLE (AP SCOTRAIL ONLY) 34.00 GBP

GNER STD ADVANCE4 (AP GNER ONLY) 38.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE A (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 38.50 GBP

GNER STD ADVANCE4 (GNER & CONNECTNS) 39.50 GBP

GNER 1ST ADVANCE1 (AP GNER ONLY) 40.00 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE A (AP RUGBY) 40.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE 1ST SINGLE C (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 43.00 GBP

GNER 1ST ADVANCE2 (GNER & CONNECTNS) 56.00 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE 1ST SINGLE B (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 59.00 GBP

APEX SINGLE (CAL SLEEPER APEX) 66.00 GBP

STANDARD OPEN SINGLE (SCOTRAIL ONLY) 68.00 GBP

GNER 1ST ADVANCE3 (GNER & CONNECTNS) 73.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE 1ST SINGLE A (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 75.50 GBP

GNER 1ST ADVANCE4 (GNER & CONNECTNS) 91.00 GBP

SAVER SINGLE (ANY PERMITTED) 97.20 GBP

STANDARD OPEN SINGLE (CAL SLEEPER) 110.00 GBP

GNER 1ST ADVANCE5 (AP GNER ONLY) 112.00 GBP

STANDARD OPEN SINGLE (ANY PERMITTED) 120.00 GBP

ADVANCE FIRST B (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 133.00 GBP

FIRST OPEN SINGLE (CAL SLEEPER) 145.00 GBP

ADVANCE FIRST A (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 150.50 GBP

GNER 1ST OPEN SINGLE (GNER TRAINS ONLY) 157.50 GBP

FIRST OPEN SINGLE (VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY) 173.50 GBP

FIRST OPEN SINGLE (ANY PERMITTED) 177.50 GBP

So, as you can see, the low-cost airline model of price buckets has most definitely been applied! The only problem is that thetrainline.com will still list these options even if they're not available, so you're always aware which cheaper tickets you've missed.

Double those prices to get an approximate US dollar conversion. Notice how with three different operators (GNER from London King's Cross, Virgin from London Euston and Scotrail's Caledonian Sleeper overnight from London Euston) there is a bewildering choice. In bold are the only tickets valid on all routes.

*j* :blink:

That's amazing. Do you have any idea what the daily ridership is between these two cities? Also, I would assume there are a great number of passengers traveling between intermediate stops, too.

 

[jamesontheroad]

That's amazing. Do you have any idea what the daily ridership is between these two cities? Also, I would assume there are a great number of passengers traveling between intermediate stops, too.

You can access some basic station statistics through The Office of the Rail Regulator. I'm not sure about specific numbers between certain cities, but I did find out after a brief search that London Euston station counted 12,849,388 entries in 2004-5 (or a little over 35,200 each day). Glasgow Central (which has a much greater number of cross-country and suburban rail services than Euston) had 13,228,465 entries over the same period (or about 36,250 people every day).

Since point to point figures are harder to nail down, thinking in terms of capacity... a 9 coach Virgin Trains Pendolino carries about 450 passengers at capacity, and there are usually nine trains a day in each direction between London and Glasgow along the west coast main line (not counting the two daily GNER services from London King's Cross up the east coast main line). That means there are roughly four thousand seats a day in each direction between the two Glasgow and Euston, so probably about five thousand including GNER and sleeper services.

*j* :blink:

 

[George Harris]

The word that comes to my mind looking at all this is, INSANITY !

 

[Sealink]

While looking for another topic, I found this one.

Time for an update on fares, 2008 style. This is the new "simplified" fare structure. This is also London to Glasgow.

Ticket Type Route/Company Price

NXEC STD ADVANCE1.5 NXEC & CONNECTNS 15.70GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE C VIRGIN TRNS ONLY 18.50 GBP

NXEC STD ADVANCE1 NXEC & CONNECTNS 21.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE2 AP SCOTRAIL ONLY 23.00 GBP

NXEC STD ADVANCE2 NXEC & CONNECTNS 27.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE B VIRGIN TRNS ONLY 30.00 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE1 AP SCOTRAIL ONLY 34.00 GBP

NXEC STD ADVANCE3 NXEC & CONNECTNS 36.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE SINGLE A VIRGIN TRNS ONLY 40.50 GBP

NXEC 1ST ADVANCE1 NXEC & CONNECTNS 44.40 GBP

NXEC STD ADVANCE4 NXEC & CONNECTNS 45.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE 1ST SINGLE C VIRGIN TRNS ONLY 46.00 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE2 CAL SLEEPER APEX 49.50 GBP

NXEC 1ST ADVANCE2 NXEC & CONNECTNS 61.50 GBP

ADVANCE STANDARD C VIRGIN TRNS ONLY 61.50 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE 1ST SINGLE B VIRGIN TRNS ONLY 63.00 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE1 CAL SLEEPER APEX 66.00 GBP

NXEC STD ADVANCE5 NXEC & CONNECTNS 69.50 GBP

STANDARD OPEN SINGLE SCOTRAIL ONLY 71.00 GBP

VALUE ADVANCE 1ST SINGLE A VIRGIN TRNS ONLY 80.50 GBP

NXEC 1ST ADVANCE3 NXEC & CONNECTNS 80.50 GBP

ADVANCE STANDARD B VIRGIN TRNS ONLY 84.50 GBP

NXEC 1ST ADVANCE4 NXEC & CONNECTNS 100.00 GBP

ADVANCE STANDARD A VIRGIN TRNS ONLY 101.50 GBP

SAVER SINGLE ANY PERMITTED 101.90 GBP

Incidentally, the SAVER RETURN is 102.90GBP, which offers far more flexibility than many of the 'cheaper' single fares.

It's not clear to many users that when the cheapest single fares are around £40 that they're better to take the Saver return

STANDARD OPEN SINGLE CAL SLEEPER 115.00 GBP

NXEC 1ST ADVANCE5 NXEC & CONNECTNS 122.50 GBP

STANDARD OPEN SINGLE ANY PERMITTED 126.00 GBP

ADVANCE FIRST B VIRGIN TRNS ONLY 142.00 GBP

FIRST OPEN SINGLE CAL SLEEPER 152.00 GBP

ADVANCE FIRST A VIRGIN TRNS ONLY 160.50 GBP

NXEC 1ST OPEN SINGLE NXEC TRAINS ONLY 172.00 GBP

FIRST OPEN SINGLE VIRGIN TRNS ONLY 185.50 GBP

FIRST OPEN SINGLE ANY PERMITTED 189.50 GBP

 

[Chris J.]

While looking for another topic, I found this one.Time for an update on fares, 2008 style. This is the new "simplified" fare structure. This is also London to Glasgow.

Don't forget, you can sometimes get a cheaper fare by splitting the journey and using two tickets, and if you're travelling on any weekend expect some diversions or bustitutions .. how many years and how much money and the WCML still isn't finished, and even when it is they never got the 140mph running on it.

I recently checked the fares to go to my parents - the price range for this 400 mile journey was from 12GBP to over 100GBP.