Expanding Amtrak Service in Texas

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

According to NARP 2014 data (http://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/trains_2014.pdf),

There are over 4 million people living within 25 miles of the Dallas, TX station but ridership at the station was just 49,446.

There are over 4 million people living within 25 miles of the Houston, TX station but ridership at the station was just 20,108.

Lack of trains is a problem. The Dallas station has just one daily train while Houston has one 3x/week train. By contrast, Washington had over 4 million riders. Now Washington is in the NEC with many large markets close to them. I wouldn't expect there to be as much service in Dallas or Houston as there is in DC but I would think there should be many more trains in the state of Texas. I look at Texas and see three large markets, the Texas Triangle of Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio, and think the three cities are close enough that train service between the three cities should be popular if they had more frequent service (currently 1x/day for DAL-SAS, 3x/week for SAS-HOS, and NOTHING for DAL-HOS). You want to travel from DAL to HOS? Go through SAS and stay overnight. Are you kidding me? In addition to the three large markets, you also have to consider Austin which is not only a good size market but is home to the University of Texas and there are many examples of trains being popular to college students. In addition the last time there actually was DAL-HOS service the route also served College Station-Bryan, TX near Texas A&M (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0031). I can't figure out why this route was even cut. I can't believe it wasn't popular.

Now any new service would have to be subsidized by the state of Texas. You may think that Texas won't pay for trains but Texas does help pay for the Heartland Flyer. I don't see why Texas DOT would pay for a train from Ft. Worth (not even Dallas) but not in-state trains between the Texas Triangle cities. I'd imagine the Heartland Flyer is more for passengers from Oklahoma to visit Texas than the other way around.

 

[bretton88]

According to NARP 2014 data (http://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/trains_2014.pdf),

There are over 4 million people living within 25 miles of the Dallas, TX station but ridership at the station was just 49,446.

There are over 4 million people living within 25 miles of the Houston, TX station but ridership at the station was just 20,108.

Lack of trains is a problem. The Dallas station has just one daily train while Houston has one 3x/week train. By contrast, Washington had over 4 million riders. Now Washington is in the NEC with many large markets close to them. I wouldn't expect there to be as much service in Dallas or Houston as there is in DC but I would think there should be many more trains in the state of Texas. I look at Texas and see three large markets, the Texas Triangle of Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio, and think the three cities are close enough that train service between the three cities should be popular if they had more frequent service (currently 1x/day for DAL-SAS, 3x/week for SAS-HOS, and NOTHING for DAL-HOS). You want to travel from DAL to HOS? Go through SAS and stay overnight. Are you kidding me? In addition to the three large markets, you also have to consider Austin which is not only a good size market but is home to the University of Texas and there are many examples of trains being popular to college students. In addition the last time there actually was DAL-HOS service the route also served College Station-Bryan, TX near Texas A&M (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0031). I can't figure out why this route was even cut. I can't believe it wasn't popular.

Now any new service would have to be subsidized by the state of Texas. You may think that Texas won't pay for trains but Texas does help pay for the Heartland Flyer. I don't see why Texas DOT would pay for a train from Ft. Worth (not even Dallas) but not in-state trains between the Texas Triangle cities. I'd imagine the Heartland Flyer is more for passengers from Oklahoma to visit Texas than the other way around.

Ahem. Texas Central Railway..... High speed rail to serve the cities.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Ahem. Texas Central Railway..... High speed rail to serve the cities.

That only takes care of Dallas to Houston. How about the rest of the state? Plus, will that train use the current Amtrak stations? if not, there is still a benefit to Amtrak running the route as well. Sure, if you want to go between the two cities, you want to go via Texas Central. What if you want to go from, say CHI to HOS? Travel to Dallas's Amtrak and find a way to get to the Texas Central station?

 

[west point]

Because of the ultimate in urban sprawl the ATL MSA within 25 miles is not very high but go 35 miles or 50 a different number. Georgia just loves its cars.

 

[cirdan]

Ahem. Texas Central Railway..... High speed rail to serve the cities.

That only takes care of Dallas to Houston. How about the rest of the state? Plus, will that train use the current Amtrak stations? if not, there is still a benefit to Amtrak running the route as well. Sure, if you want to go between the two cities, you want to go via Texas Central. What if you want to go from, say CHI to HOS? Travel to Dallas's Amtrak and find a way to get to the Texas Central station?

I understand that in Dallas, the Texas Central station will be close enough to the Amtrak one.

In Houston the situation is different, largely due to the difficulty in getting the ROW, but as far as I know discussions are still ongoing.

And remember, even if it doesn't go all theway from day one, this can be added later.

There is no better form of advocacy for high-speed trains than having one that works well for everybody to see and ride on. Texas Central could well turn into a game changer.

Sometimes the better can be the worst enemy of the good and I think its wrong to criticise something like Texas Central and maybe contribute to its failure which will mean ending up with nothing at all.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Cirdan makes an excellent point about the better being the enemy of the good!

Here in Austin the NIMBYs and the Tree Huggers teamed up with the Real Estate Interests and the Asphalt Lobby to defeat more Light Rail during a Very Light Turnout Special Election, and yet Traffic Gridlock continues to grow while everyone wrings their hands and looks for a Magic Cure!

Meanwhile the Metroplex ( Dallas and Ft Worth) continue to expand their Rail System @ a Rapid Rate so it can be done in Car Country!

 

[Palmetto]

Texas and Florida are quite similar to their approach to passenger rail: build roads and bridges. They also have UP and CXS to deal with. Let's also note that the UP just pulled out of the project to establish passenger rail between Georgetown and San Antonio. Absent building a dedicated ROW, I'm afraid passenger rail service in the Lone Star State is a non-starter for the most part. Down in Brownsville, the UP just rerouted its tracks away from the city. What does the Cameron County Mobility Authority want to do with the old roadbed? Build a toll road to one of the existing cross-border bridges.

See what I mean?

 

[cirdan]

Texas and Florida are quite similar to their approach to passenger rail: build roads and bridges. They also have UP and CXS to deal with. Let's also note that the UP just pulled out of the project to establish passenger rail between Georgetown and San Antonio. Absent building a dedicated ROW, I'm afraid passenger rail service in the Lone Star State is a non-starter for the most part. Down in Brownsville, the UP just rerouted its tracks away from the city. What does the Cameron County Mobility Authority want to do with the old roadbed? Build a toll road to one of the existing cross-border bridges.

See what I mean?

As a counter-example, I understand significant parts of DART re-use former disused railroad rights of way.

 

[jis]

Florida actually does have a state passenger rail plan, which is taking a bit of a hiatus because of our current goofy Governor, just like any preparation for dealing with rising sea levels is also taking a hiatus. I suspect things might change for the better in two years. The plan is actually quite practical, and unsurprisingly AAF is actually building exactly according to part of that plan.

Meanwhile CSX is busy trying to sell its properties to local authorities while keeping some trackage rights in Florida, and the local authorities though slow on the uptake seem to be at least mildly receptive to the idea. So we'll see how it goes.

I suspect the situation is somewhat different from this in Texas at large.

 

[Palmetto]

It is different for the instances you mention, but overall, I think there's a similarity in broad strokes.

Yes, Texas has a rail plan as well. Its original version was published in 2005. Practically nothing has been done to execute it, as far as I know. [i lived there until 2014]. TxDOT didn't even have a Rail Division until about three years ago. The last revision was two years ago.

Here in Miami, you may know that FDOT isn't exactly beating the door down to contribute to the enhanced Brightline Miami Central Station so as to be able to accomodate Tri-Rail trains.

 

[jis]

That is where the current Governor comes in. The folks at FDOT live in fear of their jobs should they even mention anything that goes counter to our Governor's world view.

From the state government's side it is almost guaranteed that no significant passenger rail initiative will materialize as long as the current Governor is around. Whatever happens will happen because of private or local initiatives.

 

[cirdan]

Florida actually does have a state passenger rail plan, which is taking a bit of a hiatus because of our current goofy Governor, just like any preparation for dealing with rising sea levels is also taking a hiatus. I suspect things might change for the better in two years. The plan is actually quite practical, and unsurprisingly AAF is actually building exactly according to part of that plan.

Meanwhile CSX is busy trying to sell its properties to local authorities while keeping some trackage rights in Florida, and the local authorities though slow on the uptake seem to be at least mildly receptive to the idea. So we'll see how it goes.

I suspect the situation is somewhat different from this in Texas at large.

I may be wrong, but I think Texas is also far more important railroadwise than Florida. Texas represents a major crossroads of high volume rail corridors. The potential disruption that can be caused by passenger rail is thus much larger. Florida is much more peripheral in comparison. This has an effect on the railroads preparedness to sell or share their ROW.

 

[jis]

I may be wrong, but I think Texas is also far more important railroadwise than Florida. Texas represents a major crossroads of high volume rail corridors. The potential disruption that can be caused by passenger rail is thus much larger. Florida is much more peripheral in comparison. This has an effect on the railroads preparedness to sell or share their ROW.

I actually have no problem agreeing with that. However, the sort of lines being sold in Florida are similar to the ones being sold in Texas for passenger operations. They are mainly local distribution links and not trunk routes without alternatives. As for Miami, CSX had poor access to the port compared to FEC and they have basically given up on that apparently, while FEC is expanding capacity to serve the port better.