The High Speed Rail Amendment passed in the last general election in Florida has just been nullified. I Guess we'll just go back to Jeb's plan to cover the entire state in asphalt and concrete.
Fla HS Rail Derailed
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AMTK@AUS
Train Attendant
Oh thats wonderful. I don't understand why people think the only way they can go anywhere is by driving a car, or should I say SUV. It seems like people would rather sit in traffic, or wait for construction for a freeway, than cruise at a much higher speed on a train. I'm not from florida, but from what I understand traffic on the interstates can get pretty heavy. (One of the Auto Train's advantages is to allow passengers to bypass the crowded highway)
Here in Austin, we have been trying to pass a commuter rail system for twenty years. It kept getting voted down until the city threatened to make every freeway in Austin a toll road. They even drew up a bunch of plans, etc. and it worked - light rail passed last night. Its good news, but I don't think that its going to bring many people off the road besides the ones who see what a problem traffic is causing.
Dallas had a difficult time with their DART light rail system when it first started, but now it carries millions of passengers each year. Successful mass transit is what this country needs, and it might not be until gas prices are $5.00 that people realize it.
Here in Austin, we have been trying to pass a commuter rail system for twenty years. It kept getting voted down until the city threatened to make every freeway in Austin a toll road. They even drew up a bunch of plans, etc. and it worked - light rail passed last night. Its good news, but I don't think that its going to bring many people off the road besides the ones who see what a problem traffic is causing.
Dallas had a difficult time with their DART light rail system when it first started, but now it carries millions of passengers each year. Successful mass transit is what this country needs, and it might not be until gas prices are $5.00 that people realize it.
Well said AMTK@AUS. A new light rail in Austin would be great. The problem people think, the minute it is finished, it will take off traffic from the roads, so then they don't want it. Rail is the solution over a LONG period of time. One may argue that Austin or Dallas or Houston or whereever is not like New York, to have a big rail system. Yet they forget to realize, New York or Chicago's density happened because of rail, not the other way around! Thats what I hope to see with Austin, Dallas and Houston in the next 20 to 30 years; an implosion of people in the city, instead of people continuing to sprawl out driving their Hummers and SUV's.
AMTK@AUS
Train Attendant
Same to you, Saxman.
Did you ever hear about the planned high speed rail corridor along IH-35 a few years back? I believe it was supposed to stretch from Ft. Worth, through Dallas, down to San Antonio and maybe even to Houston. Now THAT would be something else!
Edit: I found some info on that HSRail corridor at http://www.thsrtc.com/.
Did you ever hear about the planned high speed rail corridor along IH-35 a few years back? I believe it was supposed to stretch from Ft. Worth, through Dallas, down to San Antonio and maybe even to Houston. Now THAT would be something else!
Edit: I found some info on that HSRail corridor at http://www.thsrtc.com/.
The old fly/drive mentality takes over on this one: "We want to drive because ya don't have to pay to use the roads." "Ya know, nobody rides da trains." " It'll never make money, instead it'll be a taxpayer boondoggle." Etc. etc.
Meanwhile, Amtrak is on track to have its highest ridership this FY ever. Lookes like folks are riding the trains - and they will pay for them, its just that we are so accustomed to the way things are right now, and can't imagine anything different. The highway and airport lobbies have forced us into thinking that there is no other way. News flash - when the trains are funded properly (for example California), people will ride them, even when they have to get on during the small hours of the morning. Taxpayer boondoggle? then why are there so many initiatives about commuter rail across our nation? another reason why it don't make money is that every form of transport is subsidized one way or another. Can you imagine what the airlines would look like if they had to purchase and pay for out of their own (private) pockets for the airports? What would the airports look like if each airline had to buy and maintain its own airport? And not paying to use the roads? Ever heard of the Gas Taxes? or tollways? When was the last time the Interstate System turned a profit? oh, wait-it isn't designed to do that.
/end Rant/ I regret that I got on a tangent regarding this topic. It's just that it is so disappointing to see folks misled into making such a short-sighted choice. Do they think that they just have to build themselves out of congestion? :angry:
Meanwhile, Amtrak is on track to have its highest ridership this FY ever. Lookes like folks are riding the trains - and they will pay for them, its just that we are so accustomed to the way things are right now, and can't imagine anything different. The highway and airport lobbies have forced us into thinking that there is no other way. News flash - when the trains are funded properly (for example California), people will ride them, even when they have to get on during the small hours of the morning. Taxpayer boondoggle? then why are there so many initiatives about commuter rail across our nation? another reason why it don't make money is that every form of transport is subsidized one way or another. Can you imagine what the airlines would look like if they had to purchase and pay for out of their own (private) pockets for the airports? What would the airports look like if each airline had to buy and maintain its own airport? And not paying to use the roads? Ever heard of the Gas Taxes? or tollways? When was the last time the Interstate System turned a profit? oh, wait-it isn't designed to do that.
/end Rant/ I regret that I got on a tangent regarding this topic. It's just that it is so disappointing to see folks misled into making such a short-sighted choice. Do they think that they just have to build themselves out of congestion? :angry:
In large part, this is a chicken vs. egg argument. Jeb argues there wouldn't be enough ridership to make it viable. And if we did build it, there wouldn't be enough money left for him to cover the rest of the State with asphalt and concrete, which is apparently the plan. And he's right to one extent - if they don't build it, there is absolutely not to be enough people riding it.
/begin rant/
It's stupid and shortsighted, especially since the feds would pay for a good bit of it to be built. Do we wait until we have exhausted the world's supply of oil (and every last penny in our wallets) driving Hummers and huge SUVs, and refuse to look at the fact that rail actually does work in other areas of the world (and even, for instance, in SE Florida), and simply say that since we intend to "pave paradise and put up a parking lot", we can't afford the money to build a decent pax rail system? At the rate we're going, our kids or grandkids are going to run out of oil entirely, and it will happen a hundred years sooner that it would have if we had mandated much higher gas mileage on all vehicles, applied a huge surcharge to the purchase of vehicles that didn't meet that mileage, and subsidize a genuine countrywide mass transit that worked well. But apparently since that alternative is perceived by (guess who?) to be bad for big business, our government won't even consider the possibility of doing it, so like lemmings we are headed for the cliff. And I suppose the Washington spin on that is that it's not the fall off the cliff that hurts ya - it's the sudden stop at the bottom, and we'll give ya an airbag for that.
So until we can put a lobbyist in Washington with deeper pockets than the big business lobbyists, forget HS rail or anything else (like protecting the environment) that would be perceived as a threat by big business.
One question, though: How come if you are a lobbyist, it's not called a BRIBE?
/end rant/
/begin rant/
It's stupid and shortsighted, especially since the feds would pay for a good bit of it to be built. Do we wait until we have exhausted the world's supply of oil (and every last penny in our wallets) driving Hummers and huge SUVs, and refuse to look at the fact that rail actually does work in other areas of the world (and even, for instance, in SE Florida), and simply say that since we intend to "pave paradise and put up a parking lot", we can't afford the money to build a decent pax rail system? At the rate we're going, our kids or grandkids are going to run out of oil entirely, and it will happen a hundred years sooner that it would have if we had mandated much higher gas mileage on all vehicles, applied a huge surcharge to the purchase of vehicles that didn't meet that mileage, and subsidize a genuine countrywide mass transit that worked well. But apparently since that alternative is perceived by (guess who?) to be bad for big business, our government won't even consider the possibility of doing it, so like lemmings we are headed for the cliff. And I suppose the Washington spin on that is that it's not the fall off the cliff that hurts ya - it's the sudden stop at the bottom, and we'll give ya an airbag for that.
So until we can put a lobbyist in Washington with deeper pockets than the big business lobbyists, forget HS rail or anything else (like protecting the environment) that would be perceived as a threat by big business.
One question, though: How come if you are a lobbyist, it's not called a BRIBE?
/end rant/
Yes I have seen the HS rail plan in Texas. It's pretty impressive. One of guys on the board of that use to go to church with me. He is very pro-rail around the North Texas region as I have seen his name a couple other times.
I wish Wendel Cox or Jim Skaggs could come in our forums. They are huge anti-rail activists saying rail never works and always fails. Cox is apparently a person who studies transportation and movement of people and demographics. I have no idea how he gets his crazy statistics and somehow turns them into some backwards way of pointing how rail is not the answer. For example, "Capitol Metro in Austin touts that they carry 100,000 persons per day. (i just pulled that number from midair, can't remember what it actually is) But wait! It's not really 100,000 people. Most of those people make transfers to another bus, so that cuts the number to really 50,000. But wait! Most of those people ride round trip. So thats really 25,000. And 25,000 is hardly a dent in the Austin/Round Rock area. So therefore Cap Metro is lieing!"
Thats what you here alot about mass transit. Thats like saying only 3% of the population in Texas drives on I-45, or whatever. Or an airport that touts 70 million passengers per year. But wait, alota those people travel through that same airport more than once and many of them on round trips. So that's really 20 million passengers per year.
But anyways, I'll quit ranting. (not to get off topic)
Chris
I wish Wendel Cox or Jim Skaggs could come in our forums. They are huge anti-rail activists saying rail never works and always fails. Cox is apparently a person who studies transportation and movement of people and demographics. I have no idea how he gets his crazy statistics and somehow turns them into some backwards way of pointing how rail is not the answer. For example, "Capitol Metro in Austin touts that they carry 100,000 persons per day. (i just pulled that number from midair, can't remember what it actually is) But wait! It's not really 100,000 people. Most of those people make transfers to another bus, so that cuts the number to really 50,000. But wait! Most of those people ride round trip. So thats really 25,000. And 25,000 is hardly a dent in the Austin/Round Rock area. So therefore Cap Metro is lieing!"
Thats what you here alot about mass transit. Thats like saying only 3% of the population in Texas drives on I-45, or whatever. Or an airport that touts 70 million passengers per year. But wait, alota those people travel through that same airport more than once and many of them on round trips. So that's really 20 million passengers per year.
But anyways, I'll quit ranting. (not to get off topic)
Chris
tourlink99
Train Attendant
Did anyone who voted in Florida notice that it was written right on the ballot that high speed would cost the taxpayers $25 BILLION! Talk about one sided info! :blink:
Back to the election, and the lies they told to get their objectives met, I think the single most maddening and disgusting thing about this past election was that all of the ads from the major parties and the major candidates LIED. ALL of them. This election was one where the TRUTH never had a chance. This has turned into a system where whoever tells the biggest collection of whoppers and spends the most on advertising wins. Take a look at http://www.factcheck.org for more information. That's a nonpartisan org that made it it's business to look at the major party/candidate ads and dissect the allegations contained therein (I won't dignify the content by calling it "facts"), and then reporting on the (in)accuracy of those allegations. They ALL lied. It's too bad we don't have public floggings any more.
A
Amtrak OBS Employee
Guest
If I may add a bit of my opinion here, I am dissappointed with the fact this has been repealed, too. However, all this does is remove it from the state constitution as a mandatory undertaking. This doesn't mean the train still can't be built! It is just gonna make a bit tougher to get it started. We need to band together in a different fashion, and make it known to our governor and legislature that the we the citizens want high speed rail! I would be happy if there was any sort of rail infrastructure being proposed for our state. I would absolutely love it if we had something similar to the Northeast Corridor or California here in our great state of Florida!
The only way I see to make our state government "really" know what we want, is too take drastic action. And that is give us the results we are asking them to do, or we will vote them out and put those in office who will! The only way I see to do that is for all Floridians to unite on this matter! Sadly I don't see that happening that way anytime soon, if ever! I have never felt the train issue belonged in the state constitution, actually. But if that is what it takes, then when it appears again, I will support it (especially if Amtrak may be involved in some way)!
The only way I see to make our state government "really" know what we want, is too take drastic action. And that is give us the results we are asking them to do, or we will vote them out and put those in office who will! The only way I see to do that is for all Floridians to unite on this matter! Sadly I don't see that happening that way anytime soon, if ever! I have never felt the train issue belonged in the state constitution, actually. But if that is what it takes, then when it appears again, I will support it (especially if Amtrak may be involved in some way)!
I would love more mass transit, HSR, anything to reduce congestion.
But, I want to know the all the facts before any money is spent. Miami just passed a bill that allots 1 million dollars for the study of a tunnel to the Port of Miami. When you read the fine print, it says that Miami can do whatever they want with the money and it doesn't have to be spent on the study! :blink: You gotta love the way these things are written on ballots. Even the HSR's writing was confusing! <_<
The HSR was going to be so expensive to build and maintain, the fare was comparable to an airplane ticket.
The first leg was to be from Tampa to Orlando. With high fares, I didn't see this being used as a low cost alternative for workers travelling to work. So, who was going to fill the cars?
Tri-Rail and MetroRail have never been able to come close to the projected ridership quotas! Miami-Dade got the transit tax and now say it wasn't enough and wants to add another tax.
Somebody's getting rich off these projects! The question is who??? :angry:
MJ B)
But, I want to know the all the facts before any money is spent. Miami just passed a bill that allots 1 million dollars for the study of a tunnel to the Port of Miami. When you read the fine print, it says that Miami can do whatever they want with the money and it doesn't have to be spent on the study! :blink: You gotta love the way these things are written on ballots. Even the HSR's writing was confusing! <_<
The HSR was going to be so expensive to build and maintain, the fare was comparable to an airplane ticket.
The first leg was to be from Tampa to Orlando. With high fares, I didn't see this being used as a low cost alternative for workers travelling to work. So, who was going to fill the cars?
Tri-Rail and MetroRail have never been able to come close to the projected ridership quotas! Miami-Dade got the transit tax and now say it wasn't enough and wants to add another tax.
Somebody's getting rich off these projects! The question is who??? :angry:
MJ B)
battalion51
Engineer
I disagree on Tri-Rail ridership. The Tri-Rail trains have pretty good ridership. I have had trouble finding a seat on several ocassions during both rush and non-rush hours. The Double Tracking can only boost ridership since there will be more frequencies and better reliability.
A
Amtrak OBS Employee
Guest
Joe, I have to agree with battalion on this one! When I was working out of MIA crewbase a couple years ago, and while frequenting the area I used the Tri-Rail system some (a couple of times to ride to work). It always seemed as if there were a lot of people on the trains, especially between FTL and the airport. I have had trouble finding a seat on it myself in the peak times, too.
As for the HSP deal though, I can agree with you here. As a native Floridian and still a current resident, I would just like to see better rail alternatives as a whole statewide, myself. Even if HSR isn't even in consideration, something similar to the California situation, or even the state deal between North Carolina, Amtrak, and the NS would be better than nothing at all.
As for the HSP deal though, I can agree with you here. As a native Floridian and still a current resident, I would just like to see better rail alternatives as a whole statewide, myself. Even if HSR isn't even in consideration, something similar to the California situation, or even the state deal between North Carolina, Amtrak, and the NS would be better than nothing at all.
I think the state would be best upgrading current rail lines and then creating semi highspeed rail service. Maybe implementing talgo trains or a bilevel fleet like they use in CA. Rightnow I think a commuterrail system in Central Florida would be best. Possible create a spur to the airport, if I rember the csx line gose close to it.
battalion51
Engineer
I definitely think Commuter Rail service from at least Sanford (Deland would be great) down to Kissimmee would be great. As far as the airport is concerned, I would try to set up DMU's on the Stanton Spur out to the airport. Set up meets at the connection station just South of Taft Yard and you're set.
I know what your talking about. The originol plan for commuter rail was to have a DLD-KIS corridor and then a Northern corridor on FLCentral tracks. In deland they could build the commuter station off of the small branch line. That way the parking lot can be off of a major road.battalion51 said:
All the governmental entities and special interests along the whole corridor bickered and fought, and in the end could not agree on a route, or station locations, for commuter rail, and in the resultant foot-dragging and stupid arguments they lost the money that would have been available for it. "If I can't have what I want, I will keep you from getting what YOU want!" And they did just that. Typical.
