Florida Short Trips

[Green Maned Lion]

Thats right!

 

[Rail Freak]

Thats right!

Now I'm gonna get real picky, how bout St Pete to Sarasota roundtrip? :huh:

 

[AmtrakWPK]

According to the Amtrak Reservations website, you cannot book the thruway bus independent of a rail segment. So you could not do a TPA-Sarasota, or Sarasota-Ft. Myers one way or round trip. It MUST include a segment of travel by rail. Presumably that would also apply to the railpass.

What "Book With Train" Means
In certain circumstances, state law requires that trips booked on Amtrak.com include at least one segment where you travel by train (rather than by Thruway bus).

If you select a segment marked with the text "Book With Train", you must also select at least one other segment of your trip where you travel by train.

We apologize for any inconvenience. For additional assistance, please call 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).

When you try to select a TPA-Sarasota thruway bus trip, it includes the "book with train" requirement, so you can't book it by itself.

Unless you want to talk to a station agent or the 800 Amtrak number and specifically ask, my best guess is that you cannot use the pass for bus-only travel. Where I find that problematic is if you wanted to travel between, say, Lakeland and Ocala, which is a bus segment that has replaced the Silver Palm / Palmetto route. Technically that is a station pair that you used to be able to travel on the Palmetto. But if you try to book just the bus from TPA to Ocala, or Lakeland to Ocala, you find that TPA-Ocala does not exist as an available route, and Lakeland-Ocala requires a "book with train". So apparently Amtrak is not allowed to handle passengers within Florida by bus alone - they MUST include a rail travel segment. For instance, I can book Winter Haven-Ocala, which means Winter Haven to Lakeland on 92 and then the bus to Ocala. But Lakeland to Ocala per se is not something you can book. Another quirk in the Amtrak system is that you CANNOT book Lakeland-TPA or TPA-Lakeland. They will not sell you a ticket for that rail segment, in either direction. If you are on 92, you can get off at Lakeland on the way TO Tampa but you can NOT get off at Lakeland on the way FROM Tampa. On 91, you can get off at Lakeland on the way TO Tampa, but you can NOT get off at Lakeland on the way FROM Tampa.

For those reading this that are scratching their heads, trains 91/92 make a dog-leg; Northbound on 92 from Miami, after Winter Haven (WTH) it goes west through Lakeland, turns around at TPA, comes back east through Lakeland again, and then heads on north through the Orlando corridor and eventually to New York. 91 (originating in New York) comes south through the Orlando corridor, then west through Lakeland, turns around at Tampa, comes back east through Lakeland again, and then heads south to Winter Haven and eventually through to Miami.

They do this because the Silver Palm (later the Palmetto without the sleepers) used to run from Miami up through Winter Haven,west through to Tampa, then up north in the center of the State, including Wildwood, Ocala, Waldo (east of Gainesville, home of U.F. Gators) and on up to Jax and eventually New York. It did NOT serve the Orlando corridor. That route, as I understand it, was primarily run to handle bulk mail for the Post Office, and Amtrak decided the Mail contract wasn't worth the hassle, so they stopped carrying mail through there and truncated the Palmetto to the current New York - Savannah route. They then realized they had shot themselves in the foot because Tampa was a high passenger-count station and they had just left it high and dry except for a bus connection, and they decided to add the dog-leg to the Silver Star (91/92) so that Tampa would continue to have genuine rail service.

For Orlando-corridor residents, (like us) this is great, because it gives us Orlando-Tampa-Orlando rail service that did not exist.

 

[Rail Freak]

According to the Amtrak Reservations website, you cannot book the thruway bus independent of a rail segment. So you could not do a TPA-Sarasota, or Sarasota-Ft. Myers one way or round trip. It MUST include a segment of travel by rail. Presumably that would also apply to the railpass.

What "Book With Train" Means
In certain circumstances, state law requires that trips booked on Amtrak.com include at least one segment where you travel by train (rather than by Thruway bus).

If you select a segment marked with the text "Book With Train", you must also select at least one other segment of your trip where you travel by train.

We apologize for any inconvenience. For additional assistance, please call 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).

When you try to select a TPA-Sarasota thruway bus trip, it includes the "book with train" requirement, so you can't book it by itself.

Unless you want to talk to a station agent or the 800 Amtrak number and specifically ask, my best guess is that you cannot use the pass for bus-only travel. Where I find that problematic is if you wanted to travel between, say, Lakeland and Ocala, which is a bus segment that has replaced the Silver Palm / Palmetto route. Technically that is a station pair that you used to be able to travel on the Palmetto. But if you try to book just the bus from TPA to Ocala, or Lakeland to Ocala, you find that TPA-Ocala does not exist as an available route, and Lakeland-Ocala requires a "book with train". So apparently Amtrak is not allowed to handle passengers within Florida by bus alone - they MUST include a rail travel segment. For instance, I can book Winter Haven-Ocala, which means Winter Haven to Lakeland on 92 and then the bus to Ocala. But Lakeland to Ocala per se is not something you can book. Another quirk in the Amtrak system is that you CANNOT book Lakeland-TPA or TPA-Lakeland. They will not sell you a ticket for that rail segment, in either direction. If you are on 92, you can get off at Lakeland on the way TO Tampa but you can NOT get off at Lakeland on the way FROM Tampa. On 91, you can get off at Lakeland on the way TO Tampa, but you can NOT get off at Lakeland on the way FROM Tampa.

For those reading this that are scratching their heads, trains 91/92 make a dog-leg; Northbound on 92 from Miami, after Winter Haven (WTH) it goes west through Lakeland, turns around at TPA, comes back east through Lakeland again, and then heads on north through the Orlando corridor and eventually to New York. 91 (originating in New York) comes south through the Orlando corridor, then west through Lakeland, turns around at Tampa, comes back east through Lakeland again, and then heads south to Winter Haven and eventually through to Miami.

They do this because the Silver Palm (later the Palmetto without the sleepers) used to run from Miami up through Winter Haven,west through to Tampa, then up north in the center of the State, including Wildwood, Ocala, Waldo (east of Gainesville, home of U.F. Gators) and on up to Jax and eventually New York. It did NOT serve the Orlando corridor. That route, as I understand it, was primarily run to handle bulk mail for the Post Office, and Amtrak decided the Mail contract wasn't worth the hassle, so they stopped carrying mail through there and truncated the Palmetto to the current New York - Savannah route. They then realized they had shot themselves in the foot because Tampa was a high passenger-count station and they had just left it high and dry except for a bus connection, and they decided to add the dog-leg to the Silver Star (91/92) so that Tampa would continue to have genuine rail service.

For Orlando-corridor residents, (like us) this is great, because it gives us Orlando-Tampa-Orlando rail service that did not exist.

For those reading this that are scratching their heads, trains 91/92 make a dog-leg; Northbound on 92 from Miami, after Winter Haven (WTH) it goes west through Lakeland, turns around at TPA, comes back east through Lakeland again, and then heads on north through the Orlando corridor and eventually to New York. 91 (originating in New York) comes south through the Orlando corridor, then west through Lakeland, turns around at Tampa, comes back east through Lakeland again, and then heads south to Winter Haven and eventually through to Miami.

Thanks for that, I was one of those scratching my head!!!

RAIL FREAK

edited to add quote symbols - AmtrakWPK

 

[p&sr]

According to the Amtrak Reservations website, you cannot book the thruway bus independent of a rail segment. So you could not do a TPA-Sarasota, or Sarasota-Ft. Myers one way or round trip. It MUST include a segment of travel by rail. Presumably that would also apply to the railpass.

How about if you book from Miami or Orlando through Tampa to Sarasota or Ft. Myers?

Surely that ticket (train plus bus) could be issued, and "free" with the Railpass.

Then what if you just happen not to use all of the tickets you were issued?

 

[Rail Freak]

According to the Amtrak Reservations website, you cannot book the thruway bus independent of a rail segment. So you could not do a TPA-Sarasota, or Sarasota-Ft. Myers one way or round trip. It MUST include a segment of travel by rail. Presumably that would also apply to the railpass.

How about if you book from Miami or Orlando through Tampa to Sarasota or Ft. Myers?

Surely that ticket (train plus bus) could be issued, and "free" with the Railpass.

Then what if you just happen not to use all of the tickets you were issued?

This like being a rookie with a new play book!!!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

IIRC, the Florida Pass is not a booked service, so I can't imagine how they could enforce the Thruway rules.

 

[Rail Freak]

IIRC, the Florida Pass is not a booked service, so I can't imagine how they could enforce the Thruway rules.

What does IIRC mean?

 

[MrFSS]

What does IIRC mean?

If I Remember Correctly

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

For Orlando-corridor residents, (like us) this is great, because it gives us Orlando-Tampa-Orlando rail service that did not exist.

Actually, it restored the lucrative ORL-TPA-ORL service that we once had! The A-line traditionally has carried the bulk of the TPA West Coast of FL bound traffic, and the S-line traditionally carried more MIA traffic (both respectably at the stops further South of JAX). Back when I used to work the "Palmetto" on that S-line, I rarely boarded any passengers South of JAX who were going to TPA and LAK. I would still get them at JAX, but at WDO, OCA, WWD, DDE the bulk of the passenger count was for WPB - MIA with a handful to WTH, SBG, and OKE. But when I worked the "Metoer" and the "Star," it was very common from JAX, PAK, DLD, SFD (in the old days), WPK, ORL, and KIS to board multitudes of passengers heading for LAK and TPA areas in addition to further South (even when the A-line only had the throughway bus at ORL)! I mean we provided service to TPA for the passengers comeing to and from up in the Northeast, VA, GA, and the Carolinas. Now it is even better that we provide the "actual" TPA and LAK business with a "train" in addition to that!!! What a concept?!!! :lol:

OBS gone freight...

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Of course the time of day when the Star and Meteor come through Orlando is a lot more civilized than the middle-of-the-night Silver Palm/Palmetto was, and I suspect that had something to do with it as well. But we're still very happy to once again have service direct from the Orlando Corridor to Tampa, especially with the later 92 schedule change that gives us several hours in Tampa for a day trip. It's been a long time since that service existed.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

Of course the time of day when the Star and Meteor come through Orlando is a lot more civilized than the middle-of-the-night Silver Palm/Palmetto was, and I suspect that had something to do with it as well. But we're still very happy to once again have service direct from the Orlando Corridor to Tampa, especially with the later 92 schedule change that gives us several hours in Tampa for a day trip. It's been a long time since that service existed.

True. I am sure that schedule had someting to do with it as well. But even when the S-line was served with daylight service with connections at WTH for the FL West Coast, there never really was a large market for TPA area on the S-line since the begining of and during Amtrak's days. Now OTH back in the day, ACL had a good FL West Coast business with some of its trackage on that side of the state. But still the largest amount of the long distance traffic was routed via the current A-line. Now the SAL sped majority of its traffic towards the MIA area with a small amount of traffic bound for the West Coast. In which I still say it was a sin for CSX to pull the route of the old "Meteor" up via between Coleman and Aurburndale straight through to WTH-MIA.

OBS Gone Freight...

 

[yoohoo]

I recently contacted the FL. Department of Transportation to inquire about when passenger rail service would be continued in the panhandle and west coast area. This was their response:

Amtrak travel between the two cities (Orlando and Pensacola). Please visit their Web site:http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServe...Amtrak/HomePage

Are they kidding me?? How could the state's own DOT not know there hasnt been rail service in the area for the last 3 years now!!!!

 

[yoohoo]

And after I corrected them, this was their followup response:

Must have been an old map. To my knowledge DOT has no plans for passenger rail service.

:blink:

 

[George Harris]

In which I still say it was a sin for CSX to pull the route of the old "Meteor" up via between Coleman and Aurburndale straight through to WTH-MIA.

The lack of this route is why changing the freight trains from the A Line to the S Line as part of the Orlando Commuter service puts them going through Lakeland. If it were still in place, the diverted freight trains would never get witnin hearing distance of Lakeland.

The combo of Lakeland and the Florida Vulture Association - trial lawyers that is - looks like they might be able to kill or significantly delay the commuter service.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Actually it's not the lawyers as much as a member of the state senate and the Lakeland businesses that were the (hopefully and probably) temporary impediment to finalizing the Orlando corridor commuter rail project. The state senator from the Lakeland had, as his pet project, the HSR corridor Tampa-ORL, and when that got scuttled, his primary goal vis-a-vis the Orlando commuter rail project was revenge, at least that seemed to be the general idea I got while speaking with quite a number of the large crowd of rail folks at TUS on May 10 national train day. This was his way, assisted with Lakeland businesses that didn't like the idea of greatly increased freight traffic through downtown Lakeland (and if I was in their shoes I would have to admit that argument has some merit) of sticking his own knife in the back of the folks he considered had stuck one in his with the death of his pet HSR project in Florida. Liability is really a side issue that got a lot more publicity than it really merited. This is currently more of a tit-for-tat petty politics feud, apparently, than anything else.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

And as another confusing followup to the Florida Amtrak subject, apparently the system will not allow booking Orlando Corridor travel directly to Ocala, Gainesville, etc. It won't let me book ORL-OCA or WPK-OCA. But MIA-OCA is ok, or even WTH-OCA. And WPK-WTH-OCA multi-city works (same day), so you have to wonder why WPK-OCA directly isn't allowed by the reservations system. WPK-WTH-Lakeland-GNF works.

Oddly enough, even though the system won't allow WPK-GNF (Gainesville), it WILL allow that actual direct path, multi-city, of WPK-Lakeland-GNF (same day). I suspect the problem is that since they allocated two different station labels , LAK and LKL, to Lakeland, and the arriving and departing symbols are different depending on train direction, the system can't figure out it's the same place for purposes of connecting the bus to it. I can't book Winter Park to Ocala or Winter Park to Gainesville, but I CAN book Winter Park-Lakeland and Lakeland-Ocala (or Gainesville) on the same day, which would be the same defacto trip as Winter Park - Ocala (or Gainesville) . Go figure.

I just sent Amtrak a web site feedback form on that, and on the fact that they still do not show the thruway Lakeland-OCA-GNF- etc as included on the Florida Railpass, and I suspect it actually is, or certainly should be, included.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

One more follow-up on the Florida Railpass. It does, I am now told, include the thruway bus up through Ocala, Gainesville, etc., to JAX. The web site says otherwise but the Support Desk (referred from "Agent" ) says that even though the web site says otherwise, that bus should be included. He also agreed that it looks like that page has not been updated and corrected since the Palmetto was truncated to SAV. And that person also gave me an address to write to concerning the reservation system's inability (or refusal) to book ORL-OCA or WPK-OCA, even though it will allow ORL-WTH-OCA or ORL-Lakeland-OCA, on the same day, which is in fact the same connection. I really think the reservation system is flummoxed by the dual-station-ID of Lakeland and can't quite figure out how to connect an incoming passenger on 91 into Lakeland to the bus to OCA or Gainesville, etc.

 

[Mrs Bray]

How about a trip report from the Original Post Author? I'm getting ready to travel round trip Tampa-Jax, and want to know the details. Did you find a clean safe place to stay? How was the parking in Tampa?

Thanks a bunch

Everyone's Favorite School Bus Driver,

Mrs Bray

 

[blueman271]

According to the Amtrak Reservations website, you cannot book the thruway bus independent of a rail segment. So you could not do a TPA-Sarasota, or Sarasota-Ft. Myers one way or round trip. It MUST include a segment of travel by rail. Presumably that would also apply to the railpass.

What "Book With Train" Means
In certain circumstances, state law requires that trips booked on Amtrak.com include at least one segment where you travel by train (rather than by Thruway bus).

If you select a segment marked with the text "Book With Train", you must also select at least one other segment of your trip where you travel by train.

We apologize for any inconvenience. For additional assistance, please call 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).

When you try to select a TPA-Sarasota thruway bus trip, it includes the "book with train" requirement, so you can't book it by itself.

Unless you want to talk to a station agent or the 800 Amtrak number and specifically ask, my best guess is that you cannot use the pass for bus-only travel. Where I find that problematic is if you wanted to travel between, say, Lakeland and Ocala, which is a bus segment that has replaced the Silver Palm / Palmetto route. Technically that is a station pair that you used to be able to travel on the Palmetto. But if you try to book just the bus from TPA to Ocala, or Lakeland to Ocala, you find that TPA-Ocala does not exist as an available route, and Lakeland-Ocala requires a "book with train". So apparently Amtrak is not allowed to handle passengers within Florida by bus alone - they MUST include a rail travel segment. For instance, I can book Winter Haven-Ocala, which means Winter Haven to Lakeland on 92 and then the bus to Ocala. But Lakeland to Ocala per se is not something you can book. Another quirk in the Amtrak system is that you CANNOT book Lakeland-TPA or TPA-Lakeland. They will not sell you a ticket for that rail segment, in either direction. If you are on 92, you can get off at Lakeland on the way TO Tampa but you can NOT get off at Lakeland on the way FROM Tampa. On 91, you can get off at Lakeland on the way TO Tampa, but you can NOT get off at Lakeland on the way FROM Tampa.

For those reading this that are scratching their heads, trains 91/92 make a dog-leg; Northbound on 92 from Miami, after Winter Haven (WTH) it goes west through Lakeland, turns around at TPA, comes back east through Lakeland again, and then heads on north through the Orlando corridor and eventually to New York. 91 (originating in New York) comes south through the Orlando corridor, then west through Lakeland, turns around at Tampa, comes back east through Lakeland again, and then heads south to Winter Haven and eventually through to Miami.

They do this because the Silver Palm (later the Palmetto without the sleepers) used to run from Miami up through Winter Haven,west through to Tampa, then up north in the center of the State, including Wildwood, Ocala, Waldo (east of Gainesville, home of U.F. Gators) and on up to Jax and eventually New York. It did NOT serve the Orlando corridor. That route, as I understand it, was primarily run to handle bulk mail for the Post Office, and Amtrak decided the Mail contract wasn't worth the hassle, so they stopped carrying mail through there and truncated the Palmetto to the current New York - Savannah route. They then realized they had shot themselves in the foot because Tampa was a high passenger-count station and they had just left it high and dry except for a bus connection, and they decided to add the dog-leg to the Silver Star (91/92) so that Tampa would continue to have genuine rail service.

For Orlando-corridor residents, (like us) this is great, because it gives us Orlando-Tampa-Orlando rail service that did not exist.

What are the chances of Amtrak splitting the Star or the Meteor in Jacksonville and running the Tampa section through Orlando and the Miami section through Wildwood/Ocala. I know they used to do this before the Palm was introduced as I vividly remember watching the switching operation several times in Jax when I was a little boy.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

They ran the Palm/Palmetto route (Jax southwest thru waldo, ocala, wildwood, to Tampa and then south etc) primarily to handle U.S. Mail through there. When they decided to cancel that contract, they truncated Palmetto back to SAV and then added the dogleg over to Tampa and back onto the Star's route to restore service to Tampa that was lost when they truncated Palmetto. There is a strong move on to begin an Orlando-commuter-train-corridor (Deland through Orlando to south of Kissimmee, using the existing CSX track), and CSX is planning much heavier freight traffic on the old S-Line (the old Palm/Palmetto route past Ocala), by rerouting a lot of the existing freight traffic that runs through Orlando, so I don't think trying to start running passenger trains through on the S-Line would work very well at that point as far as OTP is concerned.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

so I don't think trying to start running passenger trains through on the S-Line would work very well at that point as far as OTP is concerned.

But on a high note, at least Amtrak still maintains rights to that trackage should they ever want to restore train service. Anytime soon? That is doubtful, but it is still possible as long as there is an "active" Amtrak service over there in place of the original operation.

OBS gone freight...

 

[Guest]

So thanks for all the help. I found the free parking at Tampa, took the bus to Orlando, and boarded the train there. It was an uneventful ride with short stops in Winter Park, Deland, and Palatka. 7 miles from the station in Jacksonville some MORON decided to drive his pickup truck around the crossing gates and managed to get nailed by train 98 heading into Jacksonville.

Totally looking forward to the ride home in a few days and checking the condition of my rag top, left with a prayer in the (sort-of) secure parking in Tampa.

And no, I really doubt there are any "nice" hotels or motels around the Jacksonville AmTrak station.

Everyone's Favorite Bus Driver,

Mrs Bray

 

[RedQueen]

There is a strong move on to begin an Orlando-commuter-train-corridor (Deland through Orlando to south of Kissimmee, using the existing CSX track), and CSX is planning much heavier freight traffic on the old S-Line (the old Palm/Palmetto route past Ocala), by rerouting a lot of the existing freight traffic that runs through Orlando, so I don't think trying to start running passenger trains through on the S-Line would work very well at that point as far as OTP is concerned.

Is this as opposed to running a light rail (in conjunction with Lynx) down the I-4 corridor? Are there plans for stops at the parks? I know one of the big issues with the (now-dead) bullet train was Disney's requirement that either the bullet train stopped ONLY at Disney and not on I-Drive, or not at Disney at all. <_<

We do need better intrastate train service - covering from Miami to Orlando, sidebar to Tampa, and up to Jax and Tally.... (maybe with a stop for Gainesville; hit the major universities to get kids back and forth!) B)

PS - taking my first Amtrak trip in 5 years tomorrow, WPB to KIS. Wish me luck!