Gateway Project/New York Penn Station capacity improvement

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

The thing the through-runners don't get is capacity. These are the three busiest commuter railroads in the North America (incl. Mexico) and LIRR alone caries more than triple Chicago, the 4th. Unless peak surges disappear, you have to consider that capacity has a factor of distance. You can't send a morning train from LI to Perth Amboy NJ and get it back in time for more inbound trips from LI. Everything is running at max. And both NJT and LIRR only have one tunnel available going the anti-peak direction. The LIRR surge is impressive - 3 tunnels. Meanwhile in a decade from now when NJT gets 4 tunnels, that will all be taken up by unloading the packed monkey cages of NJT trains into more trains. (The reason it wouldn't work even if all trains had the same electrical system is that a portion of LIRR trains have to hole up in the West Side Yards to make it all work with only one tunnel anti-peak.)

The other issues are important - like is through-running being used as a stalking horse for NIMBY-ism, but this technical one is the one many people seem not to understand, sincerely or not. Now to get more subjective, calling the potential Penn South station area (not the Penn South co-ops in Chelsea, by the way) "Midtown" may conjure images of tall buildings. It's not, it even has a small vacant lot for the Flix Bus at 31st and 8th. The issue there is that it's old-fashioned low-rise, with a nice old granite church (with no resident congregation), and it would be worth keeping the scale if possible. Most New Yorkers do not want to live in the big version of Midtown, and most Manhattan neighborhoods are considerably quieter. So then Gov. Hochul goes way out of bounds and tries to designate the Penn South station area "blighted" and pay for it with office buildings. Before that became economically infeasible, it was shaping up as a battle of extremes, with the NIMBY's understandably up in arms. The governor also wants to rename NYP after a New Yorker. The completed work improving NYP was good, so maybe there is room for compromise.

Seems to me, but who am I, that Penn South station could have neighborhood amenities on the roof, like playing fields or a school. Or a grocery store and a movie theater. Etc. Or make it Lincoln Center South.

The commenter above is correct that the PANYNJ would be a natural agency to manage NYP, aside from the issue of CT. Or go to Scranton and make it PANYNJCTPA. But practiclly, no. PANYNJ just got its feet back under itself in the late 1990s, financially, and the two governors' offices do not seem willing to run it as they have the power to do. It does have money, though NY State's bond rating is still one notch higher.

 

[jis]

@Amtrak25 can probably give a much more elaborate and more informed explanation, but I think PANYNJ is way more incompetent than Amtrak at running any rail facilities. It would be a disaster to let them anywhere near Penn Station.

 

[lordsigma]

I have to concur. PANYNJ is essentially the same type of quasi government agency and has enough of its own turf to manage along with its own issues. If the states of NY and NJ really decided they wanted to go the way of through running (which they don’t) then the way to go would simply be for the states to jointly order the MTA and NJT to do so. And then come up with some joint state “Penn station improvement commission” with a commissioner running that with knowledge of the actual Penn station operations to oversee the project armed with the authority to make the two agencies develop and implement it. It won’t happen as even New York State is a proponent of Penn Station South and keeping the status quo operationally.

 

[Amtrak25]

PATH service levels are at record lows, especially to the WTC, that we have not seen since the 1960's. You don't want them in charge of running trains. Up into the 1990's they ran 40 trains an hour to WTC. Now all they do is brag about 9 as opposed to 8 car trains on the NWK line with 12 train per hour, even less from Hoboken with 7 car trains.

The East River tunnels in fact run 2 + 2 all the time, otherwise certain NYPS tracks would not be able to use them reverse peak. It is the LIRR Main Line east of Harold to Jamaica that is 3 + 1. LIRR Grand Central Madison and Hunterspoint trains are bled off. What remains uses tunnel 1 & 3 and 2 & 4. Sunnyside Yard trains bypasses Harold, and tunnels 2 & 3 criss-cross upon emerging in Queens. Those are things Rethink folks do not comprehend, which has the most off-the-wall-plan of all. They want 10 of 21 NYPS tracks torn out, directional run half the remaining each way, tunnel lines 3 & 4 westbound, 1 & 2 eastbound, and dwell time of LIRR-NJT trains to be 6 minutes. It takes a long time to unload an NJT MLV train with their horrid door design regardless of how fat you make the station platforms. Yes, I have read the 110+ page book. Bazooka Joe comics were more realistic.

The thru-runners do not understand anything beyond NYPS environs and nothing about getting across Queens. When confronted with that dilemma, they say they don't need to run 3 + 1, combine zone expresses into locals, reduce peak train volume, increase their acceleration rates to compensate and we can't afford $13 - 17 Billion, which is a concern but that does not validate any of their plans. They also blame Cuomo-Hochul for creating Penn South, not Amtrak, conflating the real estate inevitable development spreading east from Hudson Yards from Amtrak's 2011 design.

As I said, with IRUM/Rethink/TSTC, we are dealing with a cult that is not interested in physical realities and facts, and it is a waste of adrenalin and pancreatic glucose release to argue with them. The latter two groups consist of the same people who are the Chelsea NIMBY's wishing to save every structure and replicate the old Penn Station headhouse. They are so far losing. Penn Plaza 2 building is being (or has just been) rebuilt. Hotel Pennsylvania as of a few months ago is a vacant lot, and nobody but them wants to save the structurally deficient, abandoned Pennsy powerhouse as though it is some priceless heirloom of original Penn Station.

They got their Moynihan Concourse, which ought to be enough, and that has increased dwell time of thru Amtrak trains since it encourages west loading/unloading of trains, the sheeple following Amtrak e-ticketing instructions. With westbound trains having first class, business class, and sleepers at the east end of consist, more time is spent hoofing it up and down the platforms. Of course, they don't get that inconvenient truth either with all their obsession with dwell time. It's all about NIMBYism and playing train on their tablets.

 

[MARC Rider]

With westbound trains having first class, business class, and sleepers at the east end of consist, more time is spent hoofing it up and down the platforms.

First, most Amtrak passengers aren't traveling first, business or sleeper class.
Second, all Acela First class is at the west end of the train whether westbound or eastbound.
Third, there are no through sleeper passing through Penn Station. The last time I took a sleeper, it was pretty close to to the Moynihan escalator and didn't require a lot of "hoofing" along the platform.

Finally, I think that the real reason dwell time is so long at Penn has to do with the narrow platforms and the cattle lines in the train hall, not the location of the cattle lines. Of course, those of us in the know can avoid the cattle lines by boarding at the old Penn Station or the West End concourse.

 

[railiner]

The governor also wants to rename NYP after a New Yorker.

They can plaster a new name all over it, much as they did with the Moynihan concourse, but it will always be "Penn Station" to New Yorker's...

 

[John Santos]

Do most or all NJT trains turn at the dead-end tracks below NYP? If so, they can't run through to Long Island to turn and have to turn there (or occupy one of the limited through tracks while being turned.) (BTW, I'm sure these trains are not literally turned around as there is no loop or wye there! I was referring to the process of setting up the train to run in the opposite direction, which means at a minimum getting all the passengers off and the engineer going to the other end of the train, but also may involve cleaning, trash removal, turning around seats, etc.)

I forgot the issue of third rail vs. catenary power, which means most of the NJT and MN equipment and most of the LIRR equipment can't share tracks and to run through, they would either need to add third rail to the Hudson tunnels and beyond or add catenary to any of the East River tunnels that don't already have it, and to all the LIRR lines on Long Island, or both, or purchase new dual-mode equipment or convert existing equipment. So it could well be cheaper to just bite the bullet and build Penn South, despite the NIMBYs.

BTW, I've heard multiple mentions of PATH trains, which apparently go to downtown, near the WTC. I can't find any sign of any other tunnels under the Hudson (once again Google has made Google maps almost unusable.) Lots of ferry lines, some of which appear to go several blocks inland, but no trains. Or are the PATH "trains" actually buses that use the road tunnels? Or do they only connect to Brooklyn, not NJ, and are thus completely irrelevant to this conversation?

 

[Amtrak25]

PATH is an isolated rapid transit system owned by the Port Authority. It runs from Newark and Hoboken branches to WTC and the uptown line to 33rd and 6th Avenue. They have 2 pairs of tunnels for lower and mid Manhattan.

 

[railiner]

Do most or all NJT trains turn at the dead-end tracks below NYP? If so, they can't run through to Long Island to turn and have to turn there (or occupy one of the limited through tracks while being turned.) (BTW, I'm sure these trains are not literally turned around as there is no loop or wye there! I was referring to the process of setting up the train to run in the opposite direction, which means at a minimum getting all the passengers off and the engineer going to the other end of the train, but also may involve cleaning, trash removal, turning around seats, etc.)

I forgot the issue of third rail vs. catenary power, which means most of the NJT and MN equipment and most of the LIRR equipment can't share tracks and to run through, they would either need to add third rail to the Hudson tunnels and beyond or add catenary to any of the East River tunnels that don't already have it, and to all the LIRR lines on Long Island, or both, or purchase new dual-mode equipment or convert existing equipment. So it could well be cheaper to just bite the bullet and build Penn South, despite the NIMBYs.

BTW, I've heard multiple mentions of PATH trains, which apparently go to downtown, near the WTC. I can't find any sign of any other tunnels under the Hudson (once again Google has made Google maps almost unusable.) Lots of ferry lines, some of which appear to go several blocks inland, but no trains. Or are the PATH "trains" actually buses that use the road tunnels? Or do they only connect to Brooklyn, not NJ, and are thus completely irrelevant to this conversation?

All four of the East River tunnels, as well as both of the North River (Hudson) tunnels, and even the Empire connection tunnel are equipped with overhead catenary. The East River tunnels also have LIRR type third rail. I believe the North River tunnels originally were also third rail equipped out as far the old Manhattan Transfer station, until catenary system replaced that. I don't think they have them any longer. The Empire connection I don't believe ever had third rail. I don't think the lines up to the West Side Yard have catenary...

 

[uspurs]

All four of the East River tunnels, as well as both of the North River (Hudson) tunnels, and even the Empire connection tunnel are equipped with overhead catenary. The East River tunnels also have LIRR type third rail. I believe the North River tunnels originally were also third rail equipped out as far the old Manhattan Transfer station, until catenary system replaced that. I don't think they have them any longer. The Empire connection I don't believe ever had third rail. I don't think the lines up to the West Side Yard have catenary...

The Empire Connection tunnel has, and the trains use, third rail; I don't believe there's catenary there.

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

The Empire connection I don't believe ever had third rail.

I recall the Empire Connection having third rail from NYP to the mouth of the tunnel. I recall riding from Croton Harmon to NYP in a Turboliner which were equipped with 3rd rail shoes and switched over before entering the tunnel - on that trip we were delayed somewhat as they were having trouble getting the shoes to deploy. The FL9s they previously used also had shoes although I have seen videos where they are on Diesel power right out of NYP so perhaps they had issues using 3rd rail towards the end.

 

[railiner]

I recall the Empire Connection having third rail from NYP to the mouth of the tunnel. I recall riding from Croton Harmon to NYP in a Turboliner which were equipped with 3rd rail shoes and switched over before entering the tunnel - on that trip we were delayed somewhat as they were having trouble getting the shoes to deploy. The FL9s they previously used also had shoes although I have seen videos where they are on Diesel power right out of NYP so perhaps they had issues using 3rd rail towards the end.

The FL9's must have had Metro North type third rail? I don't know what type the Turboliner's had...not sure if they could deploy both types, or not....?

 

[AmtrakMaineiac]

The FL9's must have had Metro North type third rail? I don't know what type the Turboliner's had...not sure if they could deploy both types, or not....?

Yes they would have had Metro North type 3rd rail as in the New Haven days they were operating into Grand Central Terminal.

I don't think either FL9s or Turbos had LIRR type shoes nor would they have a need for them.

 

[railiner]

Yes they would have had Metro North type 3rd rail as in the New Haven days they were operating into Grand Central Terminal.

I don't think either FL9s or Turbos had LIRR type shoes nor would they have a need for them.

I would think that when they switched the Turboliner's from NYG to NYP, they would want LIRR type shoes to operate in Penn Station, as well as the East River Tunnels on the way to Sunnyside Yard. They probably ran on turbine power from NYP up to Croton and beyond. The Empire tunnel is much shorter, and the rest of the connection is pretty well ventilated or outside on the way to Spuyten Duyvil...

 

[Andrew]

Trans-Hudson train capacity would increase by 2 trains per hour without Penn Station South, 18 with it. The Raritan line's own Congressional whiner from Westfield, Tom Kean, Jr, can keep nagging to impress the local realtors, but it will not have any impact.

There are thru-running NIMBY's, planners, and foamers under various auspices of IRUM, Rethink, and Tristate Transportation Campaign who are actively opposing Penn Station South, wishing to marry train operations of LIRR and MN (from New Rochelle) with NJT's for anywhere from 6 to 10 minutes dwell time because they allegedly do it in Your-Up and that will magically give them so much more capacity. All the physical, technical, rolling stock, station slot ownership, and operational practicality issues in preventing that are way over their heads and they cannot be convinced. It is like a cult.

How do you know that trans-hudson train capacity would only increase by two trains per hour without Penn Station South?

 

[Amtrak25]

How do you know that trans-hudson train capacity would only increase by two trains per hour without Penn Station South?

Because the Gateway documents said so.

I would think that when they switched the Turboliner's from NYG to NYP, they would want LIRR type shoes to operate in Penn Station, as well as the East River Tunnels on the way to Sunnyside Yard. They probably ran on turbine power from NYP up to Croton and beyond. The Empire tunnel is much shorter, and the rest of the connection is pretty well ventilated or outside on the way to Spuyten Duyvil...

The night they switched to NYPS in 1991, Turboliner and FL9 shoes were immediately changed to be over-sliding. Neither of them hauled trains between NYPS and Sunnyside. They were hauled by an E60 or AEM7. Turboliners and FL-9's were too weak on 3rd rail power to make the grades.

 

[railiner]

The night they switched to NYPS in 1991, Turboliner and FL9 shoes were immediately changed to be over-sliding. Neither of them hauled trains between NYPS and Sunnyside. They were hauled by an E60 or AEM7. Turboliners and FL-9's were to weak on 3rd rail power to make the grades.

So basically, they only had the over-sliding shoes to provide HEP until they started their trips on turbine power...?

 

[Amtrak25]

They ran on 3rd rail without supplemental locomotives north of NYPS to where the 3rd rail ends around a mile up the West Side in the 40's .

 

[west point]

They ran on 3rd rail without supplemental locomotives north of NYPS to where the 3rd rail ends around a mile up the West Side in the 40's .

Someone once said that there was also CAT installed on the Empire connection. Can anyone confirm or deny by actual observation?

 

[alanh]

From the pictures from the roof issues they had a few months ago, it looks like no catenary or third rail.

 

[west point]

My impression about CAT was that it just went 1 - 2 miles from NYP no further than only on the single-track section? Alanh that section you show is way north of that maybe CAT.

 

[jis]

My impression about CAT was that it just went 1 - 2 miles from NYP no further than only on the single-track section? Alanh that section you show is way north of that maybe CAT.

The catenary and third rail end at the single track tunnel mouth or just short of CP Empire.

I can’t tell for sure what the location of that photo is so to me it does not prove much of anything without additional information. Though at first blush it appears to be North of CP Empire.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

The catenary and third rail end at the single track tunnel mouth or just short of CP Empire.

I can’t tell for sure what the location of that photo is so to me it does not prove much of anything without additional information. Though at first blush it appears to be North of CP Empire.

524 W. 51st St. It's the south side of 51st just west of 10th Avenue. It's surprisingly far inland. I guess they run diesel in that tunnel. There's block of open track between 48th and 49th, double track.

 

[west point]

The catenary and third rail end at the single track tunnel mouth or just short of CP Empire.

That would be my recollection. Empire is about between 38th and 39th street. However, a check of Open Railway map shows the section from Empire to NYP to be "De-electrified" That brings up question is it De-electrified and is CAT and 3rd rail still in place?

Maybe our riders of Albany trains can verify when locos start using diesels out of NYP?

 

[Andrew]

Because the Gateway documents said so.



The night they switched to NYPS in 1991, Turboliner and FL9 shoes were immediately changed to be over-sliding. Neither of them hauled trains between NYPS and Sunnyside. They were hauled by an E60 or AEM7. Turboliners and FL-9's were too weak on 3rd rail power to make the grades.

Which Gateway document said that--can you share it?

And are you saying that only two additional trains per hour would be able travel through the Hudson Tunnel Project segment or the future four track segment between Kearny Junction and Manhattan?