Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[rickycourtney]

This is probably the better thread to talk about the "inside baseball" of Greyhound. I'd prefer to keep my previous thread on the topic of BoltBus.

I'll quickly talk about my Greyhound ride for a bit. The trip report's coming. Good and bad mixed together.

Outbound first. Rode Schedule 8311 from Reno to Sacramento, it was continuing to San Francisco. Bus was 2013 MCI D4505 #86555, based from Los Angeles and equipped with a Cummins ISX12 and 50 American Seating Premier LS-1. Driver was a African-American name Ken who took along his little kid.

Departed 20 minutes late due to misplaced senior passenger, can't remeber that man's name. Driver stood up facing the pax and did his annoucements with the speaker pulled out. Good driver but very uncomfortable seats on this bus. I sat in Seat 9, left 3rd row. Seat sunk down when I sat on it. Couldn't stand up on this type of bus. Full load. Arrived on time to Sacramento. Would prefer a rebuilt 102DL3 or even a G4500 over this thing.

Way back to Reno was 1999 MCI 102DL3 #6909, unknown base, sat in Seat 5, left 2nd row, Schedule 8308 San Francisco-Reno. Much nicer seats. Excellent 51 Amaya Patriot PT. Far better than other Greyhound buses. The bus rode very smoothly but the security shield rattled a bit since it was not installed when the bus was built, later retrofitted. Didn't expect to see it in SFD but there it was. Nice driver named Juan. Took an extra stop in Colfax. Departed on time, arrived on time.

Glad to hear you got to ride on a 102DL3.

Overall, good trip and I will continue to use Greyhound for my travel needs, but I'll be hunting for more 102DL3's, and trying to avoid the X3-45's and D4505's with the original Premier LS-1.

Well it's unfortunate you don't get a lot of say in the matter. Greyhound will give you whatever bus they have. It would be nice if they let you pick the bus (of course the un-refurbished G4500's would never get to run!)

It's a shame the X3-45's have these uncomfortable seats. I was REALLY impressed by the bus otherwise. The ride was really smooth and quiet. I know you said they have smaller luggage bins (Prevost claims they have the largest underfloor surface area in the industry) but the passenger cabin feels like it has more headroom. I didn't measure it but I'm 6'3" so I appreciate every inch of headroom I can get.

However, the YARTS D4500CT's with Premier-2 cloth covers were quite a bit more comfortable. Even better was the AC Transit D4500 with unknown old-fashioned seating.

Wait, I've never heard of the Premier-2. Where did you read about it? I'm glad to hear they're more comfortable.

Anyway, full report coming up with pictures. This report will come on the Amtrak Trip Reports forum as I will also include my Amtrak trip and some photos from the train.

Now if Ricky is going to read this, please do consider riding a G4500 sometime, just because it's more comfrotable than the new buses with Premier LS-1.

I look forward to reading your report.

I really don't want to take one far but I'd consider taking a short trip down to Tacoma if I have a day free.

 

[rickycourtney]

Oh! I almost forgot. I was in the area yesterday and today so I walked by the Seattle Greyhound station and did a bit of bus spotting for you.

Right as I walked up on Wednesday an un-refurbushed G4500 (#7263) was pulling out of the station. This unit was a stereotypically junky G4500 (dirty, decals fading, side panels dented.) I couldn't catch the head sign but it did appear to be departing with passengers onboard.



After that, I grabbed a couple of pictures of a refurbished G4500 (#7028) as it was stopped at the station. It appeared to have finished dropping off passengers and a few minutes later it left (presumably to go back to the yard.)



Right after it left another refurbished G4500 (#7265) pulled into the station and passengers streamed off.



The next day I walked by and the same un-refurbushed G4500 (#7263) was back boarding passengers. Again I neglected to look at the head sign. I was too distracted by a unknown older model Prevost (#6668). This thing was pure white except with a silver Greyhound "running dog" logo stuck on it's nose. No "Greyhound" lettering except for the small legal copy on the side panels.



Here's the other thing... I tried as hard as possible to determine what the seats are like on these G4500's are like but I couldn't. The windows are just too darkly tinted and I didn't want to raise any suspicions at the station. But what I can tell you is that the outline of the seats appears to be the exact same as the seats on the un-refurbished. So it's possible that Greyhound simply put new leather covers over the old seats (like on the 102DL3) or they didn't bother making any changes to the seats.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Woah, those are some big pictures. Too bad I can't see through the windows to see what's inside. That Prevost H3-45 (#6998) is second-hand from Coach America Phoenix and operate Seattle-Vancouver, occasionally to Portland, according to Keegan on GTE. Accoridng to some Flickr photos, they are slwoly being painted blue and have leather seats inside, but are not any Greyhound fleet seats.

The Premier-2 is just the best name I could think of for the firmer Premier LS with what appears to be an American Seating 2005 seat bottom. The seatback is still no good but the bottom is better, though the footrest is gone. I thought this was the new version until I rode #86555, built in 2013, and still has the uncomfortable Premier LS.

Found this rebuilt G4500 shot, don't know if you've seen it before: https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/5274810/or/532537704/name/20140113_200312.jpg.

Seats definately look to be leather but I don't know what type. Looks to be either Patriot PT taken out from retired MC-12 and 102D3, removed rows from 102DL3 for extra legroom, or it could be the orignal G4500 seats resurfaced, that would be Amaya Brasil with leather slapped on. I know the original 12 G4500 pilot rebuilds had Patriot PT, but now that large-scale rebuilding has started, I don't know if they have enough Patriot PT left in the shops to fill them all.

The Amaya Brasil isn't too bad, I'd say about the same as Amtrak Cascades seating but more run-down along with the whole G4500 bus which is falling apart after crossing the million-mile mark. Legroom is about 32", same as the plane, until the get rebuilt with extra legroom. Of course the lift seat and "shotgun" seat have extra legroom.

 

[rickycourtney]

That link is dead when I click on it. Maybe you can post the image directly.

Also, I noticed that the refurbished G4500's all had stickers that say "Seating Capacity: 50" I guess that means that one row of seats was removed from the G4500 along with the middle seat in the rear.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Can't find the imaga now. I actually saw #7028 with the old livery in Reno back in September 2013, I guess what they did was they took delivery of those D4505's in October and sent them to Los Angeles, kicked out the G4500's to the East for rebuilds, and in January, sent those G4500's to Seattle, replacing more old G4500's for rebuilds, until they get done over and the last G4500 rebuilds will probably go somewhere else.

I saw #7077 in March but then it was spotted in the East so probably got sent for a rebuild alon with #7103 and #7170. Lots of rebuilding going on, seems like. I guess a second batch of rebuilds was rolled out around March and #7077 was probably part of the theird batch. I estimate the thrid batch to be done in May. Don't know how many in each batch but there are about 60 based in Seatle so I guess each batch is about 30 since half of the G4500's you spotted recently were rebuilt. Also, #7137 was confirmed rebuilt.

At this rate, G4500 rebuilds will be done by August 2015, in line with a 2011 Greyhound news release saying they will have an "all-blue fleet by 2016". Remember they still have some 102D3's and C2045's in the spare fleet, which will probably get retired in 2015.

Regarding 102DL3's, I found out #6909 is actually based from Los Angeles, it's one of the very few based from Los Angeles and a comfortable bus indeed. I belive it is better than the Amtrak California D4505's because this one had wide headrests, extra legroom, and leather seat covers.

Our driver, Juan, was a nice guy but openly announced that he wasn't familiar with "these old buses". He said he hadn't driven to Reno in six months and hadn't driven a 102DL3 for a long time, which showed clearly when he drove very slowly up hills, like 30 mph. I know the DL3 is great at climbing hills and shouldn't have been going so slowly, but I guess if you don't get used to the bus, then don't drive fast.

He did gave us an extra rest stop in Colfax since he said passengers would "ask for a rest stop there anyway". Also the Wi-Fi router disconnected. Well, what do you expect from moving wireless signals track down a bus at 65 mph through the mountains?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Why are leather (or more likely 'bonded leather', which is basically vinyl with some leather scraps thrown in) preferable?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Why are leather (or more likely 'bonded leather', which is basically vinyl with some leather scraps thrown in) preferable?

Because they are easier to clean. If you have cloth seats that get stains, the stains stick. If you have the cloth seats with the little fibers sticking out, that's even worse because grime sticks to it.

I think the different models have different types of leather, the new seats appear to have worse leather since they are stiffer on the outside and softer on the inside, while the old seats are hard on the inside and soft on the outside.

Anyway, the new seats really suck, but some of the new buses have different Premier LS which is better. Though the closer than a bus comes to a train would still be the rebuilt Greyhound-spec 102DL3 with Patriot PT, and it really does feel like a small one-car train when you're on it. I don't know if the Canada-spec 102DL3 is better or worse since I've never taken it before.

See, this mix of buses and seats really ends up worsenging Greyhound's reputation since people think the old white buses (G4500) are uncomfortable and unreliable, but people think the new blue buses (D4505 & X3-45) are still uncomfortable. Very few people know that Greyhound rebuilt some old buses and pretty much kept the best of old and new together.

When it comes to Greyhound, expect surprises, and pray for the good surprises. I guess the bus gods did indeed give me that 102DL3 when it was expected to be another D4505. Which all adds to the fun of bus travel.

 

[rickycourtney]

Why are leather (or more likely 'bonded leather', which is basically vinyl with some leather scraps thrown in) preferable?

As swadian said, leather (or bonded leather) is much easier to keep clean. You can just wipe any messes off with a wet cloth. It also is less likely to absorb any foul odors.
But first and foremost, it gives the buses a classier look.

Greyhound is trying to reinvent its brand and present a better image of its self. That's why it's been undertaking this massive program of buying new buses and refurbish older buses adding leather seats, legroom, power outlets and Wi-Fi.

Many of the major airlines have replaced fabric seats with leather seats for the same reasons (cleanliness, image.)

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

.....

Many of the major airlines have replaced fabric seats with leather seats for the same reasons (cleanliness, image.)

Yes, the airlines are doing that, while reducing legroom at the same time. Southwest and United are both reducing legroom, American already did it. Not sure about Delta.

I think Greyhound doing it is fine since they're inproving service overall and increasign legroom. But airlines doing it just desn't seem to fit with the rest of their actions, including route cuts, hiked fares, and reduced legroom. At least Greyhound is adding more rural routes and long-distance routes.

So here's the deal: airlines are becoming Megabus with wings, and Greyhound is becoming Southwest with wheels.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Leather very much does retain odor. It's an organic material, and it gets really gross. It's probably bonded leather or possibly just a good vinyl. Leather also can not be cleaned using water- it dries it the heck out.. Those torn seats you photographed from what I could see were vinyl.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I believe the Premier LS has vinyl, while the Patriot PT has bonded leather. Buses with both seat models do smell a lot better than the G4500 with Brasil cloth seats. Note it's Brasil, not Brazil.

I have no idea what covers the Torino VIP has, which is the seating on Greyhound Canada DL3's and LuxBusAmerica.

 

[rickycourtney]

Leather very much does retain odor. It's an organic material, and it gets really gross. It's probably bonded leather or possibly just a good vinyl. Leather also can not be cleaned using water- it dries it the heck out.. Those torn seats you photographed from what I could see were vinyl.

That's why I said that it's less likely to retain odors... especially the odors these seats are likely to pick up from stinky passengers.

Agreed. Water shouldn't be used to clean these seats... But I doubt Greyhounds cleaning crews are using the proper leather cleaners. These seats get a lot of abuse and after 5 years, the seats in the bus I was on look like they were ready for new leather covers.

I *think* they're leather... But it's definitely not expensive leather and it was definitely bonded to some sort of backing.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Leather like vinyl has been getting more and more realistic which is why it's becoming more common on automobiles. Cool fact: until the mid 80s almost all Mercedes-Benz products sold in the US had vinyl 'MB-TEX' seats, even the SL roadster and the big S-Class, both of which had inflation adjusted base prices north of $100k. Insanely durable stuff, though- it's why really old and beat up MBs have almost new looking seats. Wish the springs and horsehair pads held up as well as the stuff covering them.

Vinyl is a good choice for a bus operator. It's durable and can be cleaned with a wet rag, and if it's black (a color people seem to like in leather for reasons I've never quite fathomed- if I ever get to custom order the S350 Bluetec or Bentley Mulsanne I've always wanted I'd get it with blue, green, or oxblood leather) it hides all stains perfectly.

But I wouldn't see vinyl/pleather/bonded leather as an upgrade. It doesn't breathe and to me all three seem cheap. I'd order an E-Class with it, but only because of durability and a lack of desire too maintain it (or pay $2000 for the privilege of sitting on a dead cow)

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

GML, for Greyhound it is an upgrade, because of durability and cleaniless. With huge amounts of different passengers sitting on them all the time, they need to hide stains and be easy to clean. They are used on transcon routes where passengers buy food and eat on the bus, the oil and stains need to be easy to clean. And since a Greyhound bus runs an average of 130,000 miles a year, durability is important too. Especially if you're investing in a $500,000-plus vehicle.

From 2005 until 2010, the 102DL3's were worked very hard and many ran 150,000 plus miles a year, they were run-down and needed that rebuild when they were supplemented by D4505's. But the buses themselves held up very well, even in 2011 you could find un-rebuilt DL3's in good condition. Now they're pushing 2 million miles and expected to remian in service till 2025.

As for Greyhound's cargo services, they're important in Canada but in the US, passengers are still the main business. Greyhound US does not have mini-trailers or tractor-trailers for freight.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Video of a rebuilt G4500 right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d2wEEwkc_Q&list=UUDrB9F_--MrEhJjJ8GzgoQg.

#7125 arriving in Las Vegas. You can comment and ask Josh where it was coming from. Since Josh lives in Augusta, I believe it's the Phoenix-Las Vegas route. He must've rode Augusta-Atlanta-Dallas-Phoenix-Las Vegas.

Edit: OK, looks like he was arrivng Las Vegas in the evening since it started out with a bit of light and ended when it was dark. Those seats look to be rebuilt Amaya Brasil, the original G4500 seats, not Patriot PT from retired buses.

I'm pretty sure this is Sked 6362 Phoenix-Las Vegas, and probably arrived a bit early. No idea which garage the bus is based out of, but the closest garage is Los Angeles.

 

[rickycourtney]

So I found this old National Bus Trader article when the G4500 was introduced: http://www.busmag.com/pdfs/2001-12_MCIG4500.pdf

It's funny... it all seems like a paid PR piece with words like "remarkable, fascinating, interesting" but it's not really a glowing review of the G4500.

Anyways... looking at the picture of the seats on page 6... that's definitely looks like the same seat I spotted through the windows of the refurbished G4500. So I'm guessing they just slapped leather covers over the old seats.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

If you watched the video, that's exactly what they did to the G4500. I've ridden it enough to recognize those Amaya Brasil seats. Apparently "Brasil" means "Brazil" in Spanish, but Brazillians speak mainly Portugese. Don't know why they named it such.

I think they repaired those seats and slapped new covers on them, then took out a row to create extra legroom, also took out the middle seat in the back. Worked fine with the 102DL3's Amaya Patriot PT seats, don't know how it would work with the Gina.

I'll be slowly wiritng a Greyhound Guide and I'll probably post it on a new thread in Non-Rail, don't know where else to put it. I could post it on GTE except those guys are all bus geeks anyway.

How many rebuilt Ginas are you seeing in Seattle? Lots or just a few? I suspect they have a second rebuilt batch in service. Those G4500's really killing Greyhound's name in the PNW.

 

[rickycourtney]

Ah okay. Just watched the video. Those look like the same seat with leather covers. Looks nice!

Interesting that they're removing the middle seat at the rear of the G4500 considering it wasn't removed from the 102DL3.

I think a Greyhound guide would be good and interesting... The question comes up occasionally on this board.

What do you mean by Ginas? Are you referring to the G4500? I haven't been back to the Greyhound since I last posted.

Frankly I don't think Greyhound has cared about their image in the PNW for the last few years and since 2012 has instead focused on building up the BoltBus image. Bolt is now a big player in the Portland-Seattle-Vancouver market... giving Amtrak and the other luxury bus lines a run for their money.

To put it bluntly, in 2012 the Greyhound name carried too much baggage. No matter how nice the buses are and how fast the express schedules are... It's difficult to get someone to take a bus that says "Greyhound" on the side. "BoltBus" doesn't have the same brand problem.

Now fast forward to 2014... the G4500 coaches are being rebuilt and nationwide the Greyhound brand is slowly recovering, it may be a good time for them to consider investing in the Northwest and establishing a couple of Greyhound Express routes.

PS: I'm still looking forward to your report on your Greyhound/Amtrak/YARTS trip to Yosemite.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Sorry, I almost forgot about that trip report! I've been busy lately, and to make things worse, I'm having camera troubles. I could write the report tonight but there wouldn't be many photos. Well?

Some Greyhound guys call the G4500 as the "Gina" or "McGina", short for MCI-Dina G4500. There's all kinds of nicknames circulating on the boards, I've heard "disposable bus", "plastic bus", "fiberglass junk", "dirty dog", etc. But "Gina" just sticks to me.

The two orignally-planned G4500 routes were Dallas-Los Angeles and Chicago-Seattle. Before delivery, that was expanded to include New York-Boston. While Chicago-Seattle was delayed G4500's from 2001 to 2002, then there were so many malfunctions that passengers ran away in hordes and the route was cut in 2004. So Seattle has been "G4500 home base" since 2002.

Apparently the G4500 was supposed to be retired by 2014, just like Greyhound Canada, but due to ADA restrictions, they ended up been saved for rebuilds. That's why Greyhound rebuilt the 102DL3 before the G4500, and that's why rebuilt DL3's with lifts were sent to Canada, many of which you saw in Vancouver on your trip. Now that Greyhound is almost done with DL3 rebuilds, they are rebuilding the G4500, which allows better PNW service, because Seattle doesn't have any home-base DL3's. And you can imagine the problems of switching bus models around in the midst of a fleet shortage.

Another problem right now is that Sacramento-Portland keeps getting packed in the summer. Greyhound stopped "overbooking" and uses a new system now. They are speeding up service and introducing D4505's on it, but buses are sold out all the time. More frequency is needed when the summer schedule begins.

This is what I think Greyhound needs to do:

1. Rebuild the G4500 as fast as possible.

2. Get D4505's and rebuilt G4500's on Sacramento-Portland.

3. Add two Limited schedules on the route, one daytime, one overnight (along current overnight 1440/1431).

4. Introduce Seattle-Vancouver and Seattle-Portland nonstop Expresses using rebuilt G4500's, except border crossing.

5. Put the last rebuilt G4500's onto the other PNW routes.

Railiner explained to me that a "Limited" is a long-distance Express, it's branded "Express" but actually different because it doesn't follow regular Express ops. As for the possbile SAC-PUT Limited, I think it should go: Sacramento-Redding-Medford-RS Center Point-Eugene-Salem-Portland.

 

[rickycourtney]

Yeah man I'd still love to hear about your trip even if there's no pictures. Plus I think your information on the YARTS service will be particularly helpful. You can always add the pictures to the trip report later or add them to your Flickr account.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yeah man I'd still love to hear about your trip even if there's no pictures. Plus I think your information on the YARTS service will be particularly helpful. You can always add the pictures to the trip report later or add them to your Flickr account.

OK, uh, where should I post it?

 

[rickycourtney]

Travelogues/Trip Reports under Travel Resources and First Timer Info.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I got Flickr to work for me again, and found this shot of a rebuilt Greyhound G4500 in Seattle: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21801682@N00/13970158764.

Also this old 2011 shot of three beat-up G4500's in Portland: https://www.flickr.com/photos/60777901@N02/6956902548.

Sure looks nicer than it used to be.

 

[rickycourtney]

So out of curiosity I did a bit of research on the American Seating Premier seat.

It appears that there have been two versions of the seat... the Premier which was built from 2008 until 2012 and the Premier LS which was introduced around March 2012.

So what's the difference? American Seating says the Premier LS has "improved seat cushion comfort, a thinner back and kick panels and reduced seat weight."

So I'm not exactly sure how Greyhound's purchasing process works, but they likely order these seats from American Seating and have them shipped to Prevost or MCI who installs them into the buses as they come off the production line. If the lead times are long enough or if Greyhound got a deal on the remaining stock of the older Premier seats... they could be on most of the 2012 buses and maybe even some of the 2013 buses.

That could explain why you found the seats on the older YARTS D4500CT more comfortable than on the newer Greyhound D4505.

I know that I was not impressed with the older Premier seats on the 2009 X3-45 I took.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Wait a sec, the Premier and Premier LS are made by American Seating. The Patriot, Patriot PT, and Patriot PL are made by Amaya. So let's just forget about the Patriot right now, since they're fine, well the PT is the best version but the others are OK.

As for the Premier seats, I've ridden 2010 D4505's that didn't have footrests and felt the same as the YARTS D45' except with "leatherette" covers. So I don't know what's going on. It seems totally random, because I had ridden three 2013 D4505's before #86555, they were #86521, 86542, and 86549. None of these had footrests, but none of them sagged. And BoltBus also has 2008 X3-45's, how could the Premier be in production starting in 2008? Even more confusing, Greyhound has 18 2007 X3-45's with Patriot PT.

Yeah, I don't know what's going on. Ricky, you seem to be doing too much research into these seat types considering you haven't even ridden a "true" Greyhound.

On another note, since you saw rebuilt G4500 #7202 running SEA-MSL, looks like the G4500 rebuilds are getting done quick. See, the great thing about Greyhound is that, when the G4500 rebuilds are done, you could ride a daytime bus to Missoula, so you don't have to sleep at all. Whereas if you rode Amtrak to, say, Whitefish, you would have to sleep on the EB.