Ground Transport in the Pacific Northwest

[JWM]

As someone who has taken "Executive Class" busses in Mexico, we are not even close!.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Except, if I understand it correctly, Flixbus contracts with independent carrier's to operate schedule's, while Greyhound runs them itself...?
Does Flixbus actually own and operate any buses, besides what's left of Greyhound?

Yes, which means that Flixbus drivers are never Flixbus employees, while Greyhound drivers are. So Greyhound is more Flix than Flix.
(Unless Greyhound drivers are also subcontractors, at this point).

 

[Willbridge]

Yes, which means that Flixbus drivers are never Flixbus employees, while Greyhound drivers are. So Greyhound is more Flix than Flix.
(Unless Greyhound drivers are also subcontractors, at this point).

As far as I know, the Greyhound drivers are still unionized Greyhound employees. The gradual shutdown of Greyhound, combined with the national driver shortage, should avoid triggering layoffs. Flix service in the Pacific Northwest is run by MTR Western, which also operates Amtrak Thruway service for Oregon!

I didn't think to write down the date, but early this month a lonely Greyhound trip from Seattle to Sacramento showed in the Flixbus booking system, one trip, one day, one way. It was the end of the Greyhound marque in Oregon, after over 90 years.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

I didn't think to write down the date, but early this month a lonely Greyhound trip from Seattle to Sacramento showed in the Flixbus booking system, one trip, one day, one way. It was the end of the Greyhound marque in Oregon, after over 90 years.

That makes me sad---when I was 16, I used to ride from Salem to Portland to visit friends on Greyhound. I felt like quite the world traveller at the time!
At the time, I remember it being about $7 for a Greyhound ticket between the cities. Easy to go and pop off and have an adventure!

I also hope that Flixbus, whatever they call themselves, increases service. Some of their decisions would probably benefit from having local expertise. I don't know where they are making decisions from, but there is probably ways they can work with the Cascades service, not against it. Especially with something like Kelso and Centralia---those might be better left to the Cascades service, which doesn't have to get on and off the freeway. But Olympia, on the other hand, is a lot more convenient from bus than from train.

 

[Willbridge]

That makes me sad---when I was 16, I used to ride from Salem to Portland to visit friends on Greyhound. I felt like quite the world traveller at the time!
At the time, I remember it being about $7 for a Greyhound ticket between the cities. Easy to go and pop off and have an adventure!

I also hope that Flixbus, whatever they call themselves, increases service. Some of their decisions would probably benefit from having local expertise. I don't know where they are making decisions from, but there is probably ways they can work with the Cascades service, not against it. Especially with something like Kelso and Centralia---those might be better left to the Cascades service, which doesn't have to get on and off the freeway. But Olympia, on the other hand, is a lot more convenient from bus than from train.

Salem Fairgrounds via US99E to Portland with my dad and younger brother was my first Greyhound trip. I think our mother deadheaded our Studebaker home, but I wasn't interested in that part of the evening. It was exciting.

A decade later I was using Greyhound to visit college friends in the Willamette Valley and on the Oregon Coast. Here's what it looked like at the end of my sophomore year. Note the scheduling hammering the Shasta Daylight in the last summer for that train.



SP rail tickets were honored on Greyhound Lines, so I could also use the Shasta Daylight and the Cascade in round-trips.

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, March 10th as of Wednesday night. Note that some train times have been adjusted for the slide repairs. Train 14 is adjusted for the DST change. Also note the double-headed 0800 departure on Flix has been split up.

0645 AT $37/$87
0700 FB $31
0820 AT $66/SO
0830 FB $32
1040 FB $40
1040 AT SO/SO
1200 FB $33
1350 AT SO/SO
1500 FB $34
1656 AT $59/--/$298
1755 AT $42/$72
1910 FB $32
1925 AT $37/$87
2115 FB $33

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $84/$134/$285 chng at Seattle
0700 FB $74 via Seattle
0950 FB $54 chng at Pasco
1645 AT $62/--/$251
1755 AT/NW $89/$119 chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service).

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages (also has a one-way SPK>SEA>PDX connection).
SO = Sold Out.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, March 10th as of Wednesday night. Note that some train times have been adjusted for the slide repairs. Train 14 is adjusted for the DST change. Also note the double-headed 0800 departure on Flix has been split up.

0645 AT $37/$87
0700 FB $31
0820 AT $66/SO
0830 FB $32
1040 FB $40
1040 AT SO/SO
1200 FB $33
1350 AT SO/SO
1500 FB $34
1656 AT $59/--/$298
1755 AT $42/$72
1910 FB $32
1925 AT $37/$87
2115 FB $33

Two trains are sold out, and based on the prices, the other ones are very close.
The Amtrak Cascades seems to be doing very well--- and I wonder how that compares to other state-supported corridor routes, like are the Amtrak corridor routes in Northern and Southern California, and around Chicago, also running at or close to capacity? Or is this specific to the Pacific NW?

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, March 24th as of Wednesday night. Note that some train times adjusted for the slide repairs are back to normal.

0645 AT $42/$87
0700 FB $49
0820 AT $66/SO
0830 FB $49
1040 FB $94
1040 AT $53/SO
1200 FB $72
1410 AT SO/SO
1500 FB $70
1556 AT SO/--/$509
1755 AT $66/$87
1910 FB $49
1925 AT $47/SO
2115 FB $49

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $89/$134/$285 chng at Seattle
0700 FB $85 via Seattle
0950 FB $54 chng at Pasco
1200 FB $124 via Seattle
1645 AT $62/--/$267
1755 AT/NW $98/$138 chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages,
SO = Sold Out!

 

[fairviewroad]

Since there was some bus discussion upthread, thought I'd share my experience from yesterday. I arrived into PDX (airport) at 5:20 p.m. and needed to get to Salem. One might think that light rail-->Amtrak would be a good option, but no. By the time I de-planed and made it to the MAX station, it was clear I wouldn't get to Union Station in time for the 6:09 p.m. southbound Cascades departure (train 507), which (unfortunately for me) was running on-time.

The next (and final) southbound Amtrak Thruway bus of the day wasn't until 9:35 p.m., making Amtrak a very unattractive option.

So I booked a Flix Bus, departing at 7:25 p.m. from an unsheltered curb stop just north of Union Station that also happens to be on the other side of the fence from the platforms (allowing me to observe the on-time arrival and departure of northbound 508).

The bus was very full and the seats were cramped compared to the buses used for the Thruway service. The ticket was a few pennies shy of $20, making it twice as costly as the train I was unable to catch.

This bus appeared to have originated in Portland and was headed all the way to Sacramento. I assume this was a vestige of Greyhound service. We received not one, but two lectures before departure about how smoking/vaping/drug use would result in us being deposited on the shoulder of the highway (do they actually do that? Seems like dumping someone on the shoulder of I-5 at night could be deadly.)

Loud phone conversations or failure to mute phone notifications, on the other hand, would merely result in us being forced to disembark at the next stop (since I was headed for Salem, the next stop, I suppose I could have chatted away to my heart's content!)

Of course, anyone attempting to have a phone conversation would have to compete with the blaring Disney movie that began showing on the overhead screens starting around the time the bus whooshed through the Terwilliger Curves. Unfortunately I was only able to enjoy the first half of "The Princess of the Frog" before the bus arrived in Salem. I had planned on reading a book but between the loud movie and lack of reading lights, that was impossible.

To their credit, the bus arrived "on the advertised" in Salem. It was nice to have the Flix Bus option to fill in the huge gap in evening Amtrak/Thruway service out of Portland, but definitely not something I'm hoping to repeat anytime soon.

 

[Harmon Shay]

Since there was some bus discussion upthread, thought I'd share my experience from yesterday. I arrived into PDX (airport) at 5:20 p.m. and needed to get to Salem. One might think that light rail-->Amtrak would be a good option, but no. By the time I de-planed and made it to the MAX station, it was clear I wouldn't get to Union Station in time for the 6:09 p.m. southbound Cascades departure (train 507), which (unfortunately for me) was running on-time.

The next (and final) southbound Amtrak Thruway bus of the day wasn't until 9:35 p.m., making Amtrak a very unattractive option.

So I booked a Flix Bus, departing at 7:25 p.m. from an unsheltered curb stop just north of Union Station that also happens to be on the other side of the fence from the platforms (allowing me to observe the on-time arrival and departure of northbound 508).

The bus was very full and the seats were cramped compared to the buses used for the Thruway service. The ticket was a few pennies shy of $20, making it twice as costly as the train I was unable to catch.

This bus appeared to have originated in Portland and was headed all the way to Sacramento. I assume this was a vestige of Greyhound service. We received not one, but two lectures before departure about how smoking/vaping/drug use would result in us being deposited on the shoulder of the highway (do they actually do that? Seems like dumping someone on the shoulder of I-5 at night could be deadly.)

Loud phone conversations or failure to mute phone notifications, on the other hand, would merely result in us being forced to disembark at the next stop (since I was headed for Salem, the next stop, I suppose I could have chatted away to my heart's content!)

Of course, anyone attempting to have a phone conversation would have to compete with the blaring Disney movie that began showing on the overhead screens starting around the time the bus whooshed through the Terwilliger Curves. Unfortunately I was only able to enjoy the first half of "The Princess of the Frog" before the bus arrived in Salem. I had planned on reading a book but between the loud movie and lack of reading lights, that was impossible.

To their credit, the bus arrived "on the advertised" in Salem. It was nice to have the Flix Bus option to fill in the huge gap in evening Amtrak/Thruway service out of Portland, but definitely not something I'm hoping to repeat anytime soon.

I believe just dropping bus or train passengers on the shoulder of the highway in an uninhabited area is illegal. I could be wrong on that. Perhaps it was just an empty threat.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

The bus was very full and the seats were cramped compared to the buses used for the Thruway service. The ticket was a few pennies shy of $20, making it twice as costly as the train I was unable to catch.

This bus appeared to have originated in Portland and was headed all the way to Sacramento. I assume this was a vestige of Greyhound service. We received not one, but two lectures before departure about how smoking/vaping/drug use would result in us being deposited on the shoulder of the highway (do they actually do that? Seems like dumping someone on the shoulder of I-5 at night could be deadly.)

Loud phone conversations or failure to mute phone notifications, on the other hand, would merely result in us being forced to disembark at the next stop (since I was headed for Salem, the next stop, I suppose I could have chatted away to my heart's content!)

For a while, there was a Flixbus that went to Corvallis and Eugene that left at 8 PM, slightly after the 7:30 departure to Sacramento. I took that Flixbus regularly. And on that route, the driver was much more pleasant and professional. That Flixbus route, which stops in Seattle, Olympia, Portland and Corvallis, seems to have the majority of its ridership as either college students or educated young professionals.And the vibe is much more courteous---but it also seems to be a ridership that is more conscientious in general. After Greyhound was rebranded as Flixbus, I took that Sacramento route, but in the other direction, from Eugene to Corvallis, and I was struck by how much more condescending and harsh the operator was, and just how the bus had a generally less happy vibe.
So the thing here is---even after Flixbus bought Greyhound, and even after they have demonstrated an ability to provide a service that feels more courteous and comfortable, they are managing to maintain some of their Flixbus routes, the ones that used to be Greyhound, with all the things that people hated about Greyhound. Some of this might be warranted---I understand wanting to discourage smoking--- but a lot of it feels like they are making something more miserable than it needs to be.

 

[fairviewroad]

For a while, there was a Flixbus that went to Corvallis and Eugene that left at 8 PM, slightly after the 7:30 departure to Sacramento.

There is still a departure that leaves just after 8 p.m. and stops only in Corvallis and Eugene. Since I was headed for Salem, it wasn't an option for me (and anyhow, I wanted to leave ASAP). Seems weird that they offer three Portland-Eugene departures daily, but two of them occur within 45 minutes of each other. Furthermore, you'd think they'd run the "local" bus first to siphon off local traffic. I was taking up a seat that could have been purchased by a long-haul customer.

One other interesting aspect to last night's ride: When I was purchasing the ticket on their website, I was given the option of spending an extra $2 to pick my own seat, or an extra $8 to guarantee an empty space next to me. Naturally I declined both offers, and I was assigned a random seat about halfway back.

Upon boarding, we were told repeatedly to "sit anywhere," so I'm guessing the seat selection stuff is more for the "Flix Bus" runs as opposed to the "former Greyhound" runs. At any rate, I didn't hear anybody complain about paying for a specific seat, so I'm guessing most people don't care enough to pay extra for that option. Given how full the bus was, I think it would have been extremely awkward to make the case that you had an assigned seat or even that you had paid extra for the privilege of sitting next to an empty seat.

I believe just dropping bus or train passengers on the shoulder of the highway in an uninhabited area is illegal. I could be wrong on that. Perhaps it was just an empty threat.

You are probably correct. I suppose the driver could have pulled off at the next truck stop if needed. Anyhow, I wasn't about to test that policy!

To put this back on the Cascades topic, it did make me appreciate a good old train ride...and that even the Thruway bus experience is much better than what I experienced last evening.

 

[Willbridge]

Flix is very flexible, which can result in slapdash stuff like a short run trailing a long-distance run. The 8 p.m. EUG trip was launched before Greyhound runs were integrated with Flix. They tend to patch up things through the variable fares, somewhat like Amtrak. I follow PDX<>EUG and often the 8 p.m. trip is notably cheaper than on the leader. It's big on Sunday night, of course. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually adjust it.

Coming back to the Cascades corridor, the reason for that gap in the Amtrak/Thruway service is that it is a connection from Train 509. In turn, it departs Seattle a bit later than desirable in order to get Sounder peak trains out of the way.

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, April 7th as of Thursday night. Note that Flix has restored their $3.99 service charge, included here, after trying a $4.50 service charge. Also, Flix has switched to fixed bottom rates for advance sales on the Cascades corridor. Weekday PDX<>SEA advance sales start at $30. Amtrak has gone to fixed bottom/top rates for the Business Class.

0645 AT $27/$87
0700 FB $43
0820 AT $37/SO
0830 FB $42
1040 FB $42
1040 AT $53/SO
1200 FB $42
1410 AT $66/$87
1500 FB $42
1556 AT SO/--/$211
1755 AT $37/$87
1910 FB $42
1925 AT $37/$87
2115 FB $42

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $90/$150/$285 chng at Seattle
0700 FB $86 via Seattle
0950 FB $51 chng at Pasco
1200 FB $74 via Seattle
1645 AT $62/--/$212
1755 AT/NW $84/$134 chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes $3.99 service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages,
SO = Sold Out!

 

[Willbridge]

Here's the PDX to SEA line-up for Sunday, April 14th as of Wednesday night.

0645 AT $37/$87
0700 FB $32
0820 AT $53/$87
0830 FB $33
1040 FB $35
1040 AT $59/SO
1200 FB $35
1410 AT $66/SO
1500 FB $42
1556 AT SO/--/$211
1755 AT $47/$72
1910 FB $34
1925 AT $37/$87
2115 FB $33

And here's PDX to SPK:

0645 AT $84/$134/$285 chng at Seattle
0700 FB $64 via Seattle
0950 FB $50 chng at Pasco
1200 FB $64 via Seattle
1645 AT $50/--/$212
1755 AT/NW $98/$123 chng at Seattle (not a Thruway service)

AT = Amtrak Coach/Business/Sleeper,
FB = Flixbus includes $3.99 service charge rounded,
NW = Northwestern Stages,
SO = Sold Out!

 

[Willbridge]

Note to moderators - yes, this is from elsewhere, but it's intended for better understanding of ground corridors.

Hanover central bus station to Berlin central bus station (which is on the west end) on the autobahn A-2 is 171 miles (276 km), the same as Portland curbside (near Union Station) to Seattle's former Greyhound station via I-5. The rail route downtown to downtown is about 10 miles (16 km) longer on both corridors.

Daylight running time for Portland > Seattle buses ranges from 3:35 to 3:45. Daylight running time for Hanover > Berlin buses ranges from 3:15 to 3:45. Both corridors include a mixture of stopping services and one-stop expresses (the one-stop in both countries being a suburban rail focal point of the larger metro area). Both corridors are supplemented by long-distance trips stopping in the corridor. Both corridors include tricks that offer lower bus fares by transfers for power users.

The big difference is in the rail service. Portland > Seattle trains range from 3:25 to 3:55. Hanover to Berlin through trains range from 1:40 to 2:57. (The slowest trains and buses run via Magdeburg). Both corridors include tricks that offer lower rail fares by transfers for power users.

Now what does this do with fares?
(For international comparisons 1 € = $ 1.06 and $ 1 = 0.94 €)

At marginal hours, Amtrak coach fares PDX > SEA are approximately the same as bus fares (see this thread above). Deutsche Bahn 2nd Class fares in those hours are as much as twice the bus fares. The lowest through rail fare is on the "owl" train added after the ideology-driven end of overnight trains had resulted in bizarre itineraries linking suburban trains from one metro area to the next. That is also the slowest train, making more stops. It is possible that in both countries the rail operator is holding a rate umbrella for political reasons to prevent undercutting the bus operator.

Both Amtrak and Deutsche Bahn employ extreme peaks in fares, but still have sold-out trains due to equipment limitations.

Enough background. What appears as a rule of thumb is that a train service taking half of the freeway/autobahn time can charge twice the bus fare.


HANOVER>BERLIN comparison

Fares in Euros for travel on 14 Apr 24, as of 11 Apr 24.
Flix includes 1€ service charge.

0230 FB 32
0240 DB 36
0400 FB 27
0510 FB 17
0540 FB 27
0631 DB 32 (originates in Hanover)
0831 DB 50
0922 DB 50
0931 DB 50
1031 DB 56
1100 FB 28
1122 DB 60
1131 DB 70
1144 FT 27
1231 DB 70
1300 FB 32
1322 DB 70
1331 DB 70
1430 FB 32
1431 DB 70
1522 DB 80
1531 DB 80
1631 DB 70
1700 FB 32
1721 DB 90
1731 DB 70
1831 DB 80
1910 FB 32
1922 DB 70
1931 DB 70
1944 FT 42
2020 FB 32
2031 DB 70
2122 DB 70
2131 DB 56
2231 DB 60
2331 DB 60
2350 FB 32
0240 DB 36

DB = Deutsche Bahn through trains, city center to city center. Bistro service.
FB = Flix Bus through bus, central station to central station.
FT = Flix Train through trains, city center to city center. No food service.

Note = Both operators offer service to alternative metro points, often for higher fares.

 

[Willbridge]

Oregon DOT has refreshed their Cascades website. I'll bet that till now few people knew that the corridor trains are the official railroad of the Portland Rose Festival!

https://amtrakoregon.com/?msclkid=0...e to portland&utm_content=Seattle to Portland

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Oregon DOT has refreshed their Cascades website. I'll bet that till now few people knew that the corridor trains are the official railroad of the Portland Rose Festival!

https://amtrakoregon.com/?msclkid=0ce06f086c6c185d8098092c2ee81051&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Search Ads Location Seattle to Portland&utm_term=amtrak train from seattle to portland&utm_content=Seattle to Portland

My wife's on the Rose Fest Board, I'll have to ask if she knows.

 

[Harmon Shay]

If so, that's great! The Cascades could use some promotion beyond the news stories at the time the two new round trips between Seattle and Portland were added.

 

[Willbridge]

My wife's on the Rose Fest Board, I'll have to ask if she knows.

Good idea! It'd be interesting, too, to know if ODOT has done more than having an attractive website and buying some MSN ads.

For readers unfamiliar with the Portland Rose Festival, it's focused on the second biggest floral parade in the U.S. and with over a week of events it generates transport activity.

1961 - Check the billboard for the SP's idea of promotion.


1968 - One of the highlights is the Rose Festival Fleet, also known as the Navy coming upstream to spawn. Next time you ride Amtrak over the Steel Bridge, picture the cruiser U.S.S. St. Paul squeezing through.


1968 - Cruiser assisted by sternwheeler Portland clears the Broadway Bridge. The fleet's arrival and departure make for interesting traffic on the bridges.

 

[Asher]

Good idea! It'd be interesting, too, to know if ODOT has done more than having an attractive website and buying some MSN ads.

For readers unfamiliar with the Portland Rose Festival, it's focused on the second biggest floral parade in the U.S. and with over a week of events it generates transport activity.

1961 - Check the billboard for the SP's idea of promotion.
View attachment 36544

1968 - One of the highlights is the Rose Festival Fleet, also known as the Navy coming upstream to spawn. Next time you ride Amtrak over the Steel Bridge, picture the cruiser U.S.S. St. Paul squeezing through.
View attachment 36545

1968 - Cruiser assisted by sternwheeler Portland clears the Broadway Bridge. The fleet's arrival and departure make for interesting traffic on the bridges.
View attachment 36546

Looks like a special day for all aboard the Portland.