Handoff process: Amtrak trains moving from one host rr to another?

[Phil S]

How does this work, say as #7 goes westward and transitions onto BNSF road? Is that CP track west into MInneapolis? Which host rr ends in Minneapolis doesn't really affect my question, though I would like to have the details correct.

But, details aside,what happens when Amtrak (or for that matter a through freight) crosses over from one Class I rr (call it A) to another (call it B)? How early does the B dispatcher get told about delays and thus expected times of arrival onto their road? Or does this vary across all the relevant rr pairs? Or maybe some pairs of Class 1s share their dispatch info?

Just curious how much these handoffs work and whether they might be slowing things down and whether there might be some simple fisxes.

Cheers (and thanks),,

Phil-s

 

[neroden]

I don't know, but I can tell you a few things. I've never heard the dispatcher side of the conversation. Amtrak usually switches to the new railroad's channel *significantly before* (minutes before, miles before) actually entering the new railroad's track. Presumably after the dispatcher on the old railroad has told them they're clear and authorized to the boundary with the new railroad.

The dispatchers apparently talk to each other on the phone.

 

[jis]

Should in principle be very similar to ATC handover of an aircraft from one sector to another. Inform new frequency for comms and give clearance to proceed to next sector. The latter in the case of trains is most likely done through home signal indication. The former is identified by an RR Channel.

 

[Thirdrail7]

A lot of connecting railroads have partial model boards of the adjacent railroad and can see the train approaching from the other host. They can display a signal as they approach or wait for them to confirm contact, particularly if they are on another channel.

 

[jis]

Yeah, I did see that at both the SEPTA control center in Philly and the SunRail Control Center in Debary.

 

[battalion51]

Typically they can see each other's boards, in whole or in part, so they can see what is coming their way and line things up accordingly. The operating crew already has their paperwork in hand from when they initially went to work for all railroads they will traverse. If you think about it, the handoff occurs even when you don't change railroads, when you cross from one dispatchers territory to another there is a handoff.

 

[Phil S]

That all makes good sense. Thanks. Now I'm wondering about how scheduling vs. dispatch play out, especially across railroads, but we can leave that for another time.

 

[neroden]

It strikes me that there's a safety hazard in the procedure: if there's a hazard discovered on the tracks and the phone call is made, this is routed to the dispatcher for those tracks. But if the train has already changed channels to the channel for the track they're *going* to enter, the dispatcher won't be able to reach them directly....

....so it would be bad to have grade crossings near the handoff points.

 

[Lonestar648]

I don't know for sure, but I suspect that the crew radios can monitor multiple channels so communications are not lost. This is standard on most commercial two-way radios.

 

[zephyr17]

Being a scanner addict, I hear the road channel changes regularly. They generally only happen just before the geographical point. In any case, in CTC territory, which compromise a great deal of Amtrak's routes, there just isn't that much talk with the dispatcher. The most regular communication with the dispatcher in CTC is just the engineer reporting times at station stops. The road channels are used much more for communication between the head end and the conductor, talking to MoW crews whose work zones the train is approaching and "roll bys" from passing trains. In CTC, the dispatcher has the tool of controlling signal aspect and authorization to occupy track conferred by signal indication. They don't need the radio for that.

In the case of a hazard on the tracks, probably a vehicle stuck at a grade crossing, getting it phoned in and to the dispatcher is a much longer process than the matter of a very,very few minutes (like 1 or 2) that they are on a channel prematurely.

Also bear in mind that these procedures are EXACTLY the same for freight traffic, which greatly exceeds Amtrak traffic. That is where the real opportunity for problems are.

 

[MikefromCrete]

The worst example of handoffs between railroads is the Cardinal/Hoosier State between Dyer, IN, and Chicago Union Station. The northbound train, for example, leaves the CSX, ex-Monon, just north of Dyer, onto the CN, ex-GTW, now dispatched by CSX, to the Union Pacific at Thornton Junction, then onto the Belt Railway of Chicago at 87th Street, then to Metra a few blocks north, then to NS at 59th Street, then to Amtrak at 21st St. One miscue can tie up the train for who know how long.

 

[Thirdrail7]

It strikes me that there's a safety hazard in the procedure: if there's a hazard discovered on the tracks and the phone call is made, this is routed to the dispatcher for those tracks. But if the train has already changed channels to the channel for the track they're *going* to enter, the dispatcher won't be able to reach them directly....

....so it would be bad to have grade crossings near the handoff points.

If it is a known condition, the dispatchers will advise each other, so each one will be able to communicate with the train. If the train fails to respond on one channel, the other dispatcher can advise them.

Additionally, the dispatchers can often reach out on an adjacent channel and communicate with a train. Fi

Finally, most operating rule books allow for the dispatcher to withdraw a permissive signal in an emergency if they can't reach the train although all efforts should be made to contact the train first.

Some operating instructions also call for trains to broadcast emergency transmissions on both channels if a train is approaching an area near two frequencies.

Obviously, this is not foolproof. I can think of a scenario that occurred just as you mentioned Neroden. A train was moving northbound at a good rate of speed. As you mentioned, it was getting close to a division/radio frequency change. Prior to the change, the northbound engineer spied something in the distance. It was the emergency strobe light of a P40. He attempted to raise the other train and call the dispatcher. When there was no response, the engineer applied the brakes and changed over channels. There was no response on that channel either. When he got to the area, he found the southbound train had hit a truck and derailed. The engineer and crew on the southbound train (and numerous passengers) were injured. No one on the southbound train had a chance to get off an emergency call prior to the derailment.

Fortunately, the northbound engineer saw the emergency strobe light in the distance and began braking.

Naturally, they were all removed and you don't see strobe lights of any kind on newer units. I believe the only Amtrak equipment that still has them are the AEM-7s, the cab cars, the cabbages and the F40 406 NPCU.

 

[TinCan782]

Being a scanner addict, I hear the road channel changes regularly. They generally only happen just before the geographical point. In any case, in CTC territory, which compromise a great deal of Amtrak's routes, there just isn't that much talk with the dispatcher. The most regular communication with the dispatcher in CTC is just the engineer reporting times at station stops. The road channels are used much more for communication between the head end and the conductor, talking to MoW crews whose work zones the train is approaching and "roll bys" from passing trains. In CTC, the dispatcher has the tool of controlling signal aspect and authorization to occupy track conferred by signal indication. They don't need the radio for that.

In the case of a hazard on the tracks, probably a vehicle stuck at a grade crossing, getting it phoned in and to the dispatcher is a much longer process than the matter of a very,very few minutes (like 1 or 2) that they are on a channel prematurely.

Also bear in mind that these procedures are EXACTLY the same for freight traffic, which greatly exceeds Amtrak traffic. That is where the real opportunity for problems are.

My observation as well...moving from one territory (dispatcher) to another very little radio chatter. Most of the time, you will only hear the head-end notify the conductor to change channels and the train continues on. Very little comms with the DS.

 

[neroden]

That's quite a story, ThirdRail -- sharp thinking on the part of the engineer of the northbound, who deserved a commendation. Pity they removed all the strobes!

 

[TinCan782]

I'll add an additional comment, on Southern California's Metrolink Ventura County line, quite often, before departing LAUS, I'll hear the engineer converse with the conductor regarding calling (cellphone) UP to get updates on any bulletins. etc. If nothing has changed when the train gets to the handoff to UP, there is nothing more than a frequency change. With some unexpected developing situation as described above radio will definitely come into play.