Here We Go Again

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Wanted to stay out of this one, but I can't let a falsehood go uncorrected.

Misguided or not, the entry into Iraq came on the back of UN inspectors being denied access. I personally believe that there were WMD but the slowness of behemoth countries to act allowed their concealment and WMDs are not something that the world can live along side.
UN inspectors were denied access earlier in the decade, but in late 2002, Sadaam Hussein invited inspectors back into his country. And they went. UN inspectors worked in Iraq in from January through March 2003, had found no WMDs so far, and announced they were months from verifying whether Iraq had disarmed as required. In March, they had to leave Iraq because the U.S. invaded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weap...ruction#Prelude

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_disarmam...risis#2002-2003

If you don't trust Wikipedia as a news source (and I wouldn't), I encourage you to click through to the reference articles.
 
And now we return to "Amtrak Discussion," our regularly scheduled program!
A major strength of Amtrak Unlimited is that folks are given wide berth to express their views. Discussions may digress and wander, but in my view that's as it should be. The common interest in Amtrak need not preclude other topics as they arise. I like to think of the widely-ranging discussions as things you might talk about when you meet somebody on a train. Sometimes enlightening, sometimes lame, but always new and interesting.
 
...I am generally a conservative that strongly believes in some basic principles. One of which is theft, in any form, is wrong. I don't care if it's from me in the form of taxation for the benefit of income re-distribution (I'm not opposed to some basic taxation for things such as defense or common transportation infrastructure which, if done reasonably, are very much needed) [emphasis added]...
So theft in any form is wrong, except for the theft that is good. Is that it? And what is it about Amtrak that makes its thievery OK? A consistent position would be that theft is wrong, therefore government must get its money voluntarily (eg, lotteries, fees for private contract enforcement through the courts, etc). As it is, your position seems to come down to one's opinion of which thefts are OK (apparently, Amtrak passes muster). What if your theft is my program? What if my theft is your program? Aren't we just arguing over the spoils of theft?
 
"And now we return to "Amtrak Discussion," our regularly scheduled program! "

AND, what do YOU think Bush is being told about Amtrak? What might be his source of information on the subject? Forget Republicanisms for the moment, those being "privatization", "free markets",

"drill in Alaska", "big oil" and all of the other euphemisms that seem to crop up that keep people from thinking independently. Where is the source of his information on the subject (Amtrak)?

And, no, I don't trust a wicked pedia that lets me and you make up the facts any more than I trust CNN to deliver hard news thru Robin Meade when they keep showing her legs in the morning or CBS (?) with Katy grinning. I want another Walter Kronkite. Iraq's leadership did not have the trust of the world about a serious subject during a period when we had been freshly whacked over the head with the WTC Towers. As I recall there was a lack of accountability for a number of serious weaponry during that time going on in Iraq.

And now, to really abuse you men, I'm going to remind you that my husband cannot find a can of peas in the cabinet when it's on the front row. They should have sent women to look for the WMD.

Whooz, are you available for another candidacy?
 
Whooz, are you available for another candidacy?
I hereby throw my fez in the ring. If there's an office open, and I'm around, run for it!

Two streetcars in every garage.

More pot for every two chickens.

Prosperity is just around the corner! (oh wait, that was Hoover)

Peace in our time. (oh wait, that was Chamberlain)

Maybe I should quit while I'm ahead.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
And, no, I don't trust a wicked pedia that lets me and you make up the facts any more than I trust CNN to deliver hard news thru Robin Meade when they keep showing her legs in the morning or CBS (?) with Katy grinning. I want another Walter Kronkite. Iraq's leadership did not have the trust of the world about a serious subject during a period when we had been freshly whacked over the head with the WTC Towers. As I recall there was a lack of accountability for a number of serious weaponry during that time going on in Iraq.
Guest,

I understand how you feel about this, and your post was kind of witty. But do you really expect the other members of this board to take your recollections of what you thought at the time, as a more authoritative source than the BBC, CNN, United Nations and Guardian, etc?

This is a serious matter that has gotten 4,000 boys (and girls) killed. Just on the U.S. side.
 
"This is a serious matter that has gotten 4,000 boys (and girls) killed. Just on the U.S. side. ""

Meatpuff, I fully understand, quite likely more than you, how serious the situation is. I not only just read through many of the UN Security Council Resolutions to see how deep/shallow they read (I believe in original sources- not wicked pedias- not Katys, not Robins, not Boortz, not Larry or Bill or other spins- perhaps a new generation has to be taught about original sources and issues of credibility) and realize that we both can find what we want out there to justify our own opinions. Having worked as one of 4 paid staff members on a gubernatorial campaign with the Dick Morris as its advisor and other names you'd recognize as frequent callers, I am FULLY aware of how news on deadline is created and biases that exist within the media. So, no, the sources quoted, other than the UN from its own website(as an original source) aren't good enough.

Having been a part of the military family (Ranger (1st and 3rd Batt), Airborne, 121st Military Intelligence, LRSU, 108th (?) Drill Sgt, 1??th Inf and Special Forces (I spent my honeymoon night inside the guarded concertina'd wire of the Ranger compound at Fort Benning, GA in the orderly room- he had to pull CQ that night) since the early 1980's and having just recently gotten to kiss my husband again (Mar 08) after his return from his Army tour of Kuwait/Iraq and not knowing if he will have to return AND knowing that too few of our country's citizens are bearing the physical burden of the war, I'm fully aware of how serious the situation and the costs, to both the soldiers, the families, and to the American and Iraqi peoples. Perhaps you or the others bear a greater burden. My hat is off to you for that.

Having rendered comfort to his young widow during the proceedings and recorded for posterity and for his children on film and in writing (the pictures are too controversial,the article is googlable but I prefer to remain anon on this board) the arrival of a fellow LRSU-Airborne-Ranger soldier's body from under the belly of a Delta jet while the Atlanta (world's busiest) airport stopped to pay their respect I, more than you, fully comprehend the cost of this war. AND, they are not BOYS and GIRLS. You might be surprised at the average age of the majority of our soldiers (most of whom are Army and Marine as they are the ground troops upon whose shoulders most of this war falls).

3/19/03- 6/5/08 as reported in the 16 June 08 Army Times (which I read regularly) : OIF US service member casualties: 4079, wounded in action 30,182. That's OIF. For OEF 10/1/01- 6/5/08 508 killed, wounded 20,042. Still missing or considered captured: 3. This does not include contractors or Iraqi civilians. Nor does it include those of other coalition countries. Whether the "in vain" argument comes up or not remember that each volunteered. But they only go when they are ordered and stay with the support of the American people upon whom they depend to make wise decisions after counting the costs.

Too few of our country's citizens are bearing the physical costs of this war. This is increasily evident in the bonuses required to maintain the existing troop strength and statements by individuals such as General Petraus that our "troops are stretched". Listen carefully when you hear these words. He's speaking the truth. That means it's either a draft or an end. It cannot go on like it is. The fiscal costs (and enormous waste) are too high for the rest of the country to handle and increasingly, it's the US in it alone as others draw down.

Our country's situation is very complex and the future is looking odd given the choice of candidates.

Which brings me back to the topic of Amtrak. I do not believe that our President gets given consistently, unbiased and reliable information on which to base his decisions. So,how DOES he get his information on Amtrak? And secondly, how many of you have given your informed opinions about Amtrak's future to his office?

PS: Grammar police: Just shoot me now.
 
And Whooz,

I don't know where you got that fetching fez, but here in the South, you can stand on the streets and collect money wearing them.
 
One more thought. The wounded numbers above do not count the wounds yet to surface which may take years.
 
"This is a serious matter that has gotten 4,000 boys (and girls) killed. Just on the U.S. side. ""
Meatpuff, I fully understand, quite likely more than you, how serious the situation is. I not only just read through many of the UN Security Council Resolutions to see how deep/shallow they read (I believe in original sources- not wicked pedias- not Katys, not Robins, not Boortz, not Larry or Bill or other spins- perhaps a new generation has to be taught about original sources and issues of credibility)

...

Our country's situation is very complex and the future is looking odd given the choice of candidates.

...
Well based on your response, I would say we disagree on little then. We both agree Wikipedia is unreliable, the situation in Iraq is serious, and that the U.S. invaded Iraq despite U.N. inspections for Iraqi WMDs that were ongoing with the Iraqi government's blessing. The latter point is especially important, since I first posted when someone got that fact wrong. And we as citizens need to have the facts straight. Especially with election day coming up!

The only point we might disagree is you trusting the U.N. more than the totality of the world news media. I definitely don't trust the U.S. government not to outright lie, so I don't completely trust a quasi-world government not to lie either.

Well, I have to go get ready to go on an actual trip on Amtrak! So I'm out!
 
...I am generally a conservative that strongly believes in some basic principles. One of which is theft, in any form, is wrong. I don't care if it's from me in the form of taxation for the benefit of income re-distribution (I'm not opposed to some basic taxation for things such as defense or common transportation infrastructure which, if done reasonably, are very much needed) [emphasis added]...
So theft in any form is wrong, except for the theft that is good. Is that it? And what is it about Amtrak that makes its thievery OK? A consistent position would be that theft is wrong, therefore government must get its money voluntarily (eg, lotteries, fees for private contract enforcement through the courts, etc). As it is, your position seems to come down to one's opinion of which thefts are OK (apparently, Amtrak passes muster). What if your theft is my program? What if my theft is your program? Aren't we just arguing over the spoils of theft?
The country survived for quite some time without an income tax it seems to me. I think it still could. Do we still need some method of paying for the common defense and to secure this country, sure we do. I'd suggest that if you made such a collection effort voluntary that you would end up with a much larger contribution. The problem is we have backed ourselves in a corner and extricating ourselves from spend your money state of thinking is going to be some tough medicine. It's easy to take a huge chunk of money from a small number of people. What a brilliant way to build a huge constituency that is totally dependent on you. Wreck the economy, take from those who will survive in spite of your efforts and make the rest dependent on your good will.

Brilliant.

As for Amtrak, I consider it part of a needed transportation infrastructure that has national security considerations. Therefore it is important and worthy of some form of funding.
 
"you trusting the U.N. more than the totality of the world news media"

Meatpuff,

I view the UN as a political organization with its own agenda and only go there to see what it has to say. I wouldn't say that I believe what it says, only that I would go there to see what it actually says. Make sense? I guess I trust it to put on its website what it said. That's all.

Going to original sources takes a lot of time and everything (except our beloved Amtrak) goes so fast.

Try to imagine how Bush gets his information and how reliable it is.
 
"This is a serious matter that has gotten 4,000 boys (and girls) killed. Just on the U.S. side. ""
Meatpuff, I fully understand, quite likely more than you, how serious the situation is. I not only just read through many of the UN Security Council Resolutions to see how deep/shallow they read (I believe in original sources- not wicked pedias- not Katys, not Robins, not Boortz, not Larry or Bill or other spins- perhaps a new generation has to be taught about original sources and issues of credibility) and realize that we both can find what we want out there to justify our own opinions. Having worked as one of 4 paid staff members on a gubernatorial campaign with the Dick Morris as its advisor and other names you'd recognize as frequent callers, I am FULLY aware of how news on deadline is created and biases that exist within the media. So, no, the sources quoted, other than the UN from its own website(as an original source) aren't good enough.

Having been a part of the military family (Ranger (1st and 3rd Batt), Airborne, 121st Military Intelligence, LRSU, 108th (?) Drill Sgt, 1??th Inf and Special Forces (I spent my honeymoon night inside the guarded concertina'd wire of the Ranger compound at Fort Benning, GA in the orderly room- he had to pull CQ that night) since the early 1980's and having just recently gotten to kiss my husband again (Mar 08) after his return from his Army tour of Kuwait/Iraq and not knowing if he will have to return AND knowing that too few of our country's citizens are bearing the physical burden of the war, I'm fully aware of how serious the situation and the costs, to both the soldiers, the families, and to the American and Iraqi peoples. Perhaps you or the others bear a greater burden. My hat is off to you for that.

Having rendered comfort to his young widow during the proceedings and recorded for posterity and for his children on film and in writing (the pictures are too controversial,the article is googlable but I prefer to remain anon on this board) the arrival of a fellow LRSU-Airborne-Ranger soldier's body from under the belly of a Delta jet while the Atlanta (world's busiest) airport stopped to pay their respect I, more than you, fully comprehend the cost of this war. AND, they are not BOYS and GIRLS. You might be surprised at the average age of the majority of our soldiers (most of whom are Army and Marine as they are the ground troops upon whose shoulders most of this war falls).

3/19/03- 6/5/08 as reported in the 16 June 08 Army Times (which I read regularly) : OIF US service member casualties: 4079, wounded in action 30,182. That's OIF. For OEF 10/1/01- 6/5/08 508 killed, wounded 20,042. Still missing or considered captured: 3. This does not include contractors or Iraqi civilians. Nor does it include those of other coalition countries. Whether the "in vain" argument comes up or not remember that each volunteered. But they only go when they are ordered and stay with the support of the American people upon whom they depend to make wise decisions after counting the costs.

Too few of our country's citizens are bearing the physical costs of this war. This is increasily evident in the bonuses required to maintain the existing troop strength and statements by individuals such as General Petraus that our "troops are stretched". Listen carefully when you hear these words. He's speaking the truth. That means it's either a draft or an end. It cannot go on like it is. The fiscal costs (and enormous waste) are too high for the rest of the country to handle and increasingly, it's the US in it alone as others draw down.

Our country's situation is very complex and the future is looking odd given the choice of candidates.

Which brings me back to the topic of Amtrak. I do not believe that our President gets given consistently, unbiased and reliable information on which to base his decisions. So,how DOES he get his information on Amtrak? And secondly, how many of you have given your informed opinions about Amtrak's future to his office?

PS: Grammar police: Just shoot me now.
I see the war from a different POV than many others. I see it as a moral issue. Just with other Genocides, we have to stand up and say it's just not right to exterminate huge numbers of people based on some ethnic criteria. Iraq is a clear case of mass murder and attempts at Genocide. How we can turn our heads to such things is beyond me. We need to stand up and warn the world, if you are intent on mass murder, you will have to deal with us, no mercy. I'm all for diplomacy, don't get me wrong but when we get the stick out, we should get the STICK out, without looking back.

I agree guest, the American people need to feel the impact of this and all war. They need to be more of a part of it. They need to see the mass graves of exterminated villages. They need to see women cowering in fear because of men who don't think twice to beat them in public. We need to see young women murdered by family because they dared to dishonor them. They need to see hunger and death caused by rouge governments more concerned with military might than taking care of the people. They need to see 12 year olds toting around sub-machine guns. We are so insulated here, protected and very naive. Even most of our troops don't see these things.

To me, the solution is plain. We have to understand that war is for killing, blowing up and destroying. When we commit to it we must go in and do just that, we bomb the enemy into the stone age and then, and only then, do we help them rebuild (this was not done in Iraq from my POV). If people come blowing up cars, we find them, and we deal with them in a vicious manner that will make the next guy think twice. This will save more of our lives in the end.

Find the builder of the car bomb. Teach them that there is a price to killing. Right now, it's all just martarisim. Is this moral? I don't know, but sometimes the long term moral good requires some nasty short term morally ambiguous decisions. Does that make us as bad as the terrorist or the person planning on genocide? I don't think so because the difference is we DO stop, we DO help them rebuild and in the end if we have done our job right, they should be better off. Have we changed their culture, sure, but cultures where Genocide is OK need changing.

Then, after we have dealt with the situation, we show them how wonderful peace and freedom can really be.

I know, I'm probably on the edge..... let's all sing coombiah...... Until the Nuke goes off in NYC, then will we wake up and realize that there are bad guys out there worth killing?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Members and guests, we have been lenient with the course of the conversation in this thread. While it originally started out about Amtrak, it has moved off course. Several posts have been removed and others edited for content.

 

Lets try to keep this about Amtrak, please, and even though there is a political component to it, we would appreciate everyone using some restraint in their non-Amtrak comments.

 

 

Thanks!!.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The country survived for quite some time without an income tax it seems to me.
This is another version of "I want everything, but don't charge me for it."

Perhaps such people are right, and should be allowed to opt out of taxes entirely. But in that case they should then be billed directly for the true cost of services. Police. Fire. Sewage. Use of roads. Courts of law. Transit. Need I go on?

Of course, direct billing for services would require another bureaucracy of the type the wannabe freeloaders claim to abhor.

Get real.
 
Several posts have been removed and others edited for content.
That would apparently include my post, since it is nowhere to be found. Anybody who makes repeated attempts to kill passenger rail - Amtrak - while running our great nation into the ground, deserves to be badmouthed at every opportunity.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Several posts have been removed and others edited for content.
That would apparently include my post, since it is nowhere to be found. Anybody who makes repeated attempts to kill passenger rail - Amtrak - while running our great nation into the ground, deserves to be badmouthed at every opportunity.
It would indeed.
 
The country survived for quite some time without an income tax it seems to me. I think it still could. Do we still need some method of paying for the common defense and to secure this country, sure we do. I'd suggest that if you made such a collection effort voluntary that you would end up with a much larger contribution. [...]
As for Amtrak, I consider it part of a needed transportation infrastructure that has national security considerations. Therefore it is important and worthy of some form of funding.
Then you are indeed saying that theft in all its forms is bad except for theft in the name of Amtrak, which is good, the difference being that you consider it worthy. Also, I infer from your comment about the country surviving without an income tax that taxes called "income" are theft but taxes called "excise" are not theft, since taxes called "excise" preceded taxes called "income." However, since excise taxes are no more voluntary than income taxes, how are they not theft as well? I'll admit I may have drawn the wrong inference there, but it's what I saw.
 
A poll with the question, "Is it okay to unconditionally meet with Anti-American Foreign Leaders?" "paid for by John McCain 2008" just popped up at the top of the screen.

Alan, how does that happen?
 
A poll with the question, "Is it okay to unconditionally meet with Anti-American Foreign Leaders?" "paid for by John McCain 2008" just popped up at the top of the screen.
Alan, how does that happen?
Just luck of the draw. Those ads help to pay some of the bills that this forum incurs, most of which are paid by the owner Anthony. Thanks, Anthony! :)

It's a service that provides those ads and they try to put up things that are related to the page content, since this topic has gone political, I'm guessing that they selected some political ads.
 
And while I'm here let me also say a bit about this topic. We have let things stray a bit here and head off into the political arena, something that is both important to all of us and yet is often contentious. As I sit here tonight I've been watching a very sad NBC special on the life of the just passed Tim Russert, a true loss IMHO.

One phrase that they just quoted Tim saying I think is particularly important to remember in this topic. He was talking about the political process and just how contentious it can be, but he closed with the following poignant remark "when all is said and done, what a remarkable country we live in and I can't imagine living anywhere else." Or something to that effect, I may have gotten a bit of it wrong since I'm winging it from memory.

I think that we should all remember those words from a man who, while always asking the hard questions of our politicians and never letting them wriggle out of an answer, still always treated everyone with the utmost respect. He was firm, but polite. He was strong, but never insulting. IMHO a very remarkable man! :)

Goodbye and god speed Tim!
 
While I'm not the religious sort, there was a sort of political church that I attended every Sunday morning. It was called Meet The Press, and the pastor was Tim Russert. I will miss him greatly.
 
And while I'm here let me also say a bit about this topic. We have let things stray a bit here and head off into the political arena, something that is both important to all of us and yet is often contentious. As I sit here tonight I've been watching a very sad NBC special on the life of the just passed Tim Russert, a true loss IMHO.
One phrase that they just quoted Tim saying I think is particularly important to remember in this topic. He was talking about the political process and just how contentious it can be, but he closed with the following poignant remark "when all is said and done, what a remarkable country we live in and I can't imagine living anywhere else." Or something to that effect, I may have gotten a bit of it wrong since I'm winging it from memory.

I think that we should all remember those words from a man who, while always asking the hard questions of our politicians and never letting them wriggle out of an answer, still always treated everyone with the utmost respect. He was firm, but polite. He was strong, but never insulting. IMHO a very remarkable man! :)

Goodbye and god speed Tim!
Indeed, I enjoyed Tim and his books. This is a remarkable country, where we are free to have incredibly divergent points of view and not fear for our lives because we run contrary to the "establishment". I salute everyone here, those who I agree with and those who i do not.
 
I will try and keep this "on topic". A wonderful book to read while travelling on our redheaded, bucked tooth, stepchild of the national transportation system is "Big Russ and I" by the one and only Tim Russert. My sis said "his family was so much like ours" and it sure was. Wonderful book, wonderful writer, wonderful person. I'm gonna miss him as well!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top