Rail Freak
Engineer
Are there any Heritage Sleepers in use today?
RF
RF
Heritage Sleepers
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ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
No, not on Amtrak at least. The FRA mandated that all toilets have a waste tank and be dumped properly, the older cars pretty much... dumped wherever they were. This attracted railkill. In the end that was just a nail in the coffin for the sleepers. Amtrak had been struggling with what to do with them for awhile.
I believe Amtrak has 3 they use in special service, the Pacific Command #10020, the Pacific Patrol #10021, and the 2505 if I remember correctly. I'm not sure exactly what purpose they serve. Possibly something to do with Amtrak Police (training?), but I really don't know.
wayman
Engineer
How difficult is it to just outfit Heritage sleepers with RV toilets? I assume that's how all the private owners dealt with this requirement.
Does Amtrak still own other Heritage sleepers than the three in use as business cars, or did they sell/scrap everything else?
Shotgun7
Service Attendant
They own quite a few. Up until 2007, the crew dorms on the Silvers, Crescent, and Lake Shore were Heritage 10-6 sleepers. Their age coerced them into retirement and they now sit motionless at Beech Grove. With such an obvious lack of Viewliners, that decision still absolutely baffles my mind.
I believe that most of the 10-6 sleepers were converted to crew dorms and some of the roomettes removed so they will never be used again for revenue service. I believe I saw somewhere in this forum that one of the cars was assigned to Amtrak's Inspector General. I miss them, rattles, sqeaks, vibrations and all.
wayman
Engineer
What did they replace the roomettes with? A crew lounge/work area? If so, why would that make them ineligible for revenue service?
As far as ineligible for revenue service, there are alot of things working against them, age, revenue space, drop botom toilets, etc. It's my opinion they will never see revenue servcie again. I'm thinking the space was rearranged in the car to make room for a smoking lounge. It's been awhile and I can't readily find the info on the net.
Keep in mind that a roomette in a pre-Amtrak sleeping car was designed only for one passenger, not two as today. Not that much difference in size though.
So it would not be compatible space.
And those small rooms on the Viewliners were originally called economy bedrooms, then compartments(which was confusing since compartment in the preAmtrak past meant a very large room), then only more recently roomettes.
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wayman
Engineer
I would think six bedrooms would yield pretty good revenue, and the rest of the car could be re-configured as needed. I actually don't think a private lounge for sleeper passengers is a drawback ... put a bar in there and have the SCA staff "cocktail hours" for sleeper passengers in the afternoon and in the late evening, and the lounge becomes revenue space.
And I just can't buy the excuse that replacing the toilets is too expensive or complicated to do.
Yes, the cars are old ... but they're plenty service-able. They were built to last. Look at VIA.
If I recall correctly, all bedrooms were removed for space to be used as a smoking lounge for passengers. The roomettes were used for crew dorm. Good idea, except the crew/union objected to passengers/smoke in 'their' car. So they soldiered on as dorms with a big vacant room where the bedrooms were. Another decent idea from Amtrak poorly executed (remind you of the CCC cars?).
Still, they were good cars and if had been properly maintained (such as the Budd's on Via) they would still make decent dorm space to free up Viewliner rooms. The 'lounge' room could be used as a non smoking lounge for sleeping car passengers. Or perhaps converted to baggage space to eliminate a baggage car. But Amtrak did nothing and I think they became rattle traps and it didn't make sense to haul a half empty car. What a waste.
Still, they were good cars and if had been properly maintained (such as the Budd's on Via) they would still make decent dorm space to free up Viewliner rooms. The 'lounge' room could be used as a non smoking lounge for sleeping car passengers. Or perhaps converted to baggage space to eliminate a baggage car. But Amtrak did nothing and I think they became rattle traps and it didn't make sense to haul a half empty car. What a waste.
It wasn't just the toilets, although that was part of the issue. In addition to the expense of retrofitting them for retention toilets, the cars were all coming due for their annual inspections which require 2 weeks worth of work and replacing various parts, as well as they were all due for a mandated truck replacement. Amtrak decided that those 3 factors simply made them far too costly to update and fix.
Remember Amtrak mothballed something like 100 Amfleets that were far younger than the Heritage equipment simply because they didn't have the money for needed repairs and inspections, and those cars weren't looking at the added expense of truck replacement and installing retention toilets.
As for VIA, while they do have regs to contend with, they AFAIK aren't as restrictive as the FRA's regs are. The Canadians IMHO don't seem to overreact quite as much as we do when bad things happen. We love to pass rules to make it look like we're making things safer or better, that don't always actually make sense, much less accomplish those goals.
Remember Amtrak mothballed something like 100 Amfleets that were far younger than the Heritage equipment simply because they didn't have the money for needed repairs and inspections, and those cars weren't looking at the added expense of truck replacement and installing retention toilets.
As for VIA, while they do have regs to contend with, they AFAIK aren't as restrictive as the FRA's regs are. The Canadians IMHO don't seem to overreact quite as much as we do when bad things happen. We love to pass rules to make it look like we're making things safer or better, that don't always actually make sense, much less accomplish those goals.
On the subject of combination bedroom lounge cars, I cannot emphasize enough how common that was in the pre Amtrak era. Just running through the names of railroads in my mind, it is hard to think of a single line which did not have sleeper lounges.
So it must have been a workable idea.
Some trains had sleeper lounges and a coach lounge.
Others had maybe a sleeper lounge for sleeper patrons and a full lounge car for all patrons.
It goes on and on.
Of course there were also diner lounges, coffee shop lounges, grill lounges, etc,on it goes.
Some trains had combination cars because their ridership was low and did not need a full version of each car. But other trains had lots of passengers and needed combination cars in addition to the regular full size cars.
So it must have been a workable idea.
Some trains had sleeper lounges and a coach lounge.
Others had maybe a sleeper lounge for sleeper patrons and a full lounge car for all patrons.
It goes on and on.
Of course there were also diner lounges, coffee shop lounges, grill lounges, etc,on it goes.
Some trains had combination cars because their ridership was low and did not need a full version of each car. But other trains had lots of passengers and needed combination cars in addition to the regular full size cars.
TVRM610
Conductor
Yes heritage cars were built to last but that doesn't mean they should keep going and going and going when better options exist. Heritage cars ride very different than "modern" cars. I think it would make more sense to convert some amfleets into Slumbercoach type cars than to try to revive Heritage sleepers. You would really need to rebuild so much of the car by the time you rebuilt rooms, add the needed plumbing, and spruce up the car... add to that replacing trucks and you are looking at a pretty high price tag I would guess.
Now IF amtrak had the money, and they had plenty of these available, and it was actually cheaper rebuilding them then buying new cars, it might make sense to rebuild enough to place on a few trains in leu of viewliners which could then be used elsewhere.
So I guess the question still remains.. does Amtrak still actually own these sleepers? Or did they sell/scrap them all?
Now IF amtrak had the money, and they had plenty of these available, and it was actually cheaper rebuilding them then buying new cars, it might make sense to rebuild enough to place on a few trains in leu of viewliners which could then be used elsewhere.
So I guess the question still remains.. does Amtrak still actually own these sleepers? Or did they sell/scrap them all?
How much could it cost to bring the Amfleet up to date? And as opposed to what....buying new cars? It couldn't be more than a fraction of that expense.
I believe that it would be a gross error for Amtrak to even think of discarding Amfleet, which could still be running strong when Acela and Talgo cars are recycled into razor blades.
Amtrak had already restored to service some of those mothballed Amfleets over the past 2 years or so. The bulk of those remaining, if not all, are now being given a second lease on life thanks to the Stimulus. You can pull up Amtrak's report on how its spending the stimulus monies if you would like a better idea on how much it is costing per car to bring them back. I don't recall the numbers at the moment.
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I saw one of them in WUS on 1/8/10. It was coupled to a MARC bi-level that looked in disrepair. The sleeper/dorm car looked well maintained, the skin was shiny and paint looked fresh.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
I am sure the Viewliners are more rattly than the Heritage cars ever were. Sometimes riding on the Lake Shore I felt like standing in the hall and telling the car to shut the heck up. I mean everything rattled. Doors in their sockets. The upper bunks in the roomettes rattled, up or down. I have seen 20 year old Carpenter school buses run down the road more silently than the Viewliners do. And if you know bus-builders, you know Carpenter didn't know how to build them.
Keep in mind, and this is important, VIA has always maintained its equipment better and used it less than Amtrak has. Amtrak, especially once you get to the mid-80s, ran its equipment into the ground. I have often said they are a train system, as it stands, that requires $2 billion to run and 2000 cars to service it. And it has $1.6 billion and 1650 cars. And they still manage to run that system. Partly by stressing that equipment to the breaking point.
You want a miracle? The Heritage diners don't crack into pieces. The Viewliners don't constantly drop large pieces of themselves around the countryside. The Superliner Is, for petes sake, still have a utilization rate of 85%! (That is, 85% of the cars built are still in service, and the number is supposed to go up to nearly 90% when the stimulous package is done.) Please, tell me of brand of transportation equipment that still has 85% of its numbers giving 110% at 30+ years of age!
These aren't well treated antiques. These are beaten into the ground, at speeds VIA couldn't comprehend, over roads rougher than VIA has ever known. Budd built their cars well. But they didn't build them out of divinity.
The Viewliners are falling apart. It is amazing they are the only ones!
Keep in mind, and this is important, VIA has always maintained its equipment better and used it less than Amtrak has. Amtrak, especially once you get to the mid-80s, ran its equipment into the ground. I have often said they are a train system, as it stands, that requires $2 billion to run and 2000 cars to service it. And it has $1.6 billion and 1650 cars. And they still manage to run that system. Partly by stressing that equipment to the breaking point.
You want a miracle? The Heritage diners don't crack into pieces. The Viewliners don't constantly drop large pieces of themselves around the countryside. The Superliner Is, for petes sake, still have a utilization rate of 85%! (That is, 85% of the cars built are still in service, and the number is supposed to go up to nearly 90% when the stimulous package is done.) Please, tell me of brand of transportation equipment that still has 85% of its numbers giving 110% at 30+ years of age!
These aren't well treated antiques. These are beaten into the ground, at speeds VIA couldn't comprehend, over roads rougher than VIA has ever known. Budd built their cars well. But they didn't build them out of divinity.
The Viewliners are falling apart. It is amazing they are the only ones!
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