Historic passenger rail traffic?

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danasgoodstuff

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Someone on a music forum claimed that the vast majority of NYC to Chicago passenger traffic in pre-Amtrak days went by the New York Central's water level route up the Hudson and then west, despite this being longer than the other possible routes via the Penn RR, etc. Where could I find go stats for passengers carried on various routes in the post WWII golden age?
 
The Pennsylvania Railroad carried as many passengers as the New York Central and had almost a many trains. The Erie also had 3 trains in each direction from Jersey City to Chicago. Until 1958, The Baltimore and Ohio had several trains from Jersey City to Chicago via Baltimore and Washington. Lackawanna/Nickel Plate had 2 trains with through cars from Hoboken to Chicago. Earlier there was another New York to Chicago route via the Lehigh Valley/CN/Grand Trunk Western. I have never seen any statistics as to how many passengers each route carried. I did see numbers of passengers when there were Train Off hearings but the Railroads were trying to kill the trains so they didn't look that great.
 
Yeah, I always have had the impression that the Central and the Pennsy were close to even on their New York City <> Chicago traffic. Checking my dad's convenient October 1944 Official Guide, here are the scheduled weekday departures from Englewood to NYC:

0030 P118/18 change at Pittsburgh and Philadelphia-30th St. Mail (Coaches)
0945 P52 The New Yorker
1004 N14 Interstate Express
1104 N06 Fifth Avenue Special
1145 P22 Manhattan Limited
1344 N66 Advance Commodore Vanderbilt
1345 P70 The Admiral
1414 N02 The Pacemaker (all reclining seat coaches)
1444 N68 Commodore Vanderbilt (sleepers only)
1445 P49 The General
1544 N26 20th Century Limited (all-room sleepers only)
1544 P28 Broadway Limited (all-room sleepers only)
1549 P76 The Trail Blazer (all reclining seat coaches)
1614 N268 Advance Water Level Limited
1644 N10 Water Level Limited
1645 P78 The Pennsylvanian
1745 P62 The Rainbow
1814 N22 Lake Shore Limited
2015 P02 Pennsylvania Limited
2215 P54 Gotham Limited
2330 P62/72 The Golden Triangle
2344 N30 Advance Forest City
2350 P44/24 change at Pittsburgh

Note that this does not include Michigan Central trains via Ontario. They operated out of Central Station, shared with the IC. And of course, it doesn't show the green flags for extra sections. The "Advance" trains were in cases when extra sections were run so frequently that it was better to schedule them.
 
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The Pennsylvania Railroad carried as many passengers as the New York Central and had almost a many trains. The Erie also had 3 trains in each direction from Jersey City to Chicago. Until 1958, The Baltimore and Ohio had several trains from Jersey City to Chicago via Baltimore and Washington. Lackawanna/Nickel Plate had 2 trains with through cars from Hoboken to Chicago. Earlier there was another New York to Chicago route via the Lehigh Valley/CN/Grand Trunk Western. I have never seen any statistics as to how many passengers each route carried. I did see numbers of passengers when there were Train Off hearings but the Railroads were trying to kill the trains so they didn't look that great.
Those secondary lines offered lower fares and access to intermediate points that were on neither of the big two lines.

TW27Jul29-02.jpg
 
Thanks very much for posting that interesting information. It is a bit distressing to read this information and then compare it to the pathetic service that we have left, especially the Boston section of the Lake Shore when it runs.
Of course, I left out the Boston sections. Of the Central, the most famous Chicago<>Boston service was the solid New England States, supplemented by through cars on others of the NYC trains. On the Pennsy there was a Pittsburgh<>Boston overnight train.
 
The New York Central route was longer in mileage than the Pennsylvania but was fully competitive in terms of scheduling. (No mountains to climb meant sustained higher speeds.) I don't have an easily accessible source for actual ridership numbers, but as Willbridge's table above suggests, the NYC and Pennsy were comparable in terms of their number of departures, fleet sizes, etc., so I'd expect the number of passengers carried was similar.

The Erie took several hours longer, with many more intermediate stops, and consequently carried relatively few through travelers. Plus its eastern terminal was in Jersey City rather than Manhattan. My father-in-law used to tell a joke about the New York woman "who wanted to get to Chicago in the worst way" and was told, "Well, take the Erie." But for people in Hornell or Jamestown, N.Y., or Huntington, Ind., it was a good way to get to either New York or Chicago.
 
That Broadway Limited eastward, ran the trip in 15 hours and 30 minutes, the all-time fastest schedule on the route. While the New York Central added coaches to its Twentieth Century Limited in 1958, the Broadway remained all-Pullman until the merger with the NYC ten years later.

For those wanting even more variety, one could travel New York to Chicago via the C&O or N&W via Virginia with just one change ....
 
While the New York Central added coaches to its Twentieth Century Limited in 1958, the Broadway remained all-Pullman until the merger with the NYC ten years later.
I don't believe that that is correct. I seem to recall that coaches were added to the Broadway at least several months or a year before the merger. However I am only going from my memory here so corrections would certainly be welcome.
 
I don't believe that that is correct. I seem to recall that coaches were added to the Broadway at least several months or a year before the merger. However I am only going from my memory here so corrections would certainly be welcome.
I also quoted from memory, but just looked it up in Wiki...says the Broadway Limited ended its all Pullman status, the last overnight train in the US to do so, on December 13, 1967, and the merger was effective on Feb 1, 1968....so apparently your recollection is better...:)
 
I also quoted from memory, but just looked it up in Wiki...says the Broadway Limited ended its all Pullman status, the last overnight train in the US to do so, on December 13, 1967, and the merger was effective on Feb 1, 1968....so apparently your recollection is better...:)
It's actually amazing that it lasted as an all-room train till then. About 10 days earlier, the Century had been withdrawn altogether, replaced on a much slower schedule with an unnamed amalgam of the remnants of the New England States and Wolverine. By late '67, it seems everything in the Northeast was kind of a wreck.
 
It's actually amazing that it lasted as an all-room train till then. About 10 days earlier, the Century had been withdrawn altogether, replaced on a much slower schedule with an unnamed amalgam of the remnants of the New England States and Wolverine. By late '67, it seems everything in the Northeast was kind of a wreck.
True, but The Broadway still was "given the railroad", by the new Penn Central, and it was kept at a higher standard of equipment, traiin handling, and service, above all other trains, until the Metroliner's arrived a year later. Even in its early Amtrak years, it was given one of the first set of refurbed cars.
 
Growing up in Delaware we had a choice of the B&O or PRR to New York or points west. The prevailing opinion was if you’re on business take the PRR but leisure travel take the B&O. The PRR had efficient if brusque customer service. The B&O was slower and had older but well maintained equipment and employees were unfailingly courteous with outstanding service and great food.
 
Growing up in Delaware we had a choice of the B&O or PRR to New York or points west. The prevailing opinion was if you’re on business take the PRR but leisure travel take the B&O. The PRR had efficient if brusque customer service. The B&O was slower and had older but well maintained equipment and employees were unfailingly courteous with outstanding service and great food.
The B&O definitely had the reputation for excellent service. It was well before my time, but when my father-in-law was traveling back and forth between New York and Washington in the late '30s, he said he took the B&O whenever he could, even though it was slower and required going from the CNJ terminal in Jersey City, because the B&O's trains and service were wonderful when compared with the PRR's, which were, as you say, efficient but crowded and hectic.

And of course the Capitol Limited had a fine reputation right up until Amtrak Day, by which time the PC trains were mostly rather sketchy, the Broadway possibly excepted.
 
Just a comment: Never have understood why neither NYC nor Pennsy ever ran a fast day train between New York and Chicago similar to ICRR's City of New Orleans between Chicago and New Orleans. The ICRR ran a 16 1/2 hour schedule. Looks like either one could have done a 16 hour schedule between the end points.
I can't either. Looking at both of their westward timetables, they had morning trains from New York to Buffalo or Pittsburgh, but neither could get you into Chicago in the late evening from there. Both had a long gap between early evening, and the next morning arriving into Chicago... 🤔
 
Just a comment: Never have understood why neither NYC nor Pennsy ever ran a fast day train between New York and Chicago similar to ICRR's City of New Orleans between Chicago and New Orleans. The ICRR ran a 16 1/2 hour schedule. Looks like either one could have done a 16 hour schedule between the end points.
I think the only try at something of that sort was the B&O speed-record set between Chicago and Washington with RDC's. They certainly had the ability to run a daylight.

I read somewhere that the IC's CNO was weak south of Jackson. That would fit with the Shasta Daylight's poor rider experience on the last couple of hours of its long run. The Trailways day run that imitated the Shasta Daylight was discontinued before 1980. Greyhound's lasted longer, with connections at both ends, but it was one of the first Portland<>San Francisco trips eliminated.
 
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I read somewhere that the IC's CNO was weak south of Jackson. That would fit with the Shasta Daylight's poor rider experience on the last couple of hours of its long run.
Don't know if I would call it "weak" but the load was significantly heavier north of Memphis. Since my first couple college years were spent at UT Martin, in Martin TN, I was a fairly regular rider on Sunday afternoons Memphis to Fulton KY, 1962-1964. (I then hitchhiked the 10 miles south on US 45 to get to Martin,) Thus I saw the regular Memphis moves about once a month for two years. In a nominal 10 minute stop, an extra diesel, an RPO and two or more coaches were normally added at Memphis. A usual Sunday had a hundred plus people boarding at Memphis. How many deboarded, I do not know, as they had a single track between platforms, deboarding out one side and then letting us on on the other. On one occasion, I think it was the Sunday after Thanksgiving, but I am not certain, now 60 years later, they added four coaches. They also had people boarding these coaches until they were full before the train pulled in. Usually my class schedule was such I could not make the southbound equivalent on Fridays. However a couple times I did. There was one student from New Orleans who did the CNO both ways when he went home. He did say the load was light south of Jackson, and also that if at all late the train simply flew down the track. (At that time Jackson MS to Hammond LA was double track.) The usual train north of Memphis was about 16 cars and either 3 or 4 E-units on the front. These would be RPO, baggage, diner, round end observation and 12 coaches. I think on that long one we had 18 coaches. Another random thing: At Carbondale IL a few coaches were split off to make a St. Louis train.
 
I suppose the Palmetto fits that pattern. When it ran to Jacksonville, the ridership between Jacksonville and Savannah was pretty thin, due to the early/late hour....
Like the CNO was very lightly loaded south of Jackson MS. This sort of thing is typical of many trains. Prime example, most commuter trains when you divide passenger miles by train miles you will probably fine a load factor of around 50%, This, even though the train may arrive/leave the big city end of its run with people standing, because most people are not riding the full distance. Also, for south of NYC on the north east corridor the train may show sold out leaving Newark, but south of Philadelphia, no problem. Had that one play out quite a few years ago: Leaving Newark on a Friday for DC, nothing available. Took the NJT-SEPTA from Newark to Philly, then no problem getting on an Amtrak train. In fact, the train appeared to be no more than about 2/3 full. Yes, much slower to Philly, but also cheaper, but it still got me to DC faster than I could have made it if I waited for an Amtrak train I could board at Newark.
 
One of 4 PRR streamlined K4 engines pulling "name trains" (aside from the Broadway Limited). The Altoona shops designed and built these. I think it looks better than the Loewy designed streamlined Broadway Limited engine.
K4s without the streamlined cladding were the everyday workhorse on the PRR service to the Jersey Shore, now known as the NJT North Jersey Coast Line to Long Branch and Bay Head.
 
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