Idea for alternate NEC routings

[CCC1007]

And here I was thinking this was going to be about an alternate routing inland to add robustness to the NEC in the event of, god forbid, such events are massive blackouts or storm surges somewhere along the route.

The Hoboken route proposals probably were a joke. That was too goofy. Harrisburg to Suburban station was almost as goofy.

Was trying to throw a bit of levity in there. I was thinking a while back that there should be an alternate rail route (non-freight obviously) to Boston in particular in the even of a hurricane or natural disaster in CT or NYC such as a storm surge or tunnel/bridge failure. Obviously everything went to New York back in the day and the Hudson Valley and environs are difficult to build rail in, but is there an alternate route, at least a potential one, should there be a long, I'll say shutdown, in the New York area?

Not really that I'm aware of, and that doesn't just go for Amtrak but also for road traffic to have a reasonable detour. The only way I can think of to logically detour is by ferry service or air service!

 

[jis]

Was trying to throw a bit of levity in there. I was thinking a while back that there should be an alternate rail route (non-freight obviously) to Boston in particular in the even of a hurricane or natural disaster in CT or NYC such as a storm surge or tunnel/bridge failure. Obviously everything went to New York back in the day and the Hudson Valley and environs are difficult to build rail in, but is there an alternate route, at least a potential one, should there be a long, I'll say shutdown, in the New York area?

Alternate route from where to where?

There certainly are alternate road and freight railroad routes from Boston to Washington DC. They are not the shortest or most convenient. But they are there and quite usable too. The rail freight route bypasses Connecticut, downstate New York and New Jersey entirely, and runs through upstate New York and Pennsylvania.

 

[Thirdrail7]

By the way, remind me...the upper tracks at 30th Street run through. Do the Main Line SEPTA trains use the upper level or the lower level (as a rule)?

In general, SEPTA uses the upper level and Amtrak uses the lower level.

And here I was thinking this was going to be about an alternate routing inland to add robustness to the NEC in the event of, god forbid, such events are massive blackouts or storm surges somewhere along the route.

The Hoboken route proposals probably were a joke. That was too goofy. Harrisburg to Suburban station was almost as goofy.

Was trying to throw a bit of levity in there. I was thinking a while back that there should be an alternate rail route (non-freight obviously) to Boston in particular in the even of a hurricane or natural disaster in CT or NYC such as a storm surge or tunnel/bridge failure. Obviously everything went to New York back in the day and the Hudson Valley and environs are difficult to build rail in, but is there an alternate route, at least a potential one, should there be a long, I'll say shutdown, in the New York area?

Not really that I'm aware of, and that doesn't just go for Amtrak but also for road traffic to have a reasonable detour. The only way I can think of to logically detour is by ferry service or air service!

It depends on where the train is coming from and where it is attempting to go, Theoretically, most trains from south of WAS could bypass it, use CSX and Conrail from WAS to New Jersey, go up the River Line from Oak Island in New Jersey to Selkirk, where they can make their way to BOSTON and double back to STAMFORD. That would bypass the NEC, but I'd hardly call that reasonable.

 

[west point]

There are possible solutions for some relief if one of the bores is down for a lengthy ( 1 - 3 + years ) closure. But none of them are very doable without a large increase of personnel by Amtrak. Coordination would be important.

1. Combine all single level trains to run as 16 - 17 car trains. That would require passengers to walk thru trains <> east side of trains. trains would hang into approaches of east river tunnels. Ideally two trains would leave Sunnyside or one would follow regional from Boston. The 2nd trains would combine at NYP with MU and brake check done by many car men.

2. Then as NJT & combined train arrives on an adjacent from Newark then southbound train leaves and NJT follows to Newark.

3. AT Newark Penn station southbound (west) trains would split so trains could continue to meet station platform restraints farther toward WASH.

4. Platforms at Newark would need rebuilding on west end that are at present not useable.

5. All this maneuvering at NYP and Newark would require many agents and car men on duty at those stations.. As well NYP terminations would have to have SSY do all servicing of rolling stock.

7. Since the combining of Acelas has never been tried that may be impossible but maybe breaking up some Acelas and adding cars to others might work but that would definitely reduce number of Acela trains operated. Maybe some could originate at Newark ?.

Would this ever be implemented if a tube shuts down ? Highly doubt it.

 

[Hal]

Would this ever be implemented if a tube shuts down ? Highly doubt it.

If the tubes shut down they would have passengers get off in Newark and take the Path to Manhattan.

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[Palmetto]

That's a plan, but I'd be interested to know what kind of equipment PATH has to handle a trainloads of passengers arriving every 2-3 minutes at Newark Penn. I personally think the system would be overwhelmed.

 

[Hal]

That's a plan, but I'd be interested to know what kind of equipment PATH has to handle a trainloads of passengers arriving every 2-3 minutes at Newark Penn. I personally think the system would be overwhelmed.

Trains don't arrive at Newark every 2 to 3 minutes.
No doubt though Amtrak and NJT would run an abbreviated schedule since their equipment would have to be turned there.

If one or both tubes go down service is going to suck big time. No doubt about that.

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[jis]

Amtrak typically does not do more than 4tph except in unusual hours into New York from the South. If trains are terminated that will be curtailed. Amtrak and NJT will have to decide whether it is worth running Amtrak LD trains to NYP or an additional NJT commuter run.

One tube out means basically restricted to 8tph in each direction between Secaucus and New York. Amtrak could run a significant proportion of its service given that it does not run that much anyway. NJT will be screwed. They will most likely run a weekend like schedule to New York and divert balance of M&E trains to Hoboken, and possibly some NJCL trains also to Hoboken. Some trains will be turned in Newark, and possibly a few in Secaucus.

Roughly speaking on an average NJT will be able to run some 4 to 6 trains into and out of New York in a given hour depending on what Amtrak has for that hour. That could be a mix of say 2 or 3 NEC trains, 1 MTD and one NJCL, somewhat like on weekends.

 

[MARC Rider]

And here I was thinking this was going to be about an alternate routing inland to add robustness to the NEC in the event of, god forbid, such events are massive blackouts or storm surges somewhere along the route.

The Hoboken route proposals probably were a joke. That was too goofy. Harrisburg to Suburban station was almost as goofy.

Was trying to throw a bit of levity in there. I was thinking a while back that there should be an alternate rail route (non-freight obviously) to Boston in particular in the even of a hurricane or natural disaster in CT or NYC such as a storm surge or tunnel/bridge failure. Obviously everything went to New York back in the day and the Hudson Valley and environs are difficult to build rail in, but is there an alternate route, at least a potential one, should there be a long, I'll say shutdown, in the New York area?

Not really that I'm aware of, and that doesn't just go for Amtrak but also for road traffic to have a reasonable detour. The only way I can think of to logically detour is by ferry service or air service!

There is a reasonable road detour from WAS to BOS: I-83 north from Baltimore to Harrisburg, I-81 to Scranton, I-84 through Hartford to the Mass Pike, and then the Mass Pike (I-90) into Boston. I do it quite often when going to northern New England in order to avoid the New York traffic and the rather hefty tolls on I-95.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

One wonders why only two tubes were built in the first place? I assume the assumption was that commuter traffic would be via ferry and that it wouldn't grow that much from New Jersey? (wasn't some of the intercity traffic moved by rail ferries and barges as well?)

 

[CCC1007]

One wonders why only two tubes were built in the first place? I assume the assumption was that commuter traffic would be via ferry and that it wouldn't grow that much from New Jersey? (wasn't some of the intercity traffic moved by rail ferries and barges as well?)

I don't think that the designers were planning for 500+ trains every day on the line, so they didn't design for it.

 

[jis]

Most of the commuter trains that now try to jam into Penn Station went to Jersey City/Exchange Place back then. If you remove most of the commuter traffic, even today there would be relatively little traffic running through those tunnels.

 

[Palmetto]

Hal said: Trains don't arrive at Newark every 2 to 3 minutes.

Okay. Perhaps a little overstated, but here's the arrival lineup during the 7:30-8:00 AM arrival period, and it was the weekday morning rush hour that I had in mind.

7:34

7:37

7:40

7:40

7:44

7:48

7:50

7:54

7:55

7:57

8:00

That would be an arrival on average of every three minutes, if my math is correct.

 

[jis]

Hal was talking about Amtrak trains. You are talking about NJT trains + Amtrak trains. Amtrak has to worry only about handling Amtrak trains, not NJT trains.

My surmise is that if only one tunnel is out it is NJT that will take most of he hit. Amtrak will still be able to run most of its train into NYP with some schedule adjustments.

In that situation NJT will turn many trains at Newark, and some possibly even at Secaucus with PATH cross honoring NJT tickets in place. They will be able to run about 4 or 5 tph into NYP. Those will all be NEC or NJCL trains. The M&E trains will all go to Hoboken in that situation. A few NEC/NJCL trains might also go to Hoboken but not all or even a majority, specially during rush hours, when Hoboken isn't exactly uncongested either. I am almost certain that nothing Amtrak will go to Hoboken. If necessary some will turn at Newark, or even at Philly.

Also NJT will have many canceled or combined trains using longer consists than usual.

 

[Palmetto]

Hal did not specify in his retort "Amtrak trains" as you aptly point out. Hence my rejoinder.

Even if NJT turns most of its arriving trains at Newark in the AM rush, the passengers have to continue to Manhattan [for the most part] and it's my contention that at that point, PATH will simply be overwhelmed. On a more general note, is there, in fact, some sort of plan out there if one of the tunnels does go out?

 

[jis]

The weekend timetables are designed around one tunnel out. There are some free slots on weekends and some will be freed by moving MTDs to Hoboken. They will have to move schedules around on weekdyas some because the 8 trains in each direction has to be fleeted together. Roughly speaking the tunnel is scheduled 20 mins inbound, 10 min transition, 20 minutes outbound and then ten minutes transition back, for each hour.

Anything that does not fit within those 8tph have to get canceled, turned around or done something else with.

They could relieve loads on PATH by turning some trains at Secaucus and adding shuttles between Secaucus and Hoboken.

They could institute working hours staggering in Manhattan thus reducing peak load demands during commission hours.

They could run additional buses with street dropoff and pickup in Manhattan,

There are a lot of things that can be done besides trying to stuff everyone into PATH at Newark.

Remember, NJT trains overall carry far fewer commuters into Manhattan than NJT and contract buses. It will be a pain, but not an insurmountable problem dealing with one tunnel out. Dealing with two tunnels out will be an utter disaster.

There are many things that can be done to manage the situation.

 

[Hal]

Hal did not specify in his retort "Amtrak trains" as you aptly point out. Hence my rejoinder.

Even if NJT turns most of its arriving trains at Newark in the AM rush, the passengers have to continue to Manhattan [for the most part] and it's my contention that at that point, PATH will simply be overwhelmed. On a more general note, is there, in fact, some sort of plan out there if one of the tunnels does go out?

I was thinking of Amtrak trains.
As far as plans when one or both tunnels goes out of service. Saying put them on the Path was not some insight or inspiration on my part. It has happened. The passengers were directed to the PATH as an option when both or one tunnel was down and PATH honored Amtrak tickets. Some trains were turned at Newark. Some passengers opted to return home. Other trains were terminated at Philadelphia and turned back there.

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[Thirdrail7]

Hal did not specify in his retort "Amtrak trains" as you aptly point out. Hence my rejoinder.

I would guess that is because this is the Amtrak forum, not the commuter forum and this discussion is about Amtrak reroutes....not NJT. That being said:

Even if NJT turns most of its arriving trains at Newark in the AM rush, the passengers have to continue to Manhattan [for the most part] and it's my contention that at that point, PATH will simply be overwhelmed.

NJT is indeed relevant to the discussion because of what you stated. If PATH-etic is inundated with displaced NJT passenger, there would be no real place to for the displaced Amtrak passengers to fit. We've seen this happen when something happens between NYP-NWK.

It is a cluster...that gets clustier!*

On a more general note, is there, in fact, some sort of plan out there if one of the tunnels does go out?

I wouldn't normally do this, but here

. (The link is clean.) h34r:





* I am aware that clustier is not really a word....but it is something that is used during disruptions. (e.g. the clusterf*ck just got clustier!!)

 

[Palmetto]

I think we get the idea on "clustier"! Too bad about "the plan", too. :giggle:

 

[Seaboard92]

In the event two tubes go down at the same time we are in major trouble.

Problem 1. No terminal for amtrak long distance from the south. Trains could easily be moved into Hoboken and passengers either put on Ferries or buses to move them on into the city. Similar to what went on in the streamliner era. I also would combine 20/98 and 19/97 from WAS-HOB to free up a time slot in each direction. 20 would run three hours earlier.

Problem 2. A lack of a complete line for NER/Acela service WAS-BOS. We could use special PATH trains that run direct NWK-33rd street as currently there is a change at Exchange Place. And make it a guaranteed connection. But likely the network would be overwhelmed that that wouldn't be the best option. So the WAS-NYP trains I would run into Hoboken and short turn them so that those passengers could use a ferry insofar that we take some pressure off Path. Passengers going to points north of New York would get put on Path at Newark. To where they could connect with another train at NYP.

Problem 3. Lack of a coach yard in New Jersey. Use NJTs Hoboken yard but try to short turn everything as to minimize the time a train sits.

Problem 4. Path or Ferries becoming overwhelmed. Select trains (LDs- NER northern service) that can be handled by LDs terminating in Hoboken while using buses and ferries for passengers. And the NER North service terminates in Newark and passengers switch to Path to Penn station to continue their journey. Acela passengers also get the path at NWK. As far as NER south (normally terminate at NYP) cancel half the trains north of Philly and run them to Hoboken. While short turning the consist in Hoboken so it can take another train old back to south.

Problem 5. All of the NJT trains.

Problem 6. Stuck equipment in NYP. The NER/Acella fleet is completely split up. And one LD or two might be stuck on the wrong side of the Hudson.

 

[Eric S]

I can't imagine Amtrak running much of anything in and out of Hoboken, as that would likely be overwhelmed by NJT (not to mention lack of any Amtrak facilities there). I'd assume long distance trains would be turned at either WAS or PHL, with Amtrak turning as much Acela/NER traffic as possible at NWK.

One tube down - moderate difficulties for Amtrak and massive problems for NJT

Two tubes down - maybe wanna try American Airlines, BoltBus, Delta Air Lines, Megabus, etc. instead...

 

[jis]

Unlikely that anyone will run any Amtrak train to Hoboken specially during rush hours Hoboken will be more than overwhelmed with NJT trains.

Amtrak trains will mostly terminate in Philly with maybe an hourly turn or two, running to Newark. Heck we have already experienced this, and Amtrak service between Philly and New York definitely was way lower priority than managing the local commuter crowd. Almost everyone from the area understands that and almost no one from outside the area understands that apparently.

There really are many more viable, albeit inconvenient alternatives for NEC spine traffic than for local suburban traffic to New York from the South.

One of the things that happened is severral airlines substituted larger aircraft on existing schedule. Bus lines ran more buses. And of course many trips were curtailed for the duration.

Things may be different for a long term outage, but essentially the priorities will be about the same.

 

[Hal]

I can't imagine Amtrak running much of anything in and out of Hoboken, as that would likely be overwhelmed by NJT (not to mention lack of any Amtrak facilities there). I'd assume long distance trains would be turned at either WAS or PHL, with Amtrak turning as much Acela/NER traffic as possible at NWK.

One tube down - moderate difficulties for Amtrak and massive problems for NJT

Two tubes down - maybe wanna try American Airlines, BoltBus, Delta Air Lines, Megabus, etc. instead...

The long distance trains will turn at Washington. Maybe Philadelphia but I tend to doubt it. They would have to establish a commissary. Acela train sets can run to Newark and be turned there changing ends. Keystone trains can be run to Newark and be turned there changing ends. If needed some regionals can be turned at Newark running the engine around. Certainly whatever trains Amtrak runs will be a limited frequency.
They won't be sending any Amtrak trains to Hoboken.

 

[jis]

I completely agree. We took a somewhat deeper look at the possibilities in the days after Sandy, and this is exactly the conclusion that we arrived at.

 

[west point]

Don't forget if one tube is down for years the other tube will have to be shut every 2 - 4 weekends for major work.