Idea for the Heritage Diners

[Amtrak839]

With the heritage diners set to be replaced within a few years, is there any possibility of a small fleet being kept around (say the 4 or 5 in the best condition)? Suppose Amtrak rebuilt the interiors, making them similar to those of the Pacific Parlour Cars. The kitchen could be removed and the space turned into a lounge seating area, with a bar installed in the center, or in the corner where the kitchen once was. Some of the tables could be left, to allow for space for dining. The cars could provide similar service to that of the PPC, functioning as a separate lounge for sleeping car pax, and serving some alternative dining options. I think such a car would be best used on the Silver Meteor. The Silver Meteor and Lake Shore Limited each carry 3 sleepers, but such a car would be better used on the Meteor, because its run is significantly longer than the Lake Shore's. I think these cars would be much nicer lounge cars than the Amfleet IIs, considering that the windows are slightly larger, and that they have more headroom. This would also keep sleeping car pax out of the Amfleet II lounge, freeing up more space for coach passengers wishing to get out of their coach seats.

Keeping the condition of these cars in mind, would this be realistic at all? Amtrak has kept the PPCs running nicely, despite that they are almost as old as the heritage diners. Would the added amenities for sleeping car pax result in enough revenue/good publicity to make it worth the cost? Or should Amtrak simply rid itself of these cars as quickly as possible, once the Viewliner Diners arrive?

 

[Donctor]

With the heritage diners set to be replaced within a few years, is there any possibility of a small fleet being kept around (say the 4 or 5 in the best condition)? Suppose Amtrak rebuilt the interiors, making them similar to those of the Pacific Parlour Cars. The kitchen could be removed and the space turned into a lounge seating area, with a bar installed in the center, or in the corner where the kitchen once was. Some of the tables could be left, to allow for space for dining. The cars could provide similar service to that of the PPC, functioning as a separate lounge for sleeping car pax, and serving some alternative dining options. I think such a car would be best used on the Silver Meteor. The Silver Meteor and Lake Shore Limited each carry 3 sleepers, but such a car would be better used on the Meteor, because its run is significantly longer than the Lake Shore's. I think these cars would be much nicer lounge cars than the Amfleet IIs, considering that the windows are slightly larger, and that they have more headroom. This would also keep sleeping car pax out of the Amfleet II lounge, freeing up more space for coach passengers wishing to get out of their coach seats.
Keeping the condition of these cars in mind, would this be realistic at all? Amtrak has kept the PPCs running nicely, despite that they are almost as old as the heritage diners. Would the added amenities for sleeping car pax result in enough revenue/good publicity to make it worth the cost? Or should Amtrak simply rid itself of these cars as quickly as possible, once the Viewliner Diners arrive?

I would think they would serve better as supplements to the Amfleet II lounges. That way long-distance trains like the Maple Leaf could have long-distance lounges. Or, theoretically, Amtrak could convert them to diner/lounges for use on the Cardinal or the Night Owl/Twilight, assuming that that run is revived.

 

[had8ley]

I'd love to see one on the Crescent. It wouldn't bother me if they cut it off in Atlanta with the empty coaches they usually drag around all the way to NOL.

 

[haolerider]

I'd love to see one on the Crescent. It wouldn't bother me if they cut it off in Atlanta with the empty coaches they usually drag around all the way to NOL.

An analysis was completed recently to determine the cost of cutting cars in ATL, as they used to do it. The cost was prohibitive - with the necessity of hiring a mechanical crew, determining how to cut the equipment off in a timely manner, getting access to a locomotive to do the work, where to store the equipment and who/how to service it - watering, dumping the toilets, etc. The addition of a third sleeper and additional coach cars were considered in the analysis. It costs less to haul an empty coach to and from NOL and get it cleaned and serviced in NOL than one would save by cutting it in ATL.

 

[AlanB]

It would be nice if they would consider doing that, but I think it highly unlikely that they will. Most likely they'll just junk/sell those cars like they did with many of the other Heritage Diners already.

And all of that assumes that Amtrak actually does get the funding to place the order. So far we're only at the request for proposal stage of things. No prices for new cars have been determined, no manufacturer selected, and no order has been placed.

 

[jis]

And all of that assumes that Amtrak actually does get the funding to place the order. So far we're only at the request for proposal stage of things. No prices for new cars have been determined, no manufacturer selected, and no order has been placed.

Well, they need to get budget authority before they can place an order, and that has to happen as part of the appropriations that are in the works at present. They had already said that order will be placed (assuming the congress-critters do not whack them) sometime early next year, no?

 

[AlanB]

And all of that assumes that Amtrak actually does get the funding to place the order. So far we're only at the request for proposal stage of things. No prices for new cars have been determined, no manufacturer selected, and no order has been placed.

Well, they need to get budget authority before they can place an order, and that has to happen as part of the appropriations that are in the works at present. They had already said that order will be placed (assuming the congress-critters do not whack them) sometime early next year, no?

That is all correct.

 

[VT Hokie]

Wouldn't surprise me if VIA Rail buys a few of 'em.

 

[MattW]

From the Turboliner topic: museum! LOL, ok, maybe one or two at most, but I'd expect them to be in the scrap heap, or at least listed for sale at scrap value for a limited amount of time.

 

[Amtrak839]

Out of curiosity, anyone have a rough idea of what the scrap value for a stainless steel Budd car, such as a heritage diner would be?

 

[cpamtfan]

With the heritage diners set to be replaced within a few years, is there any possibility of a small fleet being kept around (say the 4 or 5 in the best condition)? Suppose Amtrak rebuilt the interiors, making them similar to those of the Pacific Parlour Cars. The kitchen could be removed and the space turned into a lounge seating area, with a bar installed in the center, or in the corner where the kitchen once was. Some of the tables could be left, to allow for space for dining. The cars could provide similar service to that of the PPC, functioning as a separate lounge for sleeping car pax, and serving some alternative dining options. I think such a car would be best used on the Silver Meteor. The Silver Meteor and Lake Shore Limited each carry 3 sleepers, but such a car would be better used on the Meteor, because its run is significantly longer than the Lake Shore's. I think these cars would be much nicer lounge cars than the Amfleet IIs, considering that the windows are slightly larger, and that they have more headroom. This would also keep sleeping car pax out of the Amfleet II lounge, freeing up more space for coach passengers wishing to get out of their coach seats.
Keeping the condition of these cars in mind, would this be realistic at all? Amtrak has kept the PPCs running nicely, despite that they are almost as old as the heritage diners. Would the added amenities for sleeping car pax result in enough revenue/good publicity to make it worth the cost? Or should Amtrak simply rid itself of these cars as quickly as possible, once the Viewliner Diners arrive?

I had the same thought, Peter :lol: . Its like you read my mind.

 

[Amtrak839]

I had the same thought, Peter :lol: . Its like you read my mind.

Some sort of psychic connection between the Peters of the forum??? :huh: We're also probably the youngest people who regularly post on here.

 

[TrackWalker]

Out of curiosity, anyone have a rough idea of what the scrap value for a stainless steel Budd car, such as a heritage diner would be?

I don't know the scrap value but I remember reading an article in the Seattle paper back in the '70's about Amtrak selling their surplus cars for $10,000 each at the time. If I remember correctly (and I do) the picture in the article was of an NP dining car.

I could have owned an entire North Coast Limited for about $150,000.

 

[wrjensen]

I think a sleeper lounge would but a good idea but if it required no staff would be more viable. It could be a parlor car with large plush seats. One Issue would be how do you keep the coach passengers out of it.

Other option would be to convert them to Slumbercoaches and get some revenue out of them.

 

[wrjensen]

Scarp would be about $100 to $200 per ton, depend on how clean they are. There most likely no money an the parts, so little demand. so with a 50 ton car you are talking about $10,000 dollars.

 

[AlanB]

I think a sleeper lounge would but a good idea but if it required no staff would be more viable. It could be a parlor car with large plush seats. One Issue would be how do you keep the coach passengers out of it.

Put it between the dining car and the sleepers like they do with the PPC's on the Coast Starligh. That pretty much shuts out coach traffic.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

It would be nice if they would consider doing that, but I think it highly unlikely that they will. Most likely they'll just junk/sell those cars like they did with many of the other Heritage Diners already.
And all of that assumes that Amtrak actually does get the funding to place the order. So far we're only at the request for proposal stage of things. No prices for new cars have been determined, no manufacturer selected, and no order has been placed.

I doubt they'd junk'em, especially the ones that have had truck replacements in relatively recent years. I'll be on line to buy one. After all, my new home needs a kitchen.

 

[Chris J.]

Scarp would be about $100 to $200 per ton, depend on how clean they are. There most likely no money an the parts, so little demand. so with a 50 ton car you are talking about $10,000 dollars.

Stick 'em on eBay :lol:

 

[Shotgun7]

Or you could always turn 'em into these: http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=209964&nseq=10

 

[pebbleworm]

That is a nice looking car! Some kind of first class lounge would be appreciated, I'm sure, and an amenity like that could attract a few more customers. And amenities do help- a long slow grind on the Cardinal with a rack of vending machines only in the 1980's soured me on Amtrak for a while.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

That is a nice looking car! Some kind of first class lounge would be appreciated, I'm sure, and an amenity like that could attract a few more customers. And amenities do help- a long slow grind on the Cardinal with a rack of vending machines only in the 1980's soured me on Amtrak for a while.

Interesting coincidence that somebody several posts above mentioned the Silver Meteor. This car shown here was itself a five double bedroom bar lounge built for the Silver Meteor,as it says. It had a sun lounge Florida motiff.

A number of lounge cars scattered about the country before Amtrak had regional themes of some sort. Just like regional food in the diners.

Although the Silver Meteor was originally built in 1939, pro-passenger Seaboard saw to it that it got installments of newer equipment off and on through the years, this being a 1956 car.

For that matter some attractive new coaches were built at the same time. They had small smoking lounges in the middle of the car to break up the tunnel effect of standard coaches.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

That is a nice looking car! Some kind of first class lounge would be appreciated, I'm sure, and an amenity like that could attract a few more customers. And amenities do help- a long slow grind on the Cardinal with a rack of vending machines only in the 1980's soured me on Amtrak for a while.

The design of the Viewliner shell would allow for some very nice single leverl Sightseer Lounges. Once you get a taste of a "big window" Lounge, it's hard to go back to an Amfleet or even CCC.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

That is a nice looking car! Some kind of first class lounge would be appreciated, I'm sure, and an amenity like that could attract a few more customers. And amenities do help- a long slow grind on the Cardinal with a rack of vending machines only in the 1980's soured me on Amtrak for a while.

The design of the Viewliner shell would allow for some very nice single leverl Sightseer Lounges. Once you get a taste of a "big window" Lounge, it's hard to go back to an Amfleet or even CCC.

Actually, the Viewliner shell would not lend itself to a Sightseer-type lounge at all. The A/C and other components are located and spread throughout the roof of the car. The shell is heavily braced in the sections where the "skylights" would go. It could, however, replace the two tiers of windows with a single window extending about another 8 inches down from the bottom window and about 2 inches up from the top of the top window.

However, on a long-distance railcar routinely operated at speeds of 110 mph, the windows would have to be impressively heavy and thick in order to move at that speed without the rippling effect you find in cars like the Comet Vs- imagine that effect magnified by windows that are about twice the size. In addition, the large holes would require additional bracing due to the slight loss of structural rigidity. It wouldn't be the issue you'd have with a monocoque shell like an Amfleet, but it would still be an issue.

However, a Viewliner lounge, even with less impressive windows than I am describing, would be a nice improvement over the Amfleet II lounge car. Another nice improvement would be Viewliner coach cars, which from what I heard are 5th on the priority list. Amtrak hasn't plaid its desires that far to congress- Just the top three- 1) new electrics, 2) the 125 Viewliner 50 baggage/25 bag-dorm/25 sleeper/25 diner order, 3) 125 bi-level corridor cars for the midwest.

4th, which they have listed as an option on the viewliner order, is another 75 Viewliners distributed among the types already listed- additional sleepers, diners, bag-dorms, and baggages. 5th, which they haven't even take to option status, is an additional 200 Viewliners- 165 coaches, 25 lounge cars, 10 diner/lounge cars.

This option is primarily corridor focused, believe it or not. The intention would be to remove the Amfleet IIs from long distance service. They'd be placed on the Vermonter, Carolinian, a Palmetto that would operate alongside a Silver Palm, a NY-Atlanta day train, a resurrected Twilight Shoreliner, and expand the consist of the existing Amfleet II trains- the Pennsylvanian, Adirondack, and Maple Leaf. Those trains will get Amfleet II diner-lite cars, but whether they'd be used with that purpose in mind is not clear.

The new trains, by the way, my source admits, are hopes based on additional operating funds. If they don't materialize, some of the Amfleet IIs will probably be used as business-class- or perhaps even first-class - cars on corridor trains.

In anycase, the purpose behind this exercise is to free up 125 Amfleet I cars from service doing other things, thereby increasing the size of the NEC fleet by 125 cars, and allowing the scrapping or sale of the Horizons, and combined with the delivery of the bi-level midwest cars, should expand the total NEC fleet by about 140 cars.

This will allow the worst of the current Amfleet cars to be scrapped. The rest will be slowly rebuilt. Accordingly, in estimation, the overall total NEC capacity will be increased by about 75 cars- another 65 being scrapped, sold, or cannibalized for parts. If the operating funds from congress, or the states, occur, some of these will be used for additional round trips. The rest will expand current consists.

I, for one, am pleased that Amtrak does not seem to place a priority on replacing the Amfleet cars. According to my source, current plans are that they will continue to form the back-bone of NEC operations for a few more decades.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

My idea for the Viewliner Sightseer didn't involve modifying the windows, but rather keeping the two tiers to allow more openess and ambient lighting in the lounge area. That way the structure of the car remains intact and no shell modifications need to be done. Now we just need the interior design folks to come up with an inviting yet durable and practical interior layout.

 

[TVRM610]

as for the original idea of using the diners for PPC cars amtrak wouldn't hardly need to do anything to the refurbished diners, I always forget the name but they have the green padded seats and the star light ceiling..

Anyways... they look quite nice, they already have a bar at the kithchen, and the tables are much more lounge like then the typical booths. Honestly they could be used as is for wine tastings, continental breakfasts, dinner options, whatever they would like.

I'm not sure how many of these there are... but I'm sure the Silver trains could benefit from them.