it seems certain 67/68 will be terminated south of Washington

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

This piece of data comes to me from an Amtrak Employee in the last few minutes, so I will not divulge the source, but perhaps

Gene can either corroborate it or refute it. For the moment, it

seems certain that 67/68 will be terminated south of Washington,

DC in the October time change.

Tom Schmidt is the VP-Ops. at Amtrak and has been there a few

months now. Although this Amtrak employee is not too happy with

him - neither would I be - I know Tom well enough that I suspect

he is merely carrying out the instructions he is given.

So, it may be a rumour, but until corroborated, here is the

poop.

67/68 to terminate south of DC in October

Capitol Ltd. to disappear around mid-winter with the Cardinal

possibly then being a daily train. I would suspect the

equipment issues are as much at fault as anything else,

especially SuperLiner equipment.

Here is the data I got, unedited except to remove the name of

the sender.

----------------------------------------------------------

Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 11:26 AM

Subject: The News Gets Worse

> I'm afraid your boy Schmidt may be worse than Mineta ever

> dreamed of being. With the October time table change, trains

> 67/67 will no longer venture beyond Washington, which is going

> to outrage the people in Virginia who are paying for all of

> these track improvements, as well as the people in Richmond,

> who have a contract to operate four daily trains into and out

> of Main Street Station. ("I guess they'll have to sue us" is

> Amtrak's response.)

>

> He would have killed the Capitol Limited in October, except

> that the "memo" he sent operations, telling them instead to

> make the Cardinal DAILY, left people scrambling to figure out

> how to crew the two trains, which if Schmidt got his way, were

> to meet at Orange, on the old C&O [10-25 MPH] Washington

> Subdivision. When he was told that this was impossible on such

> short notice, he relented, saying that they'd kill 29/30 in

> December. Merry Christmas.

>

> Of course the Bubbas on the Buckingham Branch/North Mountain

> Sub are ready to take over dispatching chores, and as a part

> of their initial application intend to dismantle the signal

> system and go dark. Imagine daily meets on the dark, single

> track, North Mountain Sub, where slides and derailments are as

> common as deer crossing the tracks.

>

> Schmidt embarrassed himself on a conference call, making it

> clear that while he may know a great deal about engineering,

> he knows NOTHING about operating a railroad. He demanded that

> our roadforemen start riding the Acela trains to "make sure

> they're running right at the top speed to make up time they're

> losing". Someone pointed out to him that the difference

> between 125 and 135 MPH is only a couple of seconds, and that

> once an Acela was more than four minutes behind, it was

> physically impossible to get it back on schedule. "Oh".

>

> Going to Chicago from the south. IF your train makes Philly in

> time, you're going to get to ride the extension of single

> level, coach/snack car trains 42/43, which will replace 29/30

> from Pittsburgh west to the windy city. (And you thought 89/90

> to Miami via Tampa was a torture chamber.)

>

> Yes, I've got to admit that I'm surprised. I didn't think

> there was anyone worse for Amtrak than the Bushites, then

> along came Schmidt.

>

>>

J. H. Sullivan

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

Colleagues,
Received additional data a few minutes ago including a number

correction on the train to be discontinued south of DC. Again,

the source is one that is usually correct, but lets take it as a

rumour until corroborated one way or the other.

----------------------------------------------------------

It's the old Night Owl (67/66) that's being shortened, not the

old Colonial (95/94). BOTH trains run full on the weekends and

in the summer, but 67/66 is the weak sister of the pair. Trouble

is, 66 especially does well with business passengers, and at

Main St. Station too. It is the last scheduled departure of the

day northbound and is ALWAYS heavy. 67 tends to be a bit

lighter, especially midweek and off peak. It isn't picking up

the business passengers for Richmond that they'd hoped for since

it leaves Washington at 7:30 and doesn't get into Richmond until

9:45, 10:10 at Main St. Station (IF it's on time, and given

CSX's record for delaying that train, no businessman in his

right mind is going to make an appointment predicated on using

67. But on 66, with a 5:30 Main St. departure, or 6:00 at

Greendale, you can finish up business, grab a bite to eat, and

get home to DC by 8 PM.

Still, you HAVE to run the train to make it convenient and

reliable. This MAY be a ploy to get Virginia Governor Tim Kaine

to put some money where his mouth is (on transportation, which

was the pivotal issue in his election.) Pulling the rug out from

under the Jamestown 400th anniversary and Main Street Station is

REALLY going to make some enemies though. Eric Cantor, who has

no use for Amtrak (he's Bush's lap dog) will have a field day

with it, John Warner and George Allen (who support Amtrak) are

going to be humiliated, and Mayor (and former Governor) Doug

Wilder will raise hell--an get a huge audience.

In other words, this may be a good move to save money, but it's

going to be a BAD PR move, alienating a state that has finally

warmed up and started spending money. I think it will come back

to haunt them, but what do I know?

----------------------------------------------------------

J. H. Sullivan

 

[yarrow]

a couple questions. you mention the october time change. is this when the new system timetable comes out? if so, can amtrak just do away with routes or parts of routes without 180 day notice? also thanks for presenting this and your other info. and thanks for presenting this as speculation which can be discussed and looked into.

 

[AlanB]

Yes, October is generally when the new timetables come out, even though starting this year we no longer set the clocks back until late November I believe.

As for cutting routes, the 180 day notice requirement would not exist for 66/67, since there will still be other trains running that route. However, the Capitol Limited idea if true, should indeed require 180 day notices. That would tend to discount this story, unless the original source got the dates wrong, since the notices would have to have already been sent in order to have such a change by the end of the year. Unless of course Amtrak has somehow found a loophole in the law.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Well, we don't have a Sunset Limited running East of NOL, and we don't have any "train-offs" for that either. Maybe this time it will be Hurricane Bush. :angry:

 

[The Metropolitan]

*sigh* (here we go again)

Well, if so, then it seems your earliest date possible for the Capitol truncation would be 2/20, and that's IF a 180 day goes out Monday, as Connellsville, Cumberland, Martinsburg, Harpers Ferry, and Rockville would all qualify.

At least I do have CL tix for this October to enjoy the Fall show.

 

[tp49]

I was looking at getting tickets between NYP and Newport News to take a side trip around Christmas time and at least for now Amtrak's computer will still sell you the ticket.

 

[MadManMoon]

I was looking at getting tickets between NYP and Newport News to take a side trip around Christmas time and at least for now Amtrak's computer will still sell you the ticket.

My wife and I booked a trip from WAS to WFH on 29 & 7, returning on 8 & 30, in mid-June 2007. Just received the tickets in the mail today. Let's hope this is another rumor that simply disappears.

Drew

 

[The Metropolitan]

Here's what doesn't make sense about this to me...

If I read this right, the following would happen.

A round trip to Newport News would be trimmed to terminate at Washington DC.

The Capitol Limited 29/30 would be cut, with 42/43 extended to Chicago from Pittsburgh in its place.

The Cardinal 50/51 might go daily from tri-weekly.

Here's the math...

Cutting the rounder to Newport News would save about 4.5 hours each way, or 9 hours total daily.

Cutting the Capitol's segment from PGH to DC would save about 8 hours each way, or 16 hours total daily.

Running the Cardinal daily would add a pair of 27 hour trips on four days of each week.

The savings from the two cuts is 175 hours of service in a week.

The additional cost of the daily Cardinal is 216 hours of service in a week.

So, as stated, this "savings" would add 41 hours of service to the schedule each week.

Of course the Cardinal is a less labor intensive train than the CL, and it saves Superliner equipment, but I'd gather that they'd need to find A-IIs for the new 42/43, which could also be a problem.

 

[battalion51]

Well Am II's can be had. The Palmetto continues to run with Am II coaches while the Carolinian runs with Am I's. So they can easily have the Palmetto follow the Carolinian's suit.

As far as the other cuts are concerned you'll be saving a lot of T&E crews by making the change. It takes two Engineers to get to NPN from WAS (one WAS-RVR one RVR-NPN) plus Conductors (I don't know their turn). The Capitol requires two Engineers PGH-WAS (PGH-CUM and CUM-WAS), and the current Engineers that take it CHI-TOL-PGH would just be reassigned to the Pennsylvanian. Now obviously the Cardinal will require a few more jobs, but as if my thinking is right it might only take one more set of Engineers for each segment IND-CHW-CVS-WAS.

 

[The Metropolitan]

Actually, now that you mention it, I forgot to discount the portion of the Cardinal that does run as the Hoosier State on the off days, thus absorbing 5 hours of service each way x 3 days for 30 hours/week. Brings the "savings" down to an added 11 hours of service a week.

Would be interesting to see just how this has been calculated internally if indeed such a plan exists.

 

[AmtrakFan]

Would Amtrak keep the Hoosier State in the event this did happen?

 

[x-press]

I, for one, am NOT going to lose sleep over rumors again (though, I do appreciate that it is being presented as such this time).

That said, it's still fun to talk about them!

Honestly, just from a planning perspective, a New York-Philly-Harrisburg-Altoona-Johnstown-Pitt train to Chicago does make more sense than the Cap's route (DC-"middle of nowhere"-Pittsburgh). Probably would even run a tad better, with all-NS routing instead of half-CSX. The problem, as usual, comes down to Equipment-Equipment-Equipment. The Capitol runs with a high-capacity, space-efficient superliner consist. Ain't happenin' on the old Three Rivers route, which I suspect was one reason for it not surviving originally.

To me, the "fatal flaw" in this plan is, just like the last rumor, that it doesn't make sense.

The original post mentions "equipment problems." What equipment problems? The superliner fleet, while I'm sure has its share of wear/tear, has not had significant equipment problems or shortages since the wreck-repair (finally) got underway . . . Even if it had, what would making the Cardinal daily accomplish? It uses a viewliner sleeper, which DOES have equipment shortages. What would the correlation be between Capitol discontinuance and Cardinal frequency increase? The Cardinal takes far too long DC-CHI to attract any great share of the Capitol's ridership, and the proposed coach-only Pennsylvanian wouldn't take any of the Capitol's sleeper traffic . . . ? Add to that the illegal omission of 180-day notices (unless Amtrak is planning to dynamite some key bridges and claim "act of God") . . .

The whole rumor sounds a bit like this: Discontinue Capitol Limited due to non-existant problems and/or shortages with the Superliner fleet. To take up slack, increase service on a (for all intents and purposes) entirely unrelated train serving largely different areas, which happens to have real equipment shortage problems (Cardinal). Further, extend a successful regional train to long distance, without adding any amenities, thus likely ruining the successful regional operation without adding any meaningful long distance capacity.

If this rumor's all we got, I suspect the Capitol will be around as long as any other LD train . . . whether that's 180 days or 180 years is anybody's guess.

JPS

 

[Chatter163]

Yes, October is generally when the new timetables come out, even though starting this year we no longer set the clocks back until late November I believe.

Actually, that starts next year:
"On August 8, 2005, President George W. Bush signed the Energy Policy Act of 2005. This Act changed the time change dates for Daylight Saving Time in the U.S. Beginning in 2007, DST will begin on the second Sunday of March and end the first Sunday of November. The Secretary of Energy will report the impact of this change to Congress. Congress retains the right to revert the Daylight Saving Time back to the 2005 time schedule once the Department of Energy study is complete." http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/b.html

 

[JAChooChoo]

Yes, October is generally when the new timetables come out, even though starting this year we no longer set the clocks back until late November I believe.

Actually, that starts next year:
"On August 8, 2005, President George W. Bush signed the Energy Policy Act of 2005. This Act changed the time change dates for Daylight Saving Time in the U.S. Beginning in 2007, DST will begin on the second Sunday of March and end the first Sunday of November. The Secretary of Energy will report the impact of this change to Congress. Congress retains the right to revert the Daylight Saving Time back to the 2005 time schedule once the Department of Energy study is complete." http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/b.html

Legally it is not - nor has it ever been - Daylight Saving Time ! Its Standard time - here is the actual wording of the Uniform Time Act of 1966: (emphasis added)

(a) Duration of period; State exemption

During the period commencing at 2 o’clock antemeridian on the first Sunday of April of each year and ending at 2 o’clock antemeridian on the last Sunday of October of each year, the standard time of each zone established by sections 261 to 264 of this title, as modified by section 265 of this title, shall be advanced one hour and such time as so advanced shall for the purposes of such sections 261 to 264, as so modified, be the standard time of such zone during such period; however, (1) any State that lies entirely within one time zone may by law exempt itself from the provisions of this subsection providing for the advancement of time, but only if that law provides that the entire State (including all political subdivisions thereof) shall observe the standard time otherwise applicable during that period, and (2) any State with parts thereof in more than one time zone may by law exempt either the entire State as provided in (1) or may exempt the entire area of the State lying within any time zone.

Note that the words " Daylight Saving Time" are never used or defined in the original act.

While the dates have been amended by the Energy Policy Act of 2005 the advanced "standard time" designation has not.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

I personally don't see the tidbit about the "Capital Limited" holding any water. At least not for now. Why else would have Amtrak officials and CSX officials gotten together to iron out a solution to the OTP here in the East? As I understand it via my sources, some commitments have been made with both sides making some headway. We'll see how that all turns out. But I just can't simply see the idea of cutting the "Capital Limited" right now. I say this with regard to all the engine troubles on the "Silver Service" this last couple of months, all of a sudden after this meeting, I have seen just about every Amtrak Florida train lately with at least two locos in the consist! And I have noticed train #98 has been doing considerably better lately. One would think some kind of deal has had to have been made! Maybe it's because the summer travel is winding down, but let's give 'em the benefit.

As far as the situation regarding the other trains (#66 & #67), I can see that being explored, as upper management has already made it clear there will be "route" evaluations with changes made if necessary especially in areas of multiple "primarily LD" service. Of course, unless a route is completely discontinued (even just a portion completely abandoned) or a certain station no longer is served due to a train cut, 180 notices would not be required. Anyway, we still have a little over another month left in this fiscal year so we'll see what is to come. All is quiet right now here on my end. There is no arguing with that. OBS...

 

[frj1983]

One other thought occurs to me about the rumored cancellation of the Capital Limited:

It's political...Amtral would cancel a train that comes directly from the west to Washington DC??

I could see that rasing a stink with some congressional types.

 

[The Metropolitan]

Amtrak to cut Richmond-Tidewater?

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satel...d=1149190175297

still trying to figure out what this troubling statement means...

In all, Amtrak would cut 14 trains from the current 29 serving the corridor.

*EDIT*

Methinks I know where the "29" number came from - its the total number of Amtrak trains that travel South of Washington - the Corridor PDF Timetable shows 21 full trips, but when you add the Silver Service, as well as the Crescent and Cardinal - you arrive at 29.

Since this would occur in well less than 180 days, one would assume that all 14 trains are regionals that would be cut back to DC (unless the Palmetto is endangered) - However, looking further, the 14 trains may be either more or less dire, as some of the 29 trains run only one day out of the week.

Scare tactic for Virginia pols, or legitimate cut in the cards - we shall see.

 

[1702]

Amtrak to cut Richmond-Tidewater?
http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satel...d=1149190175297

still trying to figure out what this troubling statement means...

In all, Amtrak would cut 14 trains from the current 29 serving the corridor.

One each way daily= 2, 2 x 7 = 14? (Can't believe I had to come back & edit this.....another system failure!).

 

[AmtrakFan]

I am very distrubed by this prorposal to cut Tidewater Service.

 

[PRR 60]

The "corridor" is Richmond to Newport News (Tidewater):

Southbound

#67: daily - 7 per week

#95: Mon-Fri - 5 per week

#99: Sat-Sun - 2 per week

#83: Fri - 1 per week

15 southbound trips per week

Northbound

#66: daily - 7 per week

#194: Sat-Sun - 2 per week

#94: Mon-Fri - 5 per week

14 northbound trips per week

29 total trips per week

 

[PRR 60]

And just to present the other side of the story...

The total ridership of Amtrak service between Richmond and Newport News is 97,000 per year. Sounds like a lot? With 29 trains per week, that is an average of about 86 passengers per train riding on the portion of the route east of Richmond. The state of Virginia gets those 29 weekly trains carrying 86 passengers each for free. They are 100% Amtrak funded. Compare that to the Capitols in California. Ridership there is over 1.2 million per year or an average of about 140 riders per train. The state of California pays all the costs of that service. Amtrak contributes nothing: not even the equipment itself.

If the Williamsburg area would truly be "devastated" by the loss of half of this service, then perhaps the state of Virginia should do what California and Pennsylvania do for similar in-state services: help pay for it.

 

[Guest]

well if they get rid of 29/30 in which I work as onboard attendant then washington crew base is going to have find jobs for 60 people (in which they will make most them lsa's any way).

Colleagues,
Received additional data a few minutes ago including a number

correction on the train to be discontinued south of DC. Again,

the source is one that is usually correct, but lets take it as a

rumour until corroborated one way or the other.

----------------------------------------------------------

It's the old Night Owl (67/66) that's being shortened, not the

old Colonial (95/94). BOTH trains run full on the weekends and

in the summer, but 67/66 is the weak sister of the pair. Trouble

is, 66 especially does well with business passengers, and at

Main St. Station too. It is the last scheduled departure of the

day northbound and is ALWAYS heavy. 67 tends to be a bit

lighter, especially midweek and off peak. It isn't picking up

the business passengers for Richmond that they'd hoped for since

it leaves Washington at 7:30 and doesn't get into Richmond until

9:45, 10:10 at Main St. Station (IF it's on time, and given

CSX's record for delaying that train, no businessman in his

right mind is going to make an appointment predicated on using

67. But on 66, with a 5:30 Main St. departure, or 6:00 at

Greendale, you can finish up business, grab a bite to eat, and

get home to DC by 8 PM.

Still, you HAVE to run the train to make it convenient and

reliable. This MAY be a ploy to get Virginia Governor Tim Kaine

to put some money where his mouth is (on transportation, which

was the pivotal issue in his election.) Pulling the rug out from

under the Jamestown 400th anniversary and Main Street Station is

REALLY going to make some enemies though. Eric Cantor, who has

no use for Amtrak (he's Bush's lap dog) will have a field day

with it, John Warner and George Allen (who support Amtrak) are

going to be humiliated, and Mayor (and former Governor) Doug

Wilder will raise hell--an get a huge audience.

In other words, this may be a good move to save money, but it's

going to be a BAD PR move, alienating a state that has finally

warmed up and started spending money. I think it will come back

to haunt them, but what do I know?

----------------------------------------------------------

J. H. Sullivan

 

[1702]

well if they get rid of 29/30 in which I work as onboard attendant then washington crew base is going to have find jobs for 60 people (in which they will make most them lsa's any way).

Why wouldn't they simply furlough the most junior people? That's the way it usually works.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

well if they get rid of 29/30 in which I work as onboard attendant then washington crew base is going to have find jobs for 60 people (in which they will make most them lsa's any way).

Don't worry about the loss of the "Capital" right now! If any plans arise to cut that service, first off there will be a notice of 180 days posted within that route according to the guidelines of the 180 day notice law already in place in the legislation which created us (the NRPC). You can expect (even before that action happening) a slew of political unrest to unfold! Remember this is the "Capital Limited" we are talking about (serving our nations capital)! The main reason I say this is because at this point in time I do not see Amtrak cutting any routes as of my knowledge of where there is only one train per day or alternating days of service! I believe Amtrak is mainly exploring options in areas of multiple train service both in corridor as well as LD. Only time is going to tell right now. We are fixin' to enter into the last month of the fiscal year.

As far as what you would do if "losing the Capital Limited" were to come to pass. What the previous poster "1702" (who I believe may be an AMTK employee) mentions is correct. Yours and your co-workers' jobs would be abolished and they would furlough all of the most junior employees after the extra board (if any) is satisfied. And it appears you probably are correct about the only jobs available would probably be LSA assuming the WAS crewbase is strictly the "Capital" regarding any long distance service is concerned. If all that came to pass, once again you would be furloughed, and then you could either take the furlough, train for LSA, or excercise your nationwide rights according to the contract and bump in where you have enough seniority to hold. Remember, you have NYC right up the RR (NEC) from you as well as the other crewbases in the nation. If they needed help at that time in the OBS dept, you can also go down to Lorton and work the "Auto Train." But according to the contract, you cannot take your OBS seniority there with you. You would have to start over with a new seniority date at LOR, and I believe they rotate around in their crafts if I am not mistaken. They wrote that into the contract to protect those employees who were already in the old "Auto Train Corp" from being bumped out of their jobs by Amtrak OBS employees after Amtrak took over that service.

Just remember this is all "hypothetical" with this situation as a whole right now! I don't believe that "Capital Limited" deal holds any water to it, so just plan on working "business as usual." Take care.... OBS...