July 1st Service Change Recap

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This is GOOD?

No "available data?"

You serious?

What about the steep deterioration in the City of New Orleans dining service?

Firing the chef was another boneheaded Amtrak "idea."
I'm not seeing the data here. No one outside of Amtrak likely will until the July monthly report is released in the middle of September.
You, sir, try riding on a train for nearly 2 days.

Am sure you'll be happy with JUNK FOOD for your meals.
Been there done that. I got what I paid for. Knew what I expected and that's what I got. IMO Amtrak's biggest failing here is failing to effectively communicate the service changes to passengers. But there is nothing inherently wrong with the trial itself.
 
The free breakfast I had at the Hampton Inn in New Orleans the day before my departure was vastly better than the meal on the CONO the next morning.
Ouch!

26 hours (the longest trip without the Meteor as an alternative...Lakeland, FL to New York, NY) is hardly "nearly two days."
So the core of your retort revolves around semantics?

You have to understand that this experiment is designed to fail.
That's the theory anyway.
 
It's causing more harm than good.
I'm fairly certain that we don't have the data available to make that sort of judgement
This is GOOD?

No "available data?"

You serious?
I'm absolutely serious. Take your ranting - all you did was switch to the other train. Did it hurt Amtrak's bottom line? Nope. Probably even helped it, since the increased demand on the Meteor is going to drive up prices.

On the other hand, the cost-conscious folks that don't care about a dining car have an option as well, so Amtrak is likely expanding their customer base.

Add in the potential for saving money on maintaining the diners they can park (not insignificant, since they're old and falling apart), and the ammunition to tell Congress "we tried a train without a diner, and got uniformly negative feedback, dining cars are a must on LD trains", and your claim that this is causing "more harm than good falls flat on its face.

So yeah - unless you've got the internal data to see what's actually happening with this, we can't really make any judgements about how much harm or good this is causing.
 
Crummy food.

It's telling how Amtrak's brain trust didn't even consider upgrading the lounge car's JUNK FOOD offerings.

A successful business doesn't kick its customers in the shin.
Who said anything about Amtrak being a successful business?
 
Just looking at the fare levels on typical itineraries and the amount of sold out days through the month of September, there is no clear indication that loads are unusually skewed on one train or the other between the Star and the Meteor. So at least for now, until we see the real numbers in the monthly reports we cannot say for sure what the actual effects are of the change.Since the Star has one less Sleeper than the Meteor, statistically you'd expect it to be more sold out than the Meteor, and that is exactly what is found. The Star seems to be in lower bucket than the Meteor further out, but by the time the departure date comes by they seem to get caught up. There seems to be little discernible difference in Coach fares.

At least for now I am waiting to see the actual numbers.
 
Sorry but this test just is not very revealing. With both trains close to selling out how can this test be valid ? Just some very dissatisfied passengers ? Many of the Columbia & Tampa route passengers did not know an alternate choice as they do not know the ins and outs of substituting the Meteor. As well time constraints also matter.
 
If both trains continue to sell out it would show that passengers don't place high value in the diner. It seems early to pass judgement.
 
If both trains continue to sell out it would show that passengers don't place high value in the diner. It seems early to pass judgement.
Actually, West Point is right.

If both trains continue to sell out the validity of the passenger numbers as a legitimate criteria for service preference is weakened when extrapolating to routes which are not resource constrained.
 
If both trains continue to sell out it would show that passengers don't place high value in the diner. It seems early to pass judgement.
Actually, West Point is right.

If both trains continue to sell out the validity of the passenger numbers as a legitimate criteria for service preference is weakened when extrapolating to routes which are not resource constrained.
Sorry I don't quite follow, you mean that there are enough people riding that the demand for seats (or rooms) is higher than the demand for the dining car? If you (hypothetically) added passenger capacity linearly then the Star would stop filling the seats before the Meteor?
 
If the Florida trains are selling out, and it sounds like they are, how can this be a true test? There may be more potential than capacity. People have to get from point A to B and flying isn't an option for them, so when they are forced to either bring their own food (not an option for most), or eat the limited non-nutritious menu Congress would prefer the public consume or not eat at all, they still have to travel.

Airlines eliminated meals trying to save money since the cost of a meal per passenger was $30 - $50, totally outrageous. But did the fares go down when the meals were eliminated? NO! Passengers complained, did the airlines listen? not at first, but then they brought in expensive snacks for purchase.
 
While an interesting data point, Amtrak sleeper fares on the Star were considerably reduced when the included meals went away.

"Amtrak: just as bad as the airlines (except when it isn't)"
 
The bottom line though is, if on a particular route there is so much demand that you can fill trains at a fare level that makes the service operationally viable with minimal dining service, then why would one bother with fancy dining service? Maybe just improved menu in a better lunge environment is all that is needed. This is philosophy similar to what the airlines used when they went from food service to food for purchase in domestic Y. I don't necessarily like it, but I can see the logic in it.

One interesting thing ts that while the Sleeper fares were reduced because they included food previously, Coach fares were not reduced even though the amenity of optional access to Dining Car was taken away, and therefore I think getting the differences in Coach booking would be an important metric to watch too.

Ideally what should have been done in the experiment is to have kept the Dining Car but made it optional for Sleeper passengers with a fare reduction to base transport and accommodation, and then compare what happened between the Star and the Meteor, and how many people chose to use the Diner anyway on their own dime. But that was not done, and it is not clear to me what this particular experiment actually helps establish other than that a train is viable or not sans Dining Car. Given the demand profile, as mentioned by some, the lack of inventory may confound the results of the experiment in this case.
 
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The bottom line though is, if on a particular route there is so much demand that you can fill trains at a fare level that makes the service operationally viable with minimal dining service, then why would one bother with fancy dining service? Maybe just improved menu in a better lunge environment is all that is needed. This is philosophy similar to what the airlines used when they went from food service to food for purchase in domestic Y. I don't necessarily like it, but I can see the logic in it.

One interesting thing ts that while the Sleeper fates were reduced because they included food previously, Coach fares were not reduced even though the amenity of optional access to Dining Car was taken away, and therefore I think getting the differences in Coach booking would be an important metric to watch too.

Ideally what should have been done in the experiment is to have kept the Dining Car but made it optional for Sleeper passengers with a fare reduction to base transport and accommodation, and then compare what happened between the Star and the Meteor, and how many people chose to use the Diner anyway on their own dime. But that was not done, and it is not clear to me what this particular experiment actually helps establish other than that a train is viable or not sans Dining Car. Given the demand profile, as mentioned by some, the lack of inventory may confound the results of the experiment in this case.
I don't know if hard core Amtrak fans want to test this theory but maybe try the idea of rooms with or w/o meals on either the CL or LSL. Maybe have meals included in the price of full bedrooms but not in the price of roomettes.

I tried PHL to ORL leaving Thur. Jan. 7, 2016 and returning Mon. Jan. 11, 2016 (dates chosen to avoid holiday period or close dates because some rooms sold out).

From PHL:

Silver Star Roomette: $334 (4 available)

Silver Meteor Roomette: $526

From ORL:

Silver Meteor Roomette: $427 (3 available)

Silver Star Roomette: $303 (4 available)

The Meteor times going back are 1:35pm-9:30am so imagine if meals were included then you would get dinner and breakfast. If I assume the $334 and $427, then you are saying dinner and breakfast are worth $93. That's a lot of money for one trip (and double it for a round trip). If you remove meals from all sleeper service, that $24 Amtrak steak will probably be more like a $30-$40 Amtrak steak though.

I still think $606 is a lot to pay for a round trip to ORL for a single person (especially since the coach is $200-$300 depending on which ticket type you get) but it's still better than $854.
 
Excellent idea about having the Roomettes be like the old Slumber Coach, sans Meals, and have the Bedrooms include the Meals in the Dinner!

I rode the Southern Crescent many times in Slumber Coach between WAS and ATL and enjoyed Breakfast in the Diner on my dime! (and a mighty fine one I assure you!)

Disclaimer: Regular Sleeper pax All Paid for their meals in the Diner, as did Amtrak, up until what, the early 90s???

It was a nice savings for a poor government hand just starting out !

This would make an excellent test so Amtrak could get some meaningful data for the mica-managers on the Hill!
 
It's causing more harm than good.
I'm fairly certain that we don't have the data available to make that sort of judgement.
ryan, the great sherlock holmes said that he couldn't theorize without data. he also said that occasionally circumstantial evidence is very convincing. as when one finds a trout in the milk. i find the circumstantial evidence, as regards amtrak, quite convincing
 
In a few days we shall get the July MPR. That should put this "data" debate to an end.

Personally, I expect a significant increase in sleeper passengers, a sharp drop in sleeper revenue (even more than the fare cut, due to short trips); and no significant difference in coach revenue on the Star. On the Meteor I expect a significant increase in sleeper revenue (longer trips), with ridership slightly up or holding steady.

As a pre-comparison point - were there any major trackwork programs or service disruptions in July 2014 that need to be controlled for?
 
In a few days we shall get the July MPR. That should put this "data" debate to an end.

Personally, I expect a significant increase in sleeper passengers, a sharp drop in sleeper revenue (even more than the fare cut, due to short trips); and no significant difference in coach revenue on the Star. On the Meteor I expect a significant increase in sleeper revenue (longer trips), with ridership slightly up or holding steady.

As a pre-comparison point - were there any major trackwork programs or service disruptions in July 2014 that need to be controlled for?
I expect the July MPR will drop soon, but I think people will have to wait until the August and September numbers are available to provide enough time after the start of the "experiment" to say much about how it is effecting ridership and revenue, As for service disruptions in July, thanks to the Amtrak Status Maps database tool, it is easy to check if there were any cancelled or disrupted trips or horribly late runs for the Star and Meteor.
The Star sleeper revenue may not drop that much due to the additional roomettes they could sell with no diner crew.
 
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