Jurisdiction of Onboard Incidents

[ColdRain&Snow]

Over the past few months, I have witnessed a pair of onboard incidents that both resulted in the arrest of the passenger. The first one was in Klamath Falls on 7/3, where an intoxicated man was put off the train by the conductor and handed over to four KFPD officers.

The second incident occurred on 9/2, involving a guy who wandered off the platform at Havre and was left behind. Based on info I was getting from my scanner, OBS crew accounts, and from what I could see out the window, here is my understanding of what happened:

-A passenger was left behind at Havre and panicked. He paid a local person $100 to catch up to the train.

-He caught up with our train at Shelby. Was dropped off on the non-station side. Doors had already closed for departure, but he was on the wrong side anyways. The man began pacing next to the train.

-I hear our engineer radio the conductor about a man standing near the train. The man apparently backs away and we begin to leave the station.

-About 30 seconds later, the conductor yells into the radio that the man just jumped the train.

-The engineer invokes the emergency brake and “dumps the air.”

-The guy had grabbed the silver railing next to the Coach door, presumably thinking he could open it somehow. [Where did he put his feet?]

-The conductor called the Sheriff and we waited for their arrival.

-The conductor later commented over the radio that it would be handled as a federal matter.

-It was a strange incident that seemed to be an irrational act made out of desperation. The guy must have believed that he could get the door open before we reached track speed? :blink:

These incidents left me wondering how jurisdiction is determined when trouble breaks out on the train and law enforcement is called in. Is it the nature of the onboard offense that dictates whether it is addressed at the local, state, or federal level? Curious how this works.

 

[pennyk]

I am curious also. A couple of weeks ago, when I was on the Cardinal, a male passenger who had been drinking was "molesting" a female passenger, who complained to the conductor. At our next stop in Hinton, West Virginia, the local police were waiting for the train. It appeared that the drunk passenger was taken into custody by the Hinton police.

I do not know if common carrier law applies or the law of the jurisdiction in which the train is traveling at the time.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Penny: Ive had conductors tell me, like all things legal ,that it depends! :lol: Most of the people that Ive seen put off from trains were handcuffed/hauled away by various locals, sherrifs/local Barney Fifes etc. Have never seen an Amtrak cop arrest anyone, they just sort of hang around. The Feds that Ive seen in action (DEA/Border patrol etc. were just looking for drugs or illegals. As others have said I think the FBI only gets involved when called in by the agency with the local jurisdiction, not sure about other states, but in Texas sworn officers have statewide jurisdiction! Washington DC might be all Federal since it is Federal property?? Jim

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So if you get left behind is your ticket void and worthless at that point? What about if you're arrested and eventually released? If it took all your money to resolve your legal situation are you simply stuck in whatever town arrested you?

 

[jis]

So if you get left behind is your ticket void and worthless at that point? What about if you're arrested and eventually released? If it took all your money to resolve your legal situation are you simply stuck in whatever town arrested you?

The answers most likely are Yes, still void and worthless, and Yes.

 

[JayPea]

I know in our town, out-of-towners aren't stuck if they happen to get arrested and subsequently released. There is a bus stop (Amtrak Thruway bus stop, in fact) just across the street from me and there is a fund the county has to pay for bus tickets to send ex-prisoners back to their homes.

 

[zephyr17]

The strangest thing I've ever encountered was on the Starlight and it was clear that jurisdiction is more than a bit muddy, at least in some cases. A few minutes after leaving Emeryville, the train stopped, and I heard some chatter on the scanner about a guy and his girlfriend causing problems (don't recall exactly, although they talked about it). We ended up pulling up to some intersection in Richmond, where the Richmond cops met us and took the couple off with what they though was all their luggage.

Based on radio conversations from the scanner, it turned out that the couple did not take ALL their luggage off, and left a big suitcase. The conductor opened it for some reason, and found a fairly large quantity of marijuana. At the station stop in Martinez, they had arranged with the Martinez cops meet the train to take it off, and the conductor had just said we were finished with the station work and to highball Martinez then came back on to tell the engineer to stop. It turned out that the Martinez police didn't think they could take custody of it, and thought the Richmond police should come out. There was a lot of to and fro on the platform and cell phone calls by cops, crew, etc. After awhile the UP dispatcher came on the radio wanting to know what was going on. It turned out that the Richmond police didn't think they should come out either, and we were waiting for an Amtrak policeman to come and take it, which is apparently what ultimately happened. We sat in Martinez for something over an hour.

Don't know any more, but the I sure got my money's worth in entertainment out of my scanner that night.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The answers most likely are Yes, still void and worthless, and Yes.

Hmm. If you miss a flight they might charge a change fee but they'll still try to get you to your destination. At least that's how they've handled any flights I've missed. Supposedly even if you run into legal trouble that prevents you from flying you might be able to fly out again on the original ticket once you're finally released. I'm sure there are situations where you're truly stuck and of course you'll be at the mercy of the airline in any case and without any specific rights to demand anything. Still, from what I've seen and read chances are you'll eventually get home one way or another. It seems odd that Amtrak would do absolutely nothing for people in similar situations. Looking at the guy who got left behind I wonder what he was supposed to do. It makes his mad dash seem a little less bizarre if the only resolution Amtrak provides is to purchase a second ticket on the next train out. If that $100 was all he had then I guess he figured a Hollywood style car chase was his best chance out of there.

 

[Asst Conductor OKJ]

Jurisdiction on Amtrak Trains is Federal...trains are owned by the federal govt, crimes commited on board are commeted on federal property. Sense there is a very limited number of Amtrak Police officers outside of the NEC, when the PD is called its the locals (PD/Sheriff/State Trooper) and persons detained until Amtrak PD can get an officer out, or the local PD will cite the person and turn the case over to the Amtrak PD for prosicution, depending on the severity of the crime.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

So if you get left behind is your ticket void and worthless at that point? What about if you're arrested and eventually released? If it took all your money to resolve your legal situation are you simply stuck in whatever town arrested you?

Not the same thing but I met this guy on 354 the wolverine. He had just gotten out of jail for back child support. The judge gave him a Amtrak ticket and said get out of my city or something like that.

 

[MikefromCrete]

The answers most likely are Yes, still void and worthless, and Yes.

Hmm. If you miss a flight they might charge a change fee but they'll still try to get you to your destination. At least that's how they've handled any flights I've missed. Supposedly even if you run into legal trouble that prevents you from flying you might be able to fly out again on the original ticket once you're finally released. I'm sure there are situations where you're truly stuck and of course you'll be at the mercy of the airline in any case and without any specific rights to demand anything. Still, from what I've seen and read chances are you'll eventually get home one way or another. It seems odd that Amtrak would do absolutely nothing for people in similar situations. Looking at the guy who got left behind I wonder what he was supposed to do. It makes his mad dash seem a little less bizarre if the only resolution Amtrak provides is to purchase a second ticket on the next train out. If that $100 was all he had then I guess he figured a Hollywood style car chase was his best chance out of there.

I suppose this guy could have called Amtrak and waited around for 24 hours until the next train arrived. Since he probably didn't want to waste a day, he hired somebody to give chase. His problem occurred when he tried to ride on the OUTSIDE of the train, a truly dangerous and foolish act. Best advice: don't wander away from the train during a stop!

 

[leemell]

Penny: Ive had conductors tell me, like all things legal ,that it depends! :lol: Most of the people that Ive seen put off from trains were handcuffed/hauled away by various locals, sherrifs/local Barney Fifes etc. Have never seen an Amtrak cop arrest anyone, they just sort of hang around. The Feds that Ive seen in action (DEA/Border patrol etc. were just looking for drugs or illegals. As others have said I think the FBI only gets involved when called in by the agency with the local jurisdiction, not sure about other states, but in Texas sworn officers have statewide jurisdiction! Washington DC might be all Federal since it is Federal property?? Jim

In California, all sworn officers regardless of duties or department have law enforcement powers in the entire state. You could be arrested in Sacramento by LA School District police. DC is a Federal enclave and everything is at the whim of the Feds and ultimately Congress.

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

Jurisdiction on Amtrak Trains is Federal...trains are owned by the federal govt, crimes commited on board are commeted on federal property. Sense there is a very limited number of Amtrak Police officers outside of the NEC, when the PD is called its the locals (PD/Sheriff/State Trooper) and persons detained until Amtrak PD can get an officer out, or the local PD will cite the person and turn the case over to the Amtrak PD for prosicution, depending on the severity of the crime.

Wow, so playing this tape through, federal jurisdiction would lead to federal charges being tried in a U.S. Court, culminating in the possibility of being sentenced to the federal penitentiary. Serious stuff, and I imagine many of these people have no idea that they've just committed a federal offense.

 

[Chatter163]

Jurisdiction on Amtrak Trains is Federal...trains are owned by the federal govt, crimes commited on board are commeted on federal property. Sense there is a very limited number of Amtrak Police officers outside of the NEC, when the PD is called its the locals (PD/Sheriff/State Trooper) and persons detained until Amtrak PD can get an officer out, or the local PD will cite the person and turn the case over to the Amtrak PD for prosicution, depending on the severity of the crime.

I believe that this post is in error.

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

Jurisdiction on Amtrak Trains is Federal...trains are owned by the federal govt, crimes commited on board are commeted on federal property. Sense there is a very limited number of Amtrak Police officers outside of the NEC, when the PD is called its the locals (PD/Sheriff/State Trooper) and persons detained until Amtrak PD can get an officer out, or the local PD will cite the person and turn the case over to the Amtrak PD for prosicution, depending on the severity of the crime.

I believe that this post is in error.

Can you be a little more specific? Sounds like the answer to this question is still a bit elusive, so any additional insight would be appreciated.

 

[Ispolkom]

Jurisdiction on Amtrak Trains is Federal...trains are owned by the federal govt, crimes commited on board are commeted on federal property. Sense there is a very limited number of Amtrak Police officers outside of the NEC, when the PD is called its the locals (PD/Sheriff/State Trooper) and persons detained until Amtrak PD can get an officer out, or the local PD will cite the person and turn the case over to the Amtrak PD for prosicution, depending on the severity of the crime.

I believe that this post is in error.

Can you be a little more specific? Sounds like the answer to this question is still a bit elusive, so any additional insight would be appreciated.

Probably the answer is "It depends." I doubt that Amtrak is going to make a federal case (literally) about somebody removed from the Empire Builder in Glasgow, Montana, for being drunk and disorderly. Much of the year, being removed at Glasgow is probably punishment enough. More serious crimes are perhaps handled differently. Remember, for instance, that if you shoot a mailman, it's a federal beef, but if you gun down a FedEx delivery person it's a state crime. But I doubt that Amtrak trains are actually federal property. Amtrak, after all, isn't a federal agency.

DC is a Federal enclave and everything is at the whim of the Feds and ultimately Congress.

DC used to have, I think, 18 different police forces. My favorites included the Library of Congress Police (now defunct), and the Uniformed Division of the Secret Service (what part of "secret" did you forget?).

I am not a lawyer, though, and this isn't legal advice.

 

[George Harris]

Jurisdiction on Amtrak Trains is Federal...trains are owned by the federal govt, crimes commited on board are commeted on federal property. Sense there is a very limited number of Amtrak Police officers outside of the NEC, when the PD is called its the locals (PD/Sheriff/State Trooper) and persons detained until Amtrak PD can get an officer out, or the local PD will cite the person and turn the case over to the Amtrak PD for prosicution, depending on the severity of the crime.

I believe that this post is in error.

I believe that the conclusion is correct, but not the logic that got there. Amtrak is nominally a private company with the majority of the ownership in the hands of Uncle Sugar. I think it is something like what the Brits would call it a Crown Corporation.
Why it would be Federal is because of the Interstate Commerce provision in the Constitution and laws and court decisions derived therefrom. Even when operating entirely within the boundaries of a single state, railroads fall under the jurisdiction of the Feds. Prior to the FRA, it was the ICC (Interstate Commerce Commission)

This applies whether or not there is government ownership involved.