Lancaster Airport, Keystone Service, and some random thoughts.

[benjibear]

This topic started thinking after I saw a newstory on TV. Lancaster, PA airport has Cape Air who is getting $1.64 million in subsidies to run 5 fllights a day bewteen Lancaster and BWI airport. The airline is pulling out and they are now looking for another airline to takes it's place.

I am sure many airlines get similar subsidies especially to serve small airports.

I am not sure why there is even a need for comercial service in Lancaster. If you need to fly go 30-40 minutes to Harrisburg, 1 hour 30-40 minutes to Philly, or probably a little longer to just drive to BWI. I just want to also point out that you can get to all three from Lancaster via Amtrak but currently the linkk between Middletown Amtrak and the Airport may be difficult but they are planning an intermodal station closer to the airport for this purpose. I say give the money to Amtrak, that airport, and for operational expensis to make it work. I think that would be much more benificial than an airline between Lancaster and BWI.

This led me to other thoughts. I know it would be longer travel time but with security may be just as long but you could take Amtrak from Lancaster to BWI but that would require a change over in Philly. What if there was a direct train. It would be similar to the NYP train but you would end up at WAS. It would be feasible through Philly and actually probably easier because to get to NYP it had to switch directions. I know it would take longer than driving but you wouldn't have to deal with the traffic. Maybe if high speed rail continues to grow this could be a much closer option.

So there are my random thoughts for this morning. Am I crazy?

 

[ParrotRob]

1334405001[/url]' post='360826']This topic started thinking after I saw a newstory on TV. Lancaster, PA airport has Cape Air who is getting $1.64 million in subsidies to run 5 fllights a day bewteen Lancaster and BWI airport. The airline is pulling out and they are now looking for another airline to takes it's place.

I am sure many airlines get similar subsidies especially to serve small airports.

I am not sure why there is even a need for comercial service in Lancaster. If you need to fly go 30-40 minutes to Harrisburg, 1 hour 30-40 minutes to Philly, or probably a little longer to just drive to BWI. I just want to also point out that you can get to all three from Lancaster via Amtrak but currently the linkk between Middletown Amtrak and the Airport may be difficult but they are planning an intermodal station closer to the airport for this purpose. I say give the money to Amtrak, that airport, and for operational expensis to make it work. I think that would be much more benificial than an airline between Lancaster and BWI.

This led me to other thoughts. I know it would be longer travel time but with security may be just as long but you could take Amtrak from Lancaster to BWI but that would require a change over in Philly. What if there was a direct train. It would be similar to the NYP train but you would end up at WAS. It would be feasible through Philly and actually probably easier because to get to NYP it had to switch directions. I know it would take longer than driving but you wouldn't have to deal with the traffic. Maybe if high speed rail continues to grow this could be a much closer option.

So there are my random thoughts for this morning. Am I crazy?

What's crazy is that someone feels the need for commercial air service in Lancaster. But then again, this is the same state that brought you, the taxpayer, Interstate 99 courtesy of Bud Shuster. Lancaster is only 40 miles from Harrisburg. I live in Frederick, Maryland which is at least 40 miles from BWI, IAD and DCA, and I'm pretty sure no one is funding commercial air service out of Frederick, despite having 5000 more people than Lancaster. Hell, if Cape Air is pulling out despite the subsidies, there's clearly not the demand for this service. Tell the people of Lancaster to get in their buggies and drive to the airport like the rest of us do.

If I lived in Lancaster County and wanted to take a train to an airport, BWI Would be my first choice despite the PHL connection. PHL is an easy station to connect in and there is frequent service to BWI, which in turn has a great air-to-rail intermodal transfer. Also BWI is a much bigger airport than MDT, with many more travel options.

I don't think the connection in Philadelphia is so difficult that it warrants direct service from Harrisburg->Philadelphia->Points South, but that's just my $0.02

 

[benjibear]

I live in Frederick, Maryland which is at least 40 miles from BWI, IAD and DCA, and I'm pretty sure no one is funding commercial air service out of Frederick, despite having 5000 more people than Lancaster.

While looking at Cape Air, they do offer service from Hagerstown to BWI. I know Hagerstown is farther than Frederick but still is that service really needed?

 

[ParrotRob]

1334407410[/url]' post='360829']

1334406915[/url]' post='360828']I live in Frederick, Maryland which is at least 40 miles from BWI, IAD and DCA, and I'm pretty sure no one is funding commercial air service out of Frederick, despite having 5000 more people than Lancaster.

While looking at Cape Air, they do offer service from Hagerstown to BWI. I know Hagerstown is farther than Frederick but still is that service really needed?

Nope, that's a boondoggle too. Hagerstown is even smaller than Frederick. It's about an hour and a half drive to Baltimore and two and a half to Pittsburgh. USAir used to offer regional service from Hagerstown to Pittsburgh back when Pittsburgh was a pretty big hub for them, but the few times I took that route were expensive and planes less than half full.

I'm not against taxpayer subsidies for public transport, but I am against the foolish spending of money on a service only a handful of people use. I wonder, statistically, how many people were actually flying to and from Lancaster, or Hagerstown for that matter.

The right answer for Lancaster and Hagerstown BOTH is probably bus service direct to Baltimore a couple times a day. The bus could stop in downtown Baltimore and also at BWI, which would service air travelers and southbound train travelers without the need to go out of their way to PHL.

Edit: just did the research on statistics. See below.

 

[ParrotRob]

Incidentally, both Baltimore-based Cape Air routes (Lancaster and Hagerstown) are flown on Cessna 402c's. These are 30 year old NINE SEAT aircraft with incredibly cramped, non-pressurized cabins, making the flight 45 minutes of hell. Despite having only nine seats, the routes flew at only 27, 35 and 42 percent capacity in the last three years. So between the two routes, Cape Air was getting roughly $3 million per year to shuttle TWO to FOUR people to Baltimore. Assuming an average of three people per flight, ten flights per day, that's about 11,000 pax per year or about $270 per passenger. Why not just give each passenger $200 and put them in a cab, it would save the government three quarters of a million dollars a year.

The program you have to thank for this debacle is the federal "Essential Air Service" program, which designated about 150 small cities as requiring "essential" air service and providing over a hundred million dollars in taxpayer funding to provide it.

So for all three of you flying from Lancaster to Baltimore on that $59 Cape Air fare, when you land, look around you and thank all the people around you for picking up the other $270 of the cost to haul you over this "essential" air corridor.

 

[PRR 60]

It it were not for obvious political considerations with MDT airport and Harrisburg, I've often thought that PennDOT should fund the extension of couple of Keystones through 30th Street to PHL airport. Unlike EWR and BWI, at PHL the train would terminate inside the airport terminal with direct access to check-in and the gates. In less than two hours a passenger could go from Elizabethtown or Parkesburg directly to a major international hub airport.

Of course, MDT, already reeling from the loss of AirTran, would not like to see anything that would further diminish traffic there, but from a passenger perspective, feeder service by rail to PHL would seem to be a winner given the existing, underused infrastructure.

 

[afigg]

Some news articles to provide additional background info on Cape Air ending EAS supported service between Lancaster, Hagerstown and BWI airports.

Lancaster Online article from late February. $1.64 million EAS subsidy to fly 13,624 passenger to BWI in 2011; $99 nominal one-way ticket price; ridership was increasing however. They were considering switching the flights to Dulles airport or to White Plains in NY. The crazy part is the idea of flying people to White Plains so they could take a one hour limo ride into NYC. Hello? Keystone service to NYP? Laguardia and JFK would be more logical destinations, but the landing slots were likely way too expensive for a small prop plane.

Lancaster Online article on April 12 on Cape Air looking to end the service until a successor airline can be found. Comments are interesting as no one brings up the Keystone option.

Not as easy finding one news article on the Hagerstown flights, but found several news items that state the EAS subsidy is $1.2 million a year, but the service was at risk because it was averaging only 9.7 passengers a day. Yikes. Hagerstown has struggled to keep any commercial air service.

Even with a subsidy, it is not worth it to Cape Air to operate flights between Hagerstown, Lancaster and BWI. Lancaster has good reasonably speedy train service options to PHL, BWI, Newark, Harrisburg airports. With the new station in Middletown to improve the connections to the Harrisburg airport, although I would most in Lancaster would drive to the Harrisburg aiport.

Hagerstown is more isolated and does not have the train service options Lancaster has. I think Maryland has looked at expanding MARC or supporting Amtrak service to Hagerstown, but don't think those plans are anything more than vague long term ideas.

 

[afigg]

Incidentally, both Baltimore-based Cape Air routes (Lancaster and Hagerstown) are flown on Cessna 402c's. These are 30 year old NINE SEAT aircraft with incredibly cramped, non-pressurized cabins, making the flight 45 minutes of hell. Despite having only nine seats, the routes flew at only 27, 35 and 42 percent capacity in the last three years. So between the two routes, Cape Air was getting roughly $3 million per year to shuttle TWO to FOUR people to Baltimore. Assuming an average of three people per flight, ten flights per day, that's about 11,000 pax per year or about $270 per passenger. Why not just give each passenger $200 and put them in a cab, it would save the government three quarters of a million dollars a year.

The program you have to thank for this debacle is the federal "Essential Air Service" program, which designated about 150 small cities as requiring "essential" air service and providing over a hundred million dollars in taxpayer funding to provide it.

So for all three of you flying from Lancaster to Baltimore on that $59 Cape Air fare, when you land, look around you and thank all the people around you for picking up the other $270 of the cost to haul you over this "essential" air corridor.

The numbers are 13,624 to/from Lancaster last year for $1.64 million in EAS subsidy. About $120 a passenger. The Hagerstown service is the bigger loser per passenger service here. If one is going to support federal & state funding for Amtrak - and highways, roads, air travel, infrastructure, etc - I think we also have to support EAS as a general concept. The issue with EAS is supporting flights from a city like Lancaster which has train service options that few small cities in the US have.

What I think will happen - and what appears to be happening here - is that even with subsidies, the airlines will not be able to maintain service to numerous small city airports. Especially those that are within 1-2 hours driving time of a bigger city airport. Sustained high oil prices will change air travel patterns and force the airlines to consolidate to flying larger airplanes with fewer flights per day from the medium size airports while slowly shutting down commercial service entirely to most small airports. The EAS subsidies simply won't be enough, even at $400 to $500 a passenger. The EAS subsidies will be forced to shift to supporting flights to medium sized airports with the current subsidized services remaining for only the more remote small airports. If more politicians had better foresight, they would be supporting intercity passenger rail expansion and projects in their state.

 

[afigg]

This led me to other thoughts. I know it would be longer travel time but with security may be just as long but you could take Amtrak from Lancaster to BWI but that would require a change over in Philly. What if there was a direct train. It would be similar to the NYP train but you would end up at WAS. It would be feasible through Philly and actually probably easier because to get to NYP it had to switch directions. I know it would take longer than driving but you wouldn't have to deal with the traffic. Maybe if high speed rail continues to grow this could be a much closer option.

So there are my random thoughts for this morning. Am I crazy?

You are not crazy. I think there is an argument to be made for several daily Keystone service trains that go south at 30th Street to WIL, BAL, BWI, WAS. Would not need a cab car. Unfortunately can't access the Philly airport unless it is going to terminate there. But there are those in Paoli, Exton, Lancaster, Harrisburg who travel by train to BAL, BWI, WAS who connect at 30th St. A direct through train would increase that business. More so, as trip time improvements are made on the Keystone East corridor and the NEC south of PHL.

Whether PA DOT and Amtrak have ever seriously considered running a Keystone (South?) service to WAS from 30th St, don't know.

 

[Eric S]

The right answer for Lancaster and Hagerstown BOTH is probably bus service direct to Baltimore a couple times a day. The bus could stop in downtown Baltimore and also at BWI, which would service air travelers and southbound train travelers without the need to go out of their way to PHL.

Not sure about Lancaster, but Hagerstown has just such a bus service. BayRunner Shuttle runs a Cumberland-Hagerstown-Frederick-BWI route, as well as a Ocean City-Salisbury-Cambridge-BWI route (they both make more stops than I indicated). Both are also Amtrak Thruway services.

 

[Eric S]

This led me to other thoughts. I know it would be longer travel time but with security may be just as long but you could take Amtrak from Lancaster to BWI but that would require a change over in Philly. What if there was a direct train. It would be similar to the NYP train but you would end up at WAS. It would be feasible through Philly and actually probably easier because to get to NYP it had to switch directions. I know it would take longer than driving but you wouldn't have to deal with the traffic. Maybe if high speed rail continues to grow this could be a much closer option.

So there are my random thoughts for this morning. Am I crazy?

You are not crazy. I think there is an argument to be made for several daily Keystone service trains that go south at 30th Street to WIL, BAL, BWI, WAS. Would not need a cab car. Unfortunately can't access the Philly airport unless it is going to terminate there. But there are those in Paoli, Exton, Lancaster, Harrisburg who travel by train to BAL, BWI, WAS who connect at 30th St. A direct through train would increase that business. More so, as trip time improvements are made on the Keystone East corridor and the NEC south of PHL.

Whether PA DOT and Amtrak have ever seriously considered running a Keystone (South?) service to WAS from 30th St, don't know.

At some point, I think the early or mid-1980s, Amtrak did operate a Metroliner from west of PHL (Downingtown, maybe, don't think it was from HAR) to WAS, need to check timetables.org to verify though.

 

[benjibear]

I think an extension of a Washington-Chicago train did go Harrisburg via the Columbia and Port Deposit Branch to Baltimore and Washington. I drive over that every day and think it would be awesome if it was still running to get to Washington from my area via train.

 

[Eric S]

I think an extension of a Washington-Chicago train did go Harrisburg via the Columbia and Port Deposit Branch to Baltimore and Washington. I drive over that every day and think it would be awesome if it was still running to get to Washington from my area via train.

The Broadway Limited had a Washington section which operated over that route for a time (with the split occurring in HAR), and operated over the NEC with the split occuring at PHL. I believe this service ended when the Capitol Limited became a separate train operating over its current route between PGH and WAS.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I am only talking about service in the Amtrak era, not the PRR/PC trains earlier.

 

[fairviewroad]

The problem with extending a "Keystone" train south of PHL is that most people are going to look at a map and realize how out of the way it is to travel from Harrisburg

or Lancaster to Baltimore/Washington via Philadelphia. Yeah, there might be demand for through service from Main Line stops like Ardmore/Paoli/Downingtown but

frankly those folks have frequent and cheap service to PHL via SEPTA or existing Keystone trains...yeah, you might be able to pick up a few extra passengers by offering

a one-seat ride, but Amtrak simply can't be all things to all people.

Regarding Cape Air in Lancaster...I used to fly into Lancaster on US Airways connecting through PIT once a year or so...but I've never been able to work the Cape Air flight into my

travel plans (as much as I enjoy flying on those small planes....definitely not "45 minutes of hell" for me). It just made no sense to fly into BWI and wait 1 hour or more

for a connection, when you could simply rent a car and drive to Lancaster during the time you were waiting for the connection, and for less money. Lancaster would

benefit more through EAS if the flight was on mainline carrier to an existing hub, allowing rationale connections from more cities.

 

[BobWeaver]

...flown on Cessna 402c's. These are 30 year old NINE SEAT aircraft with incredibly cramped, non-pressurized cabins, making the flight 45 minutes of hell.

Wow. Have you ever even flown on one of these birds? Those sure are some powerful assumptions to make if not. The age of an aircraft doesn't really mean too much when it is well maintained. Delta's DC-9s are decades old, for example.

 

[benjibear]

The problem with extending a "Keystone" train south of PHL is that most people are going to look at a map and realize how out of the way it is to travel from Harrisburg

or Lancaster to Baltimore/Washington via Philadelphia. Yeah, there might be demand for through service from Main Line stops like Ardmore/Paoli/Downingtown but

frankly those folks have frequent and cheap service to PHL via SEPTA or existing Keystone trains...yeah, you might be able to pick up a few extra passengers by offering

a one-seat ride, but Amtrak simply can't be all things to all people.

I agree to an extent. It is probably about 2 and 1/2 hour drive from either Lancaster or Harrisburg to Washington, DC. Direct train would be over 3 hours. However, there is alot of traffic around Baltimore and Washington on the highways. I have sat in traffice delaying my arrival by an hour to a location is suburban Washington DC. Traffic doesn't seam to be getting any better. Gas and cost of driving a car will not significantly go down. HSR hopefully will gain ground and the train speed will increase. I may be a little premature with this but I can see this happening in the future.

 

[ParrotRob]

...flown on Cessna 402c's. These are 30 year old NINE SEAT aircraft with incredibly cramped, non-pressurized cabins, making the flight 45 minutes of hell.

Wow. Have you ever even flown on one of these birds? Those sure are some powerful assumptions to make if not. The age of an aircraft doesn't really mean too much when it is well maintained. Delta's DC-9s are decades old, for example.

Yes, I have, thank you. And I repeat, they are 45 minutes of hell. Have YOU ever flown on one?

By the way, DC-9's are not particularly comfortable, either. It's only been recently that most aircraft makers have realized that people are not all 5'7" and 130 pounds.

 

[Blue Marble Travel]

The problem with extending a "Keystone" train south of PHL is that most people are going to look at a map and realize how out of the way it is to travel from Harrisburg

or Lancaster to Baltimore/Washington via Philadelphia. Yeah, there might be demand for through service from Main Line stops like Ardmore/Paoli/Downingtown but

frankly those folks have frequent and cheap service to PHL via SEPTA or existing Keystone trains...yeah, you might be able to pick up a few extra passengers by offering

a one-seat ride, but Amtrak simply can't be all things to all people.

I agree to an extent. It is probably about 2 and 1/2 hour drive from either Lancaster or Harrisburg to Washington, DC. Direct train would be over 3 hours. However, there is alot of traffic around Baltimore and Washington on the highways. I have sat in traffice delaying my arrival by an hour to a location is suburban Washington DC. Traffic doesn't seam to be getting any better. Gas and cost of driving a car will not significantly go down. HSR hopefully will gain ground and the train speed will increase. I may be a little premature with this but I can see this happening in the future.

I worked the bar of the Downingtown - DC Metroliner a couple of times at the end of the 1980's... everyone got on the train at Ardmore. And I mean, everyone. If we had 120 people aboard pulling into 30th Street, 100 of them had boarded at Ardmore. The train ran empty from Downingtown to Ardmore.

Of course, that is a time-sensitive clientele. It seems to me that a once-a-day one seat ride from Keystone points to DC would get plenty of business, especially since it would be building on the existing Harrisburg - Phila ridership.

EDIT: I mean, of course, a once-a-day "Regional," as opposed to the Metroliner that used to run.

 

[Joeker]

I have business clients in the York, PA area. I either fly to BWI and drive from there, but my last couple of trips I flew to PHL and take the SEPTA train to 30th st and Amtak to Lancaster where I rented my car. Besides enjoying the relatively fast trip on the train I saved over $ 40/day in car rental costs vs renting at the airport.

On my return back to Chicago I have caught the Pennsylyvanian to PittsBurg and the Cap Ltd to Chicago. I am hoping to see the return of the direct connection from the Pennsylvanian to the Cap Ltd.

 

[BobWeaver]

...flown on Cessna 402c's. These are 30 year old NINE SEAT aircraft with incredibly cramped, non-pressurized cabins, making the flight 45 minutes of hell.

Wow. Have you ever even flown on one of these birds? Those sure are some powerful assumptions to make if not. The age of an aircraft doesn't really mean too much when it is well maintained. Delta's DC-9s are decades old, for example.

Yes, I have, thank you. And I repeat, they are 45 minutes of hell. Have YOU ever flown on one?

By the way, DC-9's are not particularly comfortable, either. It's only been recently that most aircraft makers have realized that people are not all 5'7" and 130 pounds.

Yes, I have. I really enjoyed the flight for the exact reasons that you gave as negatives, as most aviation enthusiasts would. How often can one fly on a piston-powered airliner these days? That's pretty cool to me. Airline manufacturers aren't really to blame for the interior setup of a given aircraft. That's usually an airline-specific decision.

 

[ParrotRob]

1334721263[/url]' post='361763']

1334623491[/url]' post='361410']

1334610516[/url]' post='361354']

1334409652[/url]' post='360831']...flown on Cessna 402c's. These are 30 year old NINE SEAT aircraft with incredibly cramped, non-pressurized cabins, making the flight 45 minutes of hell.

Wow. Have you ever even flown on one of these birds? Those sure are some powerful assumptions to make if not. The age of an aircraft doesn't really mean too much when it is well maintained. Delta's DC-9s are decades old, for example.

Yes, I have, thank you. And I repeat, they are 45 minutes of hell. Have YOU ever flown on one?

By the way, DC-9's are not particularly comfortable, either. It's only been recently that most aircraft makers have realized that people are not all 5'7" and 130 pounds.

Yes, I have. I really enjoyed the flight for the exact reasons that you gave as negatives, as most aviation enthusiasts would. How often can one fly on a piston-powered airliner these days? That's pretty cool to me. Airline manufacturers aren't really to blame for the interior setup of a given aircraft. That's usually an airline-specific decision.

I didn't blame Cessna, and I didn't blame McDonnell Douglas. Nor did I blame it being a piston engine. Nine seats, especially in that weird arrangement, is simply too many for the tiny cabin of a 402C.