LD Train Serving San Diego?

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I have suggested to increase/expand LD service to certain cities and increase the number of direct, one seat rides for these areas. Two of them I had previously were Boston and San Jose. BOS has just the LSL extension and SJC has just the CS at this time.

Then I thought of San Diego. They have no LD trains at all ( only have Pacific Surfliner service to/from LAX). So while BOS can still travel to CHI, CLE, and upstate NY (in addition to the NER) and San Jose can go to LAX and the Pacific Northwest, San Diego passengers can only go as far as LAX and have to transfer there to go further.

The three LD trains serving LAX are the SWC, CS, and SL/TE.

I'm thinking the SWC would require an awkward direction change in LAX to head south.

The CS would probably not. If you merged with the published 796 (south) and 763 (north), you would have 5 hrs (1am to 6am) to service the train in San Diego (if there is a place to service an LD train).

One out of the box idea: The SL/TE services Yuma, Arizona. Is there a track between Yuma and San Diego? If so, the SL/TE could theoretically go from Yuma to San Diego and then north into LAX, possibly serving Anaheim or somewhere else in Orange County? The train would still originate/terminate in LAX so service/maintenance wouldn't be an issue compared to extending the CS. You would have to skip Palm Springs, Ontario, and Pomona but none of those served more than 5,000 passengers in 2015 (https://www.amtrak.com/pdf/factsheets/CALIFORNIA15.pdf). You'd be trading those cities for San Diego and Orange County. Perhaps that will increase ridership on the SL/TE.

I don't know whether going via San Diego would be faster/slower from Yuma than going via Palm Springs. If it's later, the SL/TE could actually arrive in LAX at a time closer to a reasonable time compared to the 5:35am it does now (although with my schedule change proposal it wouldn't be a factor).

Of course this all assumes there is a track from Yuma to San Diego (or Maricopa or Tucson or somewhere else in Arizona you want to reroute the SL/TE from).

Then again, if we're talking SL/TE rerouting, the first priority should be Phoenix using the original SL route (1993: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19930502n&item=0030)

I guess San Diego is like San Jose and Boston in suffering from bad geographic locations when it comes to trains. Essentially NYP is the northeast corner for most LD trains like LAX is the southwest corner (with SEA the NW and MIA the SE corners).

 

[CCC1007]

The Coast Starlight did serve San Diego at one point in time, and was cut back due to the reverse move needed to service Los Angeles Union passenger terminal.

While Palm Springs doesn't have many passengers currently, the state of California wants to operate a day train to there from Los Angeles, similar to the cardinal and Hoosier state, to increase the passenger count.

The only reason that the SL doesn't serve Phoenix directly is that Union Pacific wanted to par down on their route miles in Arizona, and chose to use the more rural route to allow for faster trip times on the sunset route. I was in Phoenix about a month ago, and there is a path through the desert that would not cost much, and would directly serve Phoenix with only about 30 minutes of extra time.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The Coast Starlight did serve San Diego at one point in time, and was cut back due to the reverse move needed to service Los Angeles Union passenger terminal.

Interesting. So any train going through LAX from north to south would have to reverse move? I'm assuming the same would apply to the SWC?

The only reason that the SL doesn't serve Phoenix directly is that Union Pacific wanted to par down on their route miles in Arizona, and chose to use the more rural route to allow for faster trip times on the sunset route. I was in Phoenix about a month ago, and there is a path through the desert that would not cost much, and would directly serve Phoenix with only about 30 minutes of extra time.

With the current schedule, an extra 30 minutes means the train gets in at 6:05am instead of 5:35am. Make it an extra hour or two and the train can get into LAX in daylight. Extra time doesn't mean much to me with the current LAX arrival.

 

[TinCan782]

The Coast Starlight did serve San Diego at one point in time, and was cut back due to the reverse move needed to service Los Angeles Union passenger terminal.

Interesting. So any train going through LAX from north to south would have to reverse move? I'm assuming the same would apply to the SWC?

Yes, that is correct. The Pacific Surfliner and Metrolink commuter trains operate "push/pull" making a reverse move a moot point since a cab car is on the end opposite the loco. There is (for some time now) discussion and proposals for "run-through" tracks at LAUS.

 

[CCC1007]

The problem with LAUPT is that it's a terminus.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Hello! There's no working track from Yuma AZ to San Diego CA. The remaining section is old, worn out, and runs through Mexico for a large part of it. There used to be passenger trains along this route, until everyone got fed up with the constant fires, tunnel collapses and landslides that they decided not to fix it. The only remnant of trains here is the San Diego Blue Line Trolley from Downtown to San Ysidro, and a small heritage train that runs from it's small depot in Campo CA to the tunnel into Mexico a little bit west. That's about it. The tracks east of there to Yuma are abandoned and replaced by other stuff, so there's effectively no through track to Yuma. There has never been tracks from SD to Yuma completely inside the United States (without detouring up to the LA area). Check it out on Google Earth if you can.

It would be nice if the Starlight sent some cars down the coast to San Diego. It did earlier, but the Coast starlight was constantly late back then, that they stopped the practice. Now it's on-time a lot more, so this idea is a good one. Really, the SL/TXE could also send some cars down on #562 to San Diego, as this train is miraculously on time most of the time, and #562 departs LA at 6:15am (perfect timing). The same cars could go back up on #591 (maybe shift 591's schedule)

And yeah, LA union is a terminus. As mentioned above, the train switches direction at LA, and the Pacific Surfliner does this everyday. It's a bigger problem with LD trains though, since there's no cab car at the end, only a regular sleeper or coach car.

 

[afigg]

Yes, that is correct. The Pacific Surfliner and Metrolink commuter trains operate "push/pull" making a reverse move a moot point since a cab car is on the end opposite the loco. There is (for some time now) discussion and proposals for "run-through" tracks at LAUS.

The plan for run-through tracks at LA Union Station has moved from taking about stage to official plans and re-doing the environmental and engineering design studies. The project is now called the Southern California Regional Interconnector Project (SCRIP) (link to a 2 page fact sheet from December 2014 which has a projected 2019 completion date). Searching for more recent news, came across this October 2015 presentation to the LA Metro board. From the presentation, the SCRIP run-through track design has to accommodate future plans for HSR tracks and platforms, so SCRIP is getting tied up in the CA HSR project. Based on the viewgraphs, SCRIP is not going to advance to start of construction for at least several more years.

As for extending the Coast Starlight to San Diego, even when the run-through tracks at LA Union Station are completed, I doubt Amtrak will have any interest in doing so. LA is where the overnight service facilities for the LD trains are. However, I think California's plans for the Coast Daylight are to run it to San Diego, since the Coast Daylight would be essentially an extension of a Surfliner train to San Francisco. A San Diego to LA to San Jose to San Francisco daytime train should be popular.

 

[neroden]

FWIW the Mexican portion of the San Diego - Yuma line is actually operating, but border paranoia has been so extreme for *my entire lifetime* that I don't expect to see through traffic again before I die.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

As for extending the Coast Starlight to San Diego, even when the run-through tracks at LA Union Station are completed, I doubt Amtrak will have any interest in doing so. LA is where the overnight service facilities for the LD trains are. However, I think California's plans for the Coast Daylight are to run it to San Diego, since the Coast Daylight would be essentially an extension of a Surfliner train to San Francisco. A San Diego to LA to San Jose to San Francisco daytime train should be popular.

Isn't the Coast Starlight essentially a "day" train between LAX and SJC? I think we really need an overnight train between the cities. If I had to travel 10+ hrs between the two cities, I'd rather sleep off the hours than give up my entire day. If you did a 12 hr shift of the CS times between SAC and LAX and extend them to San Diego, it would be a pretty good schedule IMO.

 

[CCC1007]

That would make too much sense. More sense would be to operate up the Central Valley, overnight, as there is higher population in that region than on the coast.

 

[Eric S]

One of the more recent (2014, maybe 2015) planning reports for the Coast Daylight projected a second, overnight train being added at some point after the initial, daytime train begins. You could probably dig up one of the threads here about the Coast Daylight proposals, or google it to see the proposals.

Of course, CAHSR looms over all these plans. Although a market would likely remain for service to the intermediate Coast Line stations, I'm not sure a market would remain for overnight service.

 

[fairviewroad]

If we're just dreaming, how about a train from LAX, through San Diego, down to Cabo San Lucas. Are there tracks? Probably not, but with enough money and political will you can do anything. This route would do well with both tourists and VFR traffic, I'd wager.

 

[jis]

If we're just dreaming, how about a train from LAX, through San Diego, down to Cabo San Lucas. Are there tracks? Probably not, but with enough money and political will you can do anything. This route would do well with both tourists and VFR traffic, I'd wager.

Just stretch it all the way to Tierra del Fuego The new Pan American Railway project!

 

[Bob Dylan]

That would make for a long trestle over the Sea of Cortez or else a fleet of Train Ferries to get the Trains to/from the Baja to the Mainland of Mexico!

Reminds me of "The Old Pantegonian Express"!

 

[neroden]

If the border paranoia ever died down, the first international route to Mexico City should be Mexico City - San Luis Potosi - Monterrey - Laredo-San Antonio-Austin-DFW

Second should be Mexico City - Torreon-Chihuahua-Juarez-El Paso-Albuquerque.

 

[afigg]

Isn't the Coast Starlight essentially a "day" train between LAX and SJC? I think we really need an overnight train between the cities. If I had to travel 10+ hrs between the two cities, I'd rather sleep off the hours than give up my entire day. If you did a 12 hr shift of the CS times between SAC and LAX and extend them to San Diego, it would be a pretty good schedule IMO.

The Coast Daylight (CD) would indeed be a day train (the name is a clue), but would go to San Francisco, providing direct access (or close to downtown access) to the SF market. It would be offset a few hours in the schedule from the Starlight, would have less padding in the schedule than the LD train, and would be more reliable for the southbound trips. The primary purpose of the CD would be to provide LA and SF area access to the stops along the route, not just serve the LA to SF endpoint markets. An overnight train provides lousy hours for the coastal stops in-between. It will be a state supported train and you might notice the lack of overnight state supported trains with or w/o sleeper service.

 

[afigg]

One of the more recent (2014, maybe 2015) planning reports for the Coast Daylight projected a second, overnight train being added at some point after the initial, daytime train begins. You could probably dig up one of the threads here about the Coast Daylight proposals, or google it to see the proposals.

Of course, CAHSR looms over all these plans. Although a market would likely remain for service to the intermediate Coast Line stations, I'm not sure a market would remain for overnight service.

The Daylight recent EIS does project a second daily service as an overnight train several decades from now. Given how long CA has been studying and talking about restoring the Daylight corridor train, getting the daytime train running in the next 5-6 years would be an achievement.
Even if CA were to somehow fund and start an overnight SF to LA train along the route before CA HSR starts LA to SF service, the sub 3 hour HSR train would kill off the overnight train rather quickly. The Daylight corridor would become a feeder connector from the coastal communities to the HSR system. Which means daytime service to the communities between LA and San Jose.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The Coast Daylight (CD) would indeed be a day train (the name is a clue), but would go to San Francisco, providing direct access (or close to downtown access) to the SF market. It would be offset a few hours in the schedule from the Starlight, would have less padding in the schedule than the LD train, and would be more reliable for the southbound trips. The primary purpose of the CD would be to provide LA and SF area access to the stops along the route, not just serve the LA to SF endpoint markets. An overnight train provides lousy hours for the coastal stops in-between. It will be a state supported train and you might notice the lack of overnight state supported trains with or w/o sleeper service.

It would be interesting to have intercity train service to/from San Francisco. Would they connect from San Fran to San Jose or some other way? Why hasn't the Capitols service served the city?

 

[CCC1007]

They would likely operate over Caltrain tracks, which are busy, and that would require a reverse move if the current trains were to be used from the Capitol Corridor.

 

[Eric S]

Pretty sure we've gone over this before, but why would anyone propose routing the Capitols to San Francisco after arriving in San Jose? Look at a map to see how bizarre a routing that would be.

One complication for any Coast Daylight (or similar service) running between San Jose and San Francisco may be the Caltrain plan to adopt high-level equipment and platforms. Might be that *if* the Coast Daylight actually enters service that its Bay Area terminus is either San Jose or Oakland rather than San Francisco.

 

[fairviewroad]

One complication for any Coast Daylight (or similar service) running between San Jose and San Francisco may be the Caltrain plan to adopt high-level equipment and platforms. Might be that *if* the Coast Daylight actually enters service that it's Bay Area terminus is either San Jose or Oakland rather than San Francisco.

Or Emeryville. Or for that matter, Sacramento.

Really, if you have a well-timed Caltrain connection in San Jose, there's no need for Amtrak to run up the peninsula. Amtrak could even offer the San Jose-SF segment as a Thruway ticket, like they do with ACE trains or NJT trains.

 

[west point]

Since SAN - San Francisco has no maintenance except LAX maybe it would be better to run the train to Oakland. If a day train add San Francisco cars to the rear of train. At San Jose remove the SFO cars and place them on the next Caltrain so Caltrain wound not be delayed if northbound late.

Southbound place SAN cars on rear of Scheduled Caltrain and place them on rear of OAK - SAN train. When at SAN SFO cars ould be on front to rotate to OAK.

Of course if a night train then rotate the cars the same way.

Would Amtrak even need a conductor SFO - SJC ?

 

[jis]

Caltrain trains are push pull. They cannot easily have a bunch of random cars hooked onto them to go to San Fran. Almost guaranteed that this will never happen. If there is any service from the South to San Fran, it will be as a separate Amtrak California push pull train (since there is nowhere to turn anything at San Fran anymore) and not as part of any Caltrain train.

 

[west point]

Since Caltrain pushes into San Fran why not couple any SAN cars south of the loco ?

 

[Palmetto]

Then the Amtrak equipment becomes orphaned in San Fran, so to speak. There' s no maintenance base for Amtrak there. Going to Oakland is a better operation, for that reason, but only for that reason. If a piece of equipment has to be taken out of service, it would be much better to do that at the Oakland terminus, don't you think?