"limited", what does it mean?

[amtrakmichigan]

The term Limited in a train name dates back many years on passenger trains. But I have always wondered if the word Limited actualy described a service or feature of the train. For an example "limited" number of station stops, or "limited" service like no sleepers or diners. Wondering if any of you ever read somewhere where this term originated.

 

[AlanB]

To the best of my knowledge, although Bill Haithcoat or someone else may correct me, "Limited" refered to a limited number of stops and therefore a train that covered it's run in less time than a local train making all stops did.

 

[jccollins]

Interesting question amtrakmichigan! I had always thought of it as "limited" service since we have the Sunset Limited only running three days a week instead of daily like most routes, but I'll be interested to hear what the others say.

 

[PennsyFan]

Limited always meant a limited number of stops, and usually accomodations. The Sunset Limited used to be the fast train on the SP Sunset Route, the slow train being, I believe, the Argonaut. The 20th Century and Broadway Limiteds were the fastest trains on the NYC and PRR respectively. "Limited" is lso a generic term for any fast train. For example, even though the UP "City of Los Angeles did not have "limited" in its name, it would still be perfectly appropriate to call it a limited.

In New York City to this day there are "limited" buses on certain major north-south avenues which make fewer stops. It is, I believe, the same usage.

 

[Steve4031]

Many famous trains had Limited in their name. 20th century Limited, Broadway Limited, Panama Limited, etc. If possible, check out some of the offical railway guides from the 1950's. If I recall correctly, the 20th century Limited's stops after leaving Croton Harmon may have been Buffalo, collinwood, (engine change point near Cleveland), Toledo, and Chicago. In any event, there were a lot fewer stops than on todays Lake Shore Limited.

 

[AlanB]

In New York City to this day there are "limited" buses on certain major north-south avenues which make fewer stops. It is, I believe, the same usage.

That is correct, there are still several buses that do that during rush hours here in NYC.

 

[Allen Dee]

The term "Limited" in both the bus and rail industries means limited stops, fewer stops than a local.

The terms "Special" and "Express" have the same meaning.

In the airline industry, the term "Non-stop" is widely used to denote faster service. Nowadays you will occasionally see the term used in the bus industry. The only Amtrak train that runs with no intermediate passenger stops is the Auto Train, although it does make one stop for crew change and service. There may be commuter rail services that operate from origin to destination with no intermediate stops.

 

[battalion51]

Got one more for that list, the Annual Safety Patrol Specials from West Palm Beach to Washington. Again, crew changes, but no passenger stops.

 

[Dental Wiz]

From my understanding, the word Limited also initially refered to the number of passengers that could be accomodated per train. The consists were usually fixed in what cars were carried and of what type. There was a specified limited fixed amount of passengers that could be handled per trip. This in turn made these trains quite exclusive. They were usually extra fare and were marketed to the elite. When demand was high multiple sections of the train were operated. Still all were limited to the same number of passengers. This worked well early on when power for the trains was also quite limited as to what it could actually pull over the road.

As technology improved locomotive and passenger car design, consists grew. The use of extra sections declined. By WWII, railroads were adding cars to consists of all trains to meet the huge demand including the "Limiteds". After the war the idea of a fixed consist was pretty much passe. Both the 20th Century and the Broadway were flexible consists in their last incarnations.

Stephen D. Lipman, D.M.D.

 

[Dental Wiz]

Thus to sum up what I just wrote. The word "Limited" usually meant "Exclusive".

This obviously was a great marketing ploy to the wealthy. The word "Express" usually meant limited stops. As noted, almost all "Limteds" were expresses.

Stephen D. Lipman,D.M.D.

 

[jccollins]

Wow, quite an education for me! I knew this topic would turn out interesting. Now the only thing interesting is why the Sunset holds the exclusive "Limited" title... <_<

 

[tp49]

Probably for its "Limited" on-time performance B)

 

[Guest]

Now the only thing interesting is why the Sunset holds the exclusive "Limited" title...   <_<

Hello, the Lakeshore Limited called, it wants it's title back for it's nightly runns between Chicago and NYP.

 

[Superliner Diner]

Well in the case of the CAPITOL LIMITED, it refers to Amtrak's financial situation, which is Limited Capital. :lol:

 

[Amtrak OBS Employee]

Now the only thing interesting is why the Sunset holds the exclusive "Limited" title...   <_<

Hello, the Lakeshore Limited called, it wants it's title back for it's nightly runns between Chicago and NYP.

You mean "The LATE Shore Limited" don't ya? It competes quite well with the "Sunset" aka "The Sunrise Limited" especially during the winter months. :lol:

 

[AlanB]

Now the only thing interesting is why the Sunset holds the exclusive "Limited" title...   <_<

Hello, the Lakeshore Limited called, it wants it's title back for it's nightly runns between Chicago and NYP.

You mean "The LATE Shore Limited" don't ya? It competes quite well with the "Sunset" aka "The Sunrise Limited" especially during the winter months. :lol:

Well in all fairness to the Lake Shore, it's never as late as the Sunset averages. Additionally keeping the train on time in sub-zero weather or through Buffalo's 2 foot snow storms is a bit more challenging than what the Sunset faces.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I am a little late getting into this discussion but I concur with the points which were made, it did originally mean limited stops, faster, better or more exclusive service. It was definately a compliment, not a word to indicate "dimished" service or quality.

The Sunset limited was, indeed, the better of the two trains which used to be on that route, the other being the Arognaut, as stated. Same for the Capitol Liimted.

CAUTION, however. The naming of trains is not an exact science. (Even the naming of railroads was not an exact science, but that is better saved for another topic).

I noticed the word somehow got phased out a little bit-----on SOME railroads-----------after streamlining came along. In later years, (and certainly just before Amtrak), it sometimes did not have as much of the original meaning.

In some cases a brand new train was put in service, not called "limited". That would leave the old heavyweight trains called "limited" still standing, so in the 50's,60's and early 70's it did not ALWAYS have as exclusive of a meaning as it often did in the 30's and 40's.

For example, when the "Crescent Limited"(a 1926 built train) was streamlined in 1949 the word limited was dropped from it. Yet the Piedmont Limited (not to be confused with TODAY's Piedmont) , a heavy weight on the same route, remained in service. In that case, the Crescent (no longer called "limited") was superior to the Piedmont Limited. So it can get a little complicated.

But I still concur with the above writers that the word originally meant exclusive and superior service.

The word "express" certainly conveys a definate meaning but even that got obscured at times. For example on the Crescent route , say the WAS to ATl portion of it, in the 50's, there were six trains a day. A train called the "Washington, Atlanta and New Orleans Express" was the FIFTH SLOWEST of the SIX trains on that route (and didn't go to New Orleans, at least not in my day!!!) So, names can be get a little mis-leading and mis-applied .

Keep in mind that railroads were free to call their trains whatever they pleased, there not being a coordinated , consistent national system such as we have today under Amtrak. They could call anything anything, and some long distance trains did not even have names. They all had numbers of course.

 

[Dental Wiz]

Thanks for adding to the discussion Bill. There is no question that the meaning of "Limited" and "Express" and their use changed drasitically over time. It is still important to realize why railroads originally chose those terms to describe the attributes of their select trains.

Amtrak's use of the terms today probably has the least signifigance to the original intent of any era in rail passenger travel. The terms are used today to conjure up a time of days gone by. They're used more from a historical perspective since on most routes the "Limited" is the only offering to the traveling public. Although most onboard service aboard Amtrak trains is quite good, the actual name of the train has little to do with the make up of the train, the number of stops or the services offered. The obvious exception to this is the Acela Express. This train was branded using the rules of days gone by to make it an exclusive conveyance to business travelers willing to pay a premium.

Amtrak has been quite successful in this regard. Despite the initial teething pains of the fleet, they have become a favorite of the traveling public in the Northeast Corridor. Amtrak's market share has been growing by leaps and bounds since the introduction of the fleet.

Stephen D. Lipman, D. M. D.

 

[Dental Wiz]

It is always important to never forget our history as we look to the future.

 

[Dental Wiz]

That's right guys, I finally registered!

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Thanks for registering, Dental Wiz.

You and I are on exactly the same "track", so to speak. Those words did indeed have their original connotations, even though it all got kind of scrambled as time went on and operating conditions changed.

I find there are very few hard and fast statements that can be made in the world of passenger trains; there are exceptions to almost everything.

For example, in the case I cited above, the "Washington, Atlanta and New Orleans Express", it may well have been a "real" express some years before my time and probably did really go all the way to New Orleans. But things changed, while the name did not, very likely.

I'm glad you pointed about about Acela Express, that realy does have some meaning, even today!!