Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

[sporksradiant]

You don't think that is 32"? You might be right of course. Here's what Brightline's accessible aisle looks like:

32" is often not wide enough for power chairs. Yes it's the minimum allowable, but you'll either be scraping the sides or getting stuck, particularly in a wider footprint chair. You end up doing things like taking arms off often.

32" is the ada standard for doors, but here I'd think the standard for walkways would apply, not doors. Walkways is 36" - and that 4 inches really really makes a difference. It is allowed to reduce to 32" at points, but for no more than 24". It also requires passing areas, which I don't see built into the Amtrak designs for the most part.

I'm inclined to think that Amtrak may do the accessibility right - they stand to gain a large amount of customers by doing so. Everyone has heard the horror stories of planes destroying wheelchairs {and they aren't cheap} and is looking for a good alternative.

 

[Jacob Adams]

For whatever it is worth, the following is the comments I submitted just now regarding Amtrak's proposal to meet ADA requirements. Please feel free to modify for your own comments

"Thank you for proposing this alternative to meeting ADA requirements in new inter-city passenger rail long-distance equipment

I write as a person with chronic heart failure and a frequent long-distance Amtrak traveler between Rochester NY and Chicago, IL. I think the idea of a semi-permanently coupled train set with ADA accesslbe accommodations (coach seats and sleepers) close to community services cars (lounge/cafes and diners)--Amtrak’s accessible core trainset design--meets the spirit of the ADA, while allowing for expansion of trainsets to meet demand. Indeed while having accessible equipment is important, equally important is having the train service in the first place. Therefore train sets must have the flexibility to be modifed/changed to meet route demand which likely will grow as communities become more aware of routes, especially new ones and obviously increase around holidays and school vacations.

Indeed, It is critical that the U.S. increase access to frequent and reliable intercity rail service. Having accessible trainsets does a passengers with disabilities very little good if that train only stops once per day in the middle of the night, or if a room on a sleeper car costs upwards of three thousand dollars during the peak travel season. It does that passengers with disabilities no good if there is no service to their city at all.

I do have two minor critiques I do have as a train rider, which may or may not be approriate at this time, is based on the preliminary designs of the bi-level and single level train sets presented by Amtrak at the public meeting on August 30th, 2023. First, the lounge/cafe car capacity in both designs appears to be less than one car length long, which is less than pre-Covid pandemic capacity on most long distance (LD) trains. One of the pleasures of LD trains, a needed relief, and advantage over plane and car travel, is the possibility of leaving your seat to go to a communal area to meet fellow travelers, just have a change of scenery and/or sit in a car with better viewing possibilites to watch the passing scenerey. Second as a train fan, I hope that any trainset will have the ability to attach to historic train cars-- pre-Amtrak and Amtrak equipment. Private Varnish is potentially an important lucerative business for Amtrak if managed correctly."

Thank you for considering my comments.

 

[jis]

If they only use accessible coaches on those trains it seems feasible. For example:
Train 1: Other sleepers - Accessible sleeper - accessible cafe - accessible coach
Train 2: Accessible coach - accessible diner - accessible sleeper - other sleepers
would combine at the coaches and still maintain an accessible core.

That is exactly what I was thinking as a possibility.

For whatever it is worth, the following is the comments I submitted just now regarding Amtrak's proposal to meet ADA requirements. Please feel free to modify for your own comments

"Thank you for proposing this alternative to meeting ADA requirements in new inter-city passenger rail long-distance equipment

I write as a person with chronic heart failure and a frequent long-distance Amtrak traveler between Rochester NY and Chicago, IL. I think the idea of a semi-permanently coupled train set with ADA accesslbe accommodations (coach seats and sleepers) close to community services cars (lounge/cafes and diners)--Amtrak’s accessible core trainset design--meets the spirit of the ADA, while allowing for expansion of trainsets to meet demand. Indeed while having accessible equipment is important, equally important is having the train service in the first place. Therefore train sets must have the flexibility to be modifed/changed to meet route demand which likely will grow as communities become more aware of routes, especially new ones and obviously increase around holidays and school vacations.

Indeed, It is critical that the U.S. increase access to frequent and reliable intercity rail service. Having accessible trainsets does a passengers with disabilities very little good if that train only stops once per day in the middle of the night, or if a room on a sleeper car costs upwards of three thousand dollars during the peak travel season. It does that passengers with disabilities no good if there is no service to their city at all.

I do have two minor critiques I do have as a train rider, which may or may not be approriate at this time, is based on the preliminary designs of the bi-level and single level train sets presented by Amtrak at the public meeting on August 30th, 2023. First, the lounge/cafe car capacity in both designs appears to be less than one car length long, which is less than pre-Covid pandemic capacity on most long distance (LD) trains. One of the pleasures of LD trains, a needed relief, and advantage over plane and car travel, is the possibility of leaving your seat to go to a communal area to meet fellow travelers, just have a change of scenery and/or sit in a car with better viewing possibilites to watch the passing scenerey. Second as a train fan, I hope that any trainset will have the ability to attach to historic train cars-- pre-Amtrak and Amtrak equipment. Private Varnish is potentially an important lucerative business for Amtrak if managed correctly."

Thank you for considering my comments.

I would encourage you to submit your comment in its entirety to Amtrak - Have Your Say. Those submissions will be read by the design team and handled with due seriousness.

 

[TheMalahat]

Is this being framed as a single level design or a bilevel design, or potentially both? Have a hard time seeing Via go bilevel, but really don't have any substantive reason for that. I have no idea about Churchill service but everything else there's sleepers on can do bilevel, I think??

 

[jis]

Is this being framed as a single level design or a bilevrl design, or potentially both? Have a hard time seeing Via go bilevel, but really don't have any substantive reason for that. I have no idea about Churchill service but everything else there's sleepers on can do bilevel, I think??

This Amtrak and FRA, and American ADA. Canada is an entirely different ball game I'd imagine.

 

[TheMalahat]

This Amtrak and FRA, and American ADA. Canada is an entirely different ball game I'd imagine.

Yes. But Via is looking to essentially piggy back here. And the requirements, broadly, aren't that different for accessibility.

Pour votre confort et votre sécurité, veuillez vous assurer que tout est inclus dans les deux langues officielles. (I don't speak French, this might be wrong lol)

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Yes. But Via is looking to essentially piggy back here. And the requirements, broadly, aren't that different for accessibility.

Pour votre confort et votre sécurité, veuillez vous assurer que tout est inclus dans les deux langues officielles. (I don't speak French, this might be wrong lol)

Per an online translator: "For your comfort and safety, please ensure that everything is included in both official languages"

 

[PVD]

You can have 2 fleets, bi level and single level, or one fleet of single level You cannot have just one fleet of bi level as long as the Silvers, the Crescent, the Lake Shore, and a NYP originating Cardinal exist.

 

[Mailliw]

Unless the elevators can be used while the train is moving the accessible areas have to be on the upper level so wheelchair users can freely move between cars.

 

[Septa9739]

I think the schematics were a good step forward. The only things I referred to public comment were that the lounge be next to the cafe rather than on the other side of the dinner that way people who want to enjoy their cafe/bar fare in the lounge don’t have to walk all through the dinner, which will cause all sort of congestion and possibly limit access. The other point was to have more than the required ADA seats in the core so that non-ADA coaches and sleepers could be added ad-hoc.

 

[Jacob Adams]

I would encourage you to submit your comment in its entirety to Amtrak - Have Your Say. Those submissions will be read by the design team and handled with due seriousness.

Sorry, I was not clear. I submitted the posted comments to Amtrak and then to this listserve. Thanks for encouraging me to submit them to Amtrak though.

 

[TheMalahat]

You can have 2 fleets, bi level and single level, or one fleet of single level You cannot have just one fleet of bi level as long as the Silvers, the Crescent, the Lake Shore, and a NYP originating Cardinal exist.

I suppose to clarify my question, is Amtrak looking to replace all the LD equipment, or just the SuperLiners?

Conversely, even if it's only one subfleet, are they looking to only go with one fleet type or could we conceivably see both dual and single level?

I had been Googling around a bit since I last posted, and it seems like maybe the answer is "to be determined!"

 

[PVD]

As far as I remember, it is all LD. How and with what is what is being hashed out. ADA compliance is a huge factor in how this is done, and the ability to accomplish this with a core set rather than across the entire fleet is a major departure from current methodology. So, whether it is all single level, or single and bilevel is tbd, but all bi-level is not happening.

 

[Cal]

I think the schematics were a good step forward. The only things I referred to public comment were that the lounge be next to the cafe rather than on the other side of the dinner that way people who want to enjoy their cafe/bar fare in the lounge don’t have to walk all through the dinner, which will cause all sort of congestion and possibly limit access. The other point was to have more than the required ADA seats in the core so that non-ADA coaches and sleepers could be added ad-hoc.

I agree. I hope these renderings don't suggest that Amtrak wants to make the lounge sleeper-only.

Out of everything, this is extremely minor. However, it is a shame that if a design like this goes through, there won't be lounge seats on either side. That does suck for routes with excellent scenery on both sides of the train.

 

[Ziv]

Per an online translator: "For your comfort and safety, please ensure that everything is included in both official languages"

The obligatory, "And now, in French, if you please!" from Canadian Bacon.

 

[PVD]

I agree. I hope these renderings don't suggest that Amtrak wants to make the lounge sleeper-only.

Out of everything, this is extremely minor. However, it is a shame that if a design like this goes through, there won't be lounge seats on either side. That does suck for routes with excellent scenery on both sides of the train.

The are concept drawings, not final details, swivel seats are certainly a possibility.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The are concept drawings, not final details, swivel seats are certainly a possibility.

No, swivel seats are not going to happen. The current ones were supposed to be lock in a fix position after the NTSB noted they caused an increase of injuries during a derailment.

 

[Cal]

The are concept drawings, not final details, swivel seats are certainly a possibility.

No, swivel seats are not going to happen. The current ones were supposed to be lock in a fix position after the NTSB noted they caused an increase of injuries during a derailment.

Even in a world where swivel seats are an option, having thirty two inches (presumably with people passing fairly frequently) between you and the window isn't ideal.

There are, however, other cars in the concept with an accessible aisle in the middle, which I hope is used for any lounge cars.

 

[PVD]

Sorry when I said swivel, I meant the ability to lock in the rotated direction, not freely. But again, these are only concepts, to validate the concept of an ADA core.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Sorry when I said swivel, I meant the ability to lock in the rotated direction, not freely. But again, these are only concepts, to validate the concept of an ADA core.

Actually the original SL-2 had rotating seat that would lock in various positions. That mechanism broke very easily so they became swivel seat. Which Amtrak try to lock in place with a bolt that was easily removed so they became swivel seats again, with out any ability to locking in place.

 

[TransitTyrant]

No, swivel seats are not going to happen. The current ones were supposed to be lock in a fix position after the NTSB noted they caused an increase of injuries during a derailment.

Defund the NTSB.

 

[jis]

Actually the original SL-2 had rotating seat that would lock in various positions. That mechanism broke very easily so they became swivel seat. Which Amtrak try to lock in place with a bolt that was easily removed so they became swivel seats again, with out any ability to locking in place.

In principle swivel seat with lock in any position meets NTSB’s requirements, but American government owned passenger rail operators are totally risk averse based on some extreme meaning of the term “risk” and are unlikely to be so innovative as to try such put when the simple lock in place permanently is available

 

[MARC Rider]

In principle swivel seat with lock in any position meets NTSB’s requirements, but American government owned passenger rail operators are totally risk averse based on some extreme meaning of the term “risk” and are unlikely to be so innovative as to try such put when the simple lock in place permanently is available

I didn't know that NTSB had any regulatory mandate. I thought they investigated crashes and made recommendations to re

 

[jis]

I didn't know that NTSB had any regulatory mandate. I thought they investigated crashes and made recommendations to re

It does not. But the reason that they gave for fixing seats did not say that they cannot be moved from one position to another and then locked in place. But the regulation that the FRA and the operators agreed on was everything totally fixed in a single position. Afterall this removes one more thing that otherwise would need to be maintained. It is all part of accepting the situation that they are unable to manage stuff, so the fix is to remove things that need to be managed.

 

[sportbiker]

I seem to remember the Pacific Parlor Car had swivel seats...