Merger of Frontier and Spirit Airlines

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MARC Rider said:
Any data on the percentage of customers who really fly with the "low fare" rather than end up paying more or less the same as the legacy fare after buying all the add-ons? I still think it's bait and switch. And it demonstrates that the "free market" does not produce the best outcomes, either for society or for the customer.
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I have no clue, and frankly it is irrelevant to the point I was making in my post, except to observe that their RASM is generally lower than those of the legacies. The legacies would not survive if their RASM was that low. Which overall means that passengers are paying net net less per seat than on the legacies. But part of that of course is the absence of extremely pricey upper classes too, so that does not unequivocally say that each individual passenger is paying a lower fare than one on a legacy.

Whatever it is, the model works quite effectively. It has for every successful LCC and ULCC, and in some countries these are the largest and most used airlines, irrespective of what the customer actually pays. This is even more so in the more price sensitive countries. Afterall it is analog of the structure of allocation of charges that makes the private auto look better than public transit and the entire country runs on it and the entire world strives towards it. What can I say? 🤷‍♂️
 
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We already know how these airlines make money as it is part of their public financial statements as Sprint and Frontier are both listed public corporations.

The OTA stats don’t show the whole picture. The merged company just combines two companies with a similar business model and allows them to share efficiencies and economy of scale.
 
Merging Frontier and Spirit is no different than other airline mergers as both of the airlines were already on the ULCC. Allegiant is also in that class and its unclear if it will merge with them as well. I don’t know the route overlap and so forth however. I could understand usage of smaller airports that has an exclusive with an ULCC to some degree like Trenton Mercer where Frontier has a small market and is the only carrier. But the full flights I saw were on routes that had well established carriers and that really surprises me since airline information and scheduling is open information and in these markets, Frontier and Spirit have fallen behind the competition in terms of schedule availability and frequency of flights on alternative routes if necessary via connections, customer service, and even prices paid and seat pitch. A no frills no baggage no carry on customer could theoretically get a cheaper price perhaps but the combined level of low seat pitch and everything else makes this a bad choice.

Give me a major airline like AA/Jetblue alliance, Delta, United or even Southwest if you are more budget oriented and you can connect to anywhere and have a much better overall experience.

I remember episodes on TV such as a lady missing a UK budget carrier flight and she is upset because she can’t make her flight to another closeby european nation. It was all their fault for depending on a budget airline and a low cost airport as the only way she would get there. At major airports you have loads of backup options with connections. Some carriers can even depending on the airline and situation book tickets with competitor airlines as well with no additional fees but this won’t happen with Spirit or Frontier. I have been on overbooked flights with legacy airlines and still got out since I wanted to get there but others and myself if I wanted to who got overbooked could have volunteered for the cash and seat upgrade on the next connection flight which has been offered or other incentives.
 
Exvalley said:
Most analysts do not expect that to happen. While the fleet is consistent, Allegiant's route map does not fit as well.

I've never flown Allegiant, but I admire their scrappiness.
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If Allegiant merges with Frontier/Spirit, then there is no longer competition in the ULCC market. If they then try to raise prices, it won't take much to pit them against the Mainline carriers. I suspect their current business model will remain.

I hope the Frontier fleet brings on Sprit's $50 upgrade first class seats.
 
VentureForth said:
If Allegiant merges with Frontier/Spirit, then there is no longer competition in the ULCC market. If they then try to raise prices, it won't take much to pit them against the Mainline carriers. I suspect their current business model will remain.

I hope the Frontier fleet brings on Sprit's $50 upgrade first class seats.
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If I recall, both airlines have upgraded seat options. I don’t know the differences in the seats and difference in price between them but it does seem likely they will unify with one standard as plane interiors get modified in the future but that process will take a long time to accomplish. I can see it now, a downgrade from the current seat pitch to a stand up only flight and the airline removing seats altogether after the merger. Spirit has in the past entertained the idea of seatless flights. They probably would have done it if FAA would have allowed it. Nothing good will come of a new interior with the combined carrier. The industry trend is to cut the size of economy seats and Frontier and Spirit both had some of the smallest seats in the industry already.

In the time period that the seat configurations remain different, I do expect unification of pricing standards after the merger.

I miss the pre merger days when you saw a lot more aircraft liveries at the airport.
 
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VentureForth said:
I hope the Frontier fleet brings on Sprit's $50 upgrade first class seats.
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I agree. I fear that with Frontier taking over they'll revert to Frontier's seating, but maybe we'll get lucky and Spirit's will stick around.

I think having the ULCCs is good, even if you never fly on them. The legacies would not be offering as cheap of flights as they do without the pressure of the ULCCs. I hope the deal is scrutinized and that, if approved, it'll aim to make the ULCC stronger and even more of a competitor instead of simply removing a competitor that drives down prices for everyone.
 
This is me posting as an individual, taking my other hat off ...

I am left scratching my head trying to figure out how the Spirit/Frontier merger would be affected by the fact that ULCCs are not a pleasant way to travel (which BTW personally I do agree with) and while arguably many of them are incredibly successful businesses (which sometimes amazes me - but I guess I might have grown too elitist, what can I say?). What is the relevance of this side to and fro?

The more relevant issues would be:

1. Do the shareholders/owners come out ahead net net.

2. Can they convince the relevant regulators that they will not cause harm to competition.

3. Will they be able to keep their current customers and grow the customer base. Remember that just because you and I don't like them does not imply anything at all in this regard.

I suppose speculating on which parts of current practices of the individual airlines the the merged airline will adopt is a worthwhile exercise.

The majority owners projected for the merged airline will apparently be the Frontier side. Here is a brief description of the business terms:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/07/fro...t-airline-in-us.html?__source=androidappshare
The thing that caught my attention is:

The companies didn’t announce the new name of the combined carrier, the CEO or location of the airline’s headquarters. Those questions will be answered by a committee led by Franke after the transaction closes, which is expected in the second half of the year, pending regulatory and shareholder approval. Labor unions were informed early Monday, the airlines said. Pilots at Frontier and Spirit are represented by the same union, as are the two airlines’ flight attendants.
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which suggests that Bill Franke of Frontier is in the driver's seat on this.

The other thing that should be of concern, and has to do partly with the competitive landscape post merger, is what effect this merger will have on the airline industry. There is a good discussion and sharing of opinions on this subject taking place in airliners.net at:

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1470173
And finally there is an endless space to speculate about what their consolidated route structure will be and what their hubs will be, even though they are not really a hub-n-spoke operation per se.
 
AmtrakBlue said:
My recent experience on Spirit was excellent. They, unlike the legacy carriers, as far as I can tell, are still blocking off middle seats. At least for my two flights. And the flight attendant on one of my flights came to me to acknowledge she knew I may need assistance for my disability. She even asked if I wanted her to lower her mask so I could read her lips. That has been hit or miss on even the legacy carriers over the years for me.
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Spirit isn't blocking middle seats - I flew on them a few weeks ago and they definitely had middle seats booked up. That said, I thought they handled the delay I had better than American or JetBlue - I had a two hour delay on Spirit and we were quickly informed of the delay (including how long it was) and we were proactively offered $50 vouchers for a future flight. JetBlue had a 3-hour rolling delay, and given how quickly they were boarding other planes (and wound up boarding ours) I did not feel comfortable leaving the general gate area beyond very quick bathroom breaks - even walking a few gates down for 10-15 minutes seemed too risky. No compensation was offered, even after filing a complaint online. On AA we boarded and then there was a two-hour mechanical delay on-board (in seats not a whole lot more comfortable than Spirit!) and we missed our connection, and they wouldn't rebook us on another airline and no compensation was offered there either, despite getting home 7 hours later than scheduled and having additional connections - we weren't even given a meal voucher!

Which brings me to this:

jis said:
3. Will they be able to keep their current customers and grow the customer base. Remember that just because you and I don't like them does not imply anything at all in this regard.
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I think they'll do a fine job keeping their customer base. Having additional frequencies that are easily able to be rebooked on will also help when there are cancellations, and given that most legacy airlines seem to care even less about most of their customers than the ULCCs, I think just as many people, if not more, will be pushed away from the legacies and willing to try ULCCs (since it's "can't be any worse" than their last American or United flight) as those pushed away from the ULCCs into full-service carriers. The ULCCs also have a huge advantage lately by focusing on leisure travel - that's picking up much faster than business travel, and leisure travelers are far more price-sensitive and somewhat less "comfort/frills"-sensitive, particularly in terms of premium cabins or nicer seats. I think that'll bode well for the merged carrier and, assuming the merger gets approved, unless they massively screw things up they have a long runway for growth available to them.
 
VentureForth said:
Like any merger, they will take bits from both companies. American merged its livery with UScair abandoning its trademark polished aluminum fuselage and lost recognition of having a mostly Boeing fleet when acquiring USAir's Airbus fleet.
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AA had already had an order for 260 A319s/A321s on the books at the time that American And USAirways agreed to merge. A pretty significant portion of the planned fleet - most of which was designed to replace American's aging MD80 fleet.

As to the paint scheme (or lack thereof), the bare metal aluminum skin had (with the exception of A300s and acquired jets (which eventually had paint removed)) always been part of AA's scheme. The AA Massimo Vignelli scheme that we all recognize was introduced in 1968 was the scheme for 45 years until AA announced a refresh in 2013 - before the merger with US was announced.
 
MODERATOR'S NOTE: In the interest of retaining most of the posts on various subjects posted in this thread originally we have reorganized the threads a bit as follows:

1, All posts with greatest affinity to the Merger topic have been retained in this thread.

2. Posts with greatest affinity to the experience of flying LCC, ULCC and Charter including the argument about whether there are more incidents on ULCCs or not have been given their own thread:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/flying-lcc-ulcc-and-charter.81145/
3. All posts with greatest affinity to the Middle Seat discussion that had been removed as off topic have been restored in its own thread:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/the-middle-seat-discussion.81144/
So now only a few remaining posts that were removed for reasons other than off topic remain removed. Everything else has been restored in its proper place.

Hope this satisfies more people than it upsets.

All the best.
 

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