NCDOT refurbish and rebuild pictures

[SCrails]

This link was posted on the Yahoo group Carolina Passenger Trains:

http://www.bytrain.org/quicklinks/pdf/refurb_rebuild.pdf

I think it's especially interesting in light of threads in this forum about refurbishing old equipment (à la VIA) versus buying new. Lots of good photos of cars that I've unfortunately not yet gotten to ride. But Charlotte, NC, is only 1.5 hours' drive from here, and I guess I just have to buy a ticket, drive up there, and take a ride.

Oh - here's a teachable moment: what's "cant deficiency", in non-technical terms? I've read definitions but the mathematical formulas lost me.

 

[PetalumaLoco]

This link was posted on the Yahoo group Carolina Passenger Trains:
http://www.bytrain.org/quicklinks/pdf/refurb_rebuild.pdf

I think it's especially interesting in light of threads in this forum about refurbishing old equipment (à la VIA) versus buying new. Lots of good photos of cars that I've unfortunately not yet gotten to ride. But Charlotte, NC, is only 1.5 hours' drive from here, and I guess I just have to buy a ticket, drive up there, and take a ride.

Oh - here's a teachable moment: what's "cant deficiency", in non-technical terms? I've read definitions but the mathematical formulas lost me.

Did you see this explanation?

Math formulas lose me too, too many numbers'n stuff...

 

[railiner]

Those 66 passenger coaches that were built for the Kansas City Southern have a historical footnote......they were the very last mainline (non-commuter) railcars built for American railroads until the original DOT funded Metroliners were delivered to the Penn Central.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

Thanks for sharing that link, I met the Piedmont Twice while riding the Carolinian it was neat to see the inside of the cars.

 

[George Harris]

Try this:

Cant deficiency is the Britishism ofr Unbalanced superelevation.

Know how when you ride a bicycle you lean to the insode on curve, or else the bike will fall over?

On a road when it is "banked" so that the outside of the road on a curve is higher than the inside of the road, it does the same thing to the ground that you do with your bicycle going around the curve.

If you go around the curve on a bicycle as a speed that makes the bicycle and the road surface into a perfect upside down "T", then you are at the balance speed for the banking of the road.

In a track this same thing is accomplished by raising the outside rail. Since the proper level of the track is checked with a level board, to make sure that the rignt amount of raise is put in the curve, the distance up from the low rail is measured.

This vertical distance is the superelevation, or "cant" in British English.

If the train is going at a speed higher than the speed that would make the perfect balance on the curve, the difference between the raise in the outside rail that is actually there and the amount of raise it would require to make the perfect balance is Unbalanced Superelevation in American or Cant Deficiency in British.

 

[DET63]

Do you watch NASCAR? Think of the banking at Daytona and you sort of get an idea of superelevation.

 

[SCrails]

I understand the general idea of cant as the banking of track in a curve, but I still don't understand "cant deficiency" as a rail vehicle specification. In the NCDOT document they describe each of the vehicles as "capable of operating up to XXXmph and N.M" of cant deficiency". Is this telling me that a given vehicle moving at e.g. 110 mph needs 7.5" of superelevation to be perfectly balanced, i.e. center of gravity perpendicular to the track?

PetalumaLoco's link helped some, but I am still missing something. What does this spec tell me about the vehicle in practical terms?

 

[Chris J.]

I understand the general idea of cant as the banking of track in a curve, but I still don't understand "cant deficiency" as a rail vehicle specification. In the NCDOT document they describe each of the vehicles as "capable of operating up to XXXmph and N.M" of cant deficiency". Is this telling me that a given vehicle moving at e.g. 110 mph needs 7.5" of superelevation to be perfectly balanced, i.e. center of gravity perpendicular to the track?
PetalumaLoco's link helped some, but I am still missing something. What does this spec tell me about the vehicle in practical terms?

AIUI; the faster you want to go around a curve; the more superelevation that's required. The cant deficiency is the difference between the actual superelevation of the track and what would be required to run at the speed you want to go at. Say a the track should be superelevated to 12" to take it at 80mph but is in only superelevated to 6" (maybe the other trains on it travel much slower) then there there is a 6" cant deficiency.

So if the vehicle is specified as able to operate up to 80mph with a 6" cant deficiency it could take that curve; because the superelvation only 6" out, which is within the limits; but i the car was specified with a 3" can't deficiency it couldn't take it at 80; but would need to slow down to whatever speed required 9" of superelevation, say 60.

So if I've understood it all right: the greater cant deficiency the car can take; the faster you can run it around curves.

 

[VT Hokie]

Of course, since the locomotives are limited to 4" of cant deficiency, the coaches will not come close to their limits. In practice, I'm guessing they operate at 3" of cant deficiency or less.

 

[George Harris]

It requires special permission from the FRA to go beyond 3 inches "cant deficiency", but they appear willing to give it for equipment that can perform well on it.

There is a certain amount of carbody lean toward the outside on a curve when going faster than the balancing speed, so if the lean is high the cant deificency should be low. Another facttor is the that the wheel flange will climb the rail if the cant deficiency is too high. One more factor is that the rail may roll over to the outside if the cant deficiency is too high and the ties worn under the tie plate. Since an engine produces more lateral force on the rail, it is normal that the safety limit for the engine will be less than that for the cars.

The 110 mph limit for the coaches means that there may be problems with the suspension at higher speeds that would lead to high vibrations or other problems. The 103 mph limit on the engines is probably limited by gearing of the traction motors.

 

[VT Hokie]

The good news is that the $520 million awarded to North Carolina will apparently lead to an increase from 79 to 90 mph, among other improvements!

 

[battalion51]

The biggest improvement I see initially is that this will create an atmosphere that will make it feasible for them to install PTC, and probably be one of the first places to get the system up and running. It'll be interesting to see how they accomplish the interface with both Amtrak and NS motors that use the line.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Those 66 passenger coaches that were built for the Kansas City Southern have a historical footnote......they were the very last mainline (non-commuter) railcars built for American railroads until the original DOT funded Metroliners were delivered to the Penn Central.

When people (like myself) point out how some railroads in the pre-Amtrak past tried harder than others to retain the passenger, we sometimes forget the Kansas City Southern.

We typically remember some of the trains of the Santa Fe, the Union Pacific, the Illinois Central.etc. KCS was a relatively small but spunky line which tried aggresively to maintain decent service between Kansas City and New Orleans and Gulf Coast points.

Being the last long distance line to buy new equipment obviously helps to back up my point.

 

[AmtrakPDX]

I understand the general idea of cant as the banking of track in a curve, but I still don't understand "cant deficiency" as a rail vehicle specification. In the NCDOT document they describe each of the vehicles as "capable of operating up to XXXmph and N.M" of cant deficiency". Is this telling me that a given vehicle moving at e.g. 110 mph needs 7.5" of superelevation to be perfectly balanced, i.e. center of gravity perpendicular to the track?
PetalumaLoco's link helped some, but I am still missing something. What does this spec tell me about the vehicle in practical terms?

Do appreciate that you won't be able to create a strictly linear relation between superelevation and speed. The last factor that would be needed to complete your 'book of tables' would be the radius of the curve.

Fun discussion!

 

[jphjaxfl]

Those 66 passenger coaches that were built for the Kansas City Southern have a historical footnote......they were the very last mainline (non-commuter) railcars built for American railroads until the original DOT funded Metroliners were delivered to the Penn Central.

I rode those KCS coaches from Shreveport to New Orleans and Shreveport to Kansas City on The Southern Belle in September, 1969 not long before the trains were discontinued in November, 1969. The train was made up of 3 coaches and a tear drop observation lounge/dining car. The dining area was next to the door that connected to the coach. The lounge area was at the observation end. It was a great place to view the Ouachita and Ozark Mountains of Arkansas. Those coaches rode very well because they were newer than what most railroads were using at the time. I am glad to see that they are still in use.

 

[acelafan]

This link was posted on the Yahoo group Carolina Passenger Trains:
http://www.bytrain.org/quicklinks/pdf/refurb_rebuild.pdf

I think it's especially interesting in light of threads in this forum about refurbishing old equipment (à la VIA) versus buying new. Lots of good photos of cars that I've unfortunately not yet gotten to ride. But Charlotte, NC, is only 1.5 hours' drive from here, and I guess I just have to buy a ticket, drive up there, and take a ride.

Oh - here's a teachable moment: what's "cant deficiency", in non-technical terms? I've read definitions but the mathematical formulas lost me.

Wow, the before & after pics are impressive! Nice work on the refurbishments.

Thanks for posting the link.