New Studies Released

[AMTK 365]

Just found these on the Trainorders.com passenger board.

http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/PRIAA/NorthCoast...erviceStudy.pdf

http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/PRIAA/Pennsylvan...viceStudies.pdf

Except for the price tag of restoring the service (which I suppose should be somewhat expected), the N.C.H. looks like a very promising prospect...58% farebox recovery verses 51% nationally (and it trumps nearly every other train, save for the Auto Train, Builder and Palmetto).

 

[battalion51]

From what I've read it's all very interesting stuff. I definitely could see the potential benefit of adding a second frequency to Pittsburgh from New York. However, I wish they would consider and alternate corridor routing of DC-PHL-PGH. This is something that hasn't been done before, but gives additional flexibility for folks wanting to go to DC from Pittsburgh, or a new option for folks wanting to access DC for people in locations like Altoona or Harrisburg that don't currently have this service. It would also eliminate the need for an engine change since the train could potentially operate with a diesel for the entire trip. However it may be worth it to change at Philly anyway since you'd likely pick up time savings (assuming this frequency didn't have a baggage car).

However, regarding the NCH, I believe these funds could be MUCH better allocated to areas that would better use the money. We're talking about a potential $1 billion investment. Why not bring the Desert Wind? Or how about additional east coast service to cities like Atlanta? Or putting in service from JAX-ATL-CHI?

 

[DET63]

Or increasing the frequency of service on the SL? Or restoring SL service east of NOL?

From the PDF file linked in the OP:

Projected Performance (dollar figures in Millions)

Capital/Implementation Costs $1,043.2

Annual Passenger Revenue $43.0

Direct Costs $74.1

Direct Operating Contribution/Loss $31.1

Farebox Recovery 58.0%

Total Annual Ridership 359,800

Passenger Miles/Train Mile 153.1

That's an awful lot of money that could be used more productively on the Amtrak system.

My problem with it is that the service would largely parallel the EB service from Chicago to Seattle (and would there be through cars between SPK or PSC and PDX, as there are with the EB?). There is only one daily train service from the S.F. Bay Area to Chicago, and only one daily service between L.A. and Chicago. Why should Seattle get two (or 11/2, if the NCH is instead restored as a tri-weekly service) trains, despite being a much smaller metropolitan area?

I believe, in fact, this was the rationale for getting rid of the NCH in the first place.

 

[afigg]

Shouldn't this be split into 2 separate threads, one for the North Coast Hiawatha report and another for the Pennsylvania Feasibility Studies report? There is a lot to discuss about each report and they cover very different parts of the Amtrak system.

The PA report covers a mixed bag of topics, all mandated by Congress. Adding more Amtrak service to Cornwells Heights, PA and Princeton Junction - Amtrak's answer: no, it would cost them money. In the discussion on the operational impacts of stopping at those 2 stations because the lack of nearby crossovers, there is this statement: "Since 2007, Amtrak has been leading the development of a Northeast Corridor Master Plan. It is a collaborative effort between 12 states, 8 commuter operators and all of the region’s primary freight carriers. The initial release and study report is scheduled for this fall." The NEC Master plan study will draw a lot of comments when it is released, I'm sure.

The other parts of the PA report discuss in detail adding a daily train to Pittsburgh by extending a Keystone service train and a 3rd daily service to Altoona by extending another Keystone train, although the cost figures sound high to me.

 

[Amtrak839]

I would certainly not oppose restoring the NCH, but I think there are better ways to invest the money. Also, if the Pioneer returns, that would make 3 CHI-SEA routes, which seems excessive, when other routes have such poor service. As far as long distance service goes, I think these should be Amtrak's priorities right now:

1. Daily Sunset Limited LAX-ORL, with service to Phoenix restored

2. Daily Cardinal

3. Broadway Limited

4. Pioneer

5. Desert Wind

I put the Sunset at #1, because Amtrak has pretty much betrayed communities like Pensacola who shelled out money for new stations, only to receive mediocre service which was taken away after only 12 years. The Cardinal is also up there, because tri-weekly service can't work, and it is a waste of resources in its current state. The Broadway Limited is #3 because it is pathetic how far NY-CHI service has slipped from the days when the Century and Broadway had such a heated rivalry for the route that a mutual 16 hour schedule had to be negotiated for safety reasons (obviously that was before the FRA and the 79 mph limit on most lines). Another direct NYP-CHI route is needed, the LSL is not enough (I don't consider the Cardinal here, because no one except a railfan is going to take 28 hours to get from NYP-CHI). The Pioneer and Desert Wind are there because there is clearly demand for those services.

Some other long distance services that are not as urgent, but I think should certainly be looked at:

6. Silver Palm

7. direct CHI-FLA service

8. North Coast Hiawatha

9. National Limited, restoring direct link from the east to St. Louis and Kansas City

 

[cpamtfan]

Now, I was looking at the Cardinal's schedule recently and noticed, "hey, I don't think you need another set of equipment to run five days a week, so why not have the Cardinal run the extra days (possibly when the new stuff gets here, or even now)?". Then, a limited train of Superliners "possibly as low as one set, to run WAS to CHI mainly for sightseeing. Now thats just my thought on that matter.

Now battalion, yes it would be nice for a WAS-PGH train, but look at how the original Broadway WAS section failed: the route was just too long and unconventional for say a person going WAS-PGH. Plus, the connection from a Regional/Acela can't be that bad.

As for the NCH. I've heard that route is pretty senic, and Montana is pushing hard for train service(!) which is good. But are the cities it serves compared to a say, Desert Wind or Pioneer serves? I see Bismark, Helena, and a few others. The Desert Wind would serve Las Vegas, and probably just be a good way to get from LV to LA. The Pioneer would serve Boise, Portland, and others. Now although the Desert Wind would only serve LV, it would probably get some good LV-LA service, or from like Denver or SLC to there. The Desert Wind, though, will be a littleharder to bring back than a Pioneer or NCH. Why? Well they already have studys for the Pioneer and NCH, while the Desert Wind seems neutral. I'm not sure how the state of Nevada, UP, and others feel about brining back service along the line, but it is obvious that they are already behind.

Now the consist I see is pretty simple: P42-coach baggage-coach-diner lounge-sleeper; coach baggage will multi task as baggage car with the baggage room.

I've got a whole lot more to say but that will come later.

 

[battalion51]

It seems like a route like the Desert Wind or Pioneer would be more likely to get a Cross Country Cafe rather than a full diner and sightseer. Heck I think the Desert Wind only had a Sightseer back then, and that was before the CCC concept rolled out.

 

[Amtrak839]

If the Pioneer and Desert Wind both returned, they would run as part of the California Zephyr from Chicago. So with all of the trains together you'd be looking at a consist of:

P42 CHI-EMY

P42 CHI-EMY

P42 CHI-EMY

Baggage CHI-EMY

Trans-Dorm CHI-EMY

Sleeper CHI-EMY

Sleeper CHI-EMY

Diner CHI-EMY

Lounge CHI-EMY

Coach CHI-EMY

Coach CHI-EMY

Coach CHI-EMY

Coach CHI-LAX

Coach-Baggage CHI-LAX

CCC CHI-LAX

Sleeper CHI-LAX

Sleeper CHI-SEA

CCC CHI-SEA

Coach-Baggage CHI-SEA

Coach CHI-SEA

That would certainly be an impressive train. The first CCC could go unstaffed and just be a lounge area until the split, and the second CCC could be open for full service for its entire run to take some stress off the diner and sightseer.

 

[alanh]

1. Daily Sunset Limited LAX-ORL, with service to Phoenix restored

Unfortunately, the costs to bring the Phoenix West Line back up to snuff are going to be huge if Amtrak does it on its own. Although UP is using some of it for car storage, the ABS semaphores will have to be replaced and the track rehabbed to make 79mph. I suspect UP is hoping Amtrak will do it so it can use the line without paying for reactivating it.

UP is in the process of double-tracking the Sunset Line through Arizona, but so far just the grading is done. There are some sections east of Tucson that are already double-track (the old EP&SW line is the second track).