New York Penn Station v3.0

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jis

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With the Moynihan Train Hall in Service and the new 33rd St. entrance in place we have what could be called Penn Station V2.0.

Governor Cuomo talked about the Empire Station or some such with a bunch of enhancements. Governor Hochul has picked up from there and defined what she will be pushing for as a 4-5 year project, explicitly not waiting for Gateway to complete, which would lead to Penn Station V3.0, to be followed perhaps a decade later by Penn Station V4.0 with full PS South and all that. Here is an article about Governor Hochul's vision of V3.0....

 

jis

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How about just two nice, new tunnels?
That is already happening. Has an EIS and FONSI and ROD to throw some of their favorite acronyms out. It even has a funding plan in place and money about to roll in.

Penn Station V3 is in planning stages, and it is primarily a New York State project, with some NJT contribution for their corner of the station, unlike the tunnels, which is Fed + 50-50 between NJ and NY.

The reason that Penn Station expansion needs to be planned for is that the two new tunnels will not see full utilization until track capacity is increased in Penn Station. Still getting them in place sooner rather than later is important to get the full refurbishment of the original tunnels on track sooner rather than later.
 

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Two new tunnel bores and old ones completely rehabbed? with 4 main tracks from there to Newark means rush hour capacity will double the capacity number of trains during rush hour. ( 24 to 48 ? ). That many trains will not all fit into present Penn station. LIRR and the future MNRR service will not give up any track space.
With longer platforms at Penn south then NJT can operate longer trains that will mean even more possible passengers especially for express trains.
 

joelkfla

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With longer platforms at Penn south then NJT can operate longer trains that will mean even more possible passengers especially for express trains.
Not being familiar with NJT operations, I have questions:
  1. Is there passenger demand to fill longer trains?
  2. Are platforms on the NJT branches long enough; if not, who will fund their expansion?
  3. If, like most commuter railroads, parking lots at NJT stations are operating at capacity, is there land to expand parking, and who will pay for land acquisition and construction?
My point is that extending platforms at one station doesn't make longer trains feasible.
 

AmtrakBlue

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Not being familiar with NJT operations, I have questions:
  1. Is there passenger demand to fill longer trains?
  2. Are platforms on the NJT branches long enough; if not, who will fund their expansion?
  3. If, like most commuter railroads, parking lots at NJT stations are operating at capacity, is there land to expand parking, and who will pay for land acquisition and construction?
My point is that extending platforms at one station doesn't make longer trains feasible.
They can probably fill the longer trains with the pax that get left behind because engineers did not report to work to drive their trains.
 

jis

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Not being familiar with NJT operations, I have questions:
  1. Is there passenger demand to fill longer trains?
  2. Are platforms on the NJT branches long enough; if not, who will fund their expansion?
  3. If, like most commuter railroads, parking lots at NJT stations are operating at capacity, is there land to expand parking, and who will pay for land acquisition and construction?
My point is that extending platforms at one station doesn't make longer trains feasible.
Any platform extension on NJT property will have to be funded by NJ through NJDOT.

But running longer express trains involves only those stations that have express service, which are relatively small in number.

As for passenger demand, outside of the NEC demand beyond rush hours is arguably questionable for longer trains. NEC is a different kettle of fish altogether. They could probably run full 12 car trains, which they can already do now using the six center platforms of Penn Station, but don't because those trains would require two ALP45/6. Once they get the MPCs delivered enabling them to go for 4x3 (12 car) multi-level EMUs I am sure they will go for it on the NEC. Platforms that are a few cars short have never stopped NJT from operating longer trains anyway, but it would be nice to have the platforms extended to accommodate such too.
 
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Cal

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They can probably fill the longer trains with the pax that get left behind because engineers did not report to work to drive their trains.
I’ve heard about a lot of problems regarding this. Can you elaborate?
 

jis

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I can't but I'm sure some in the NJ-NY area can.
Same old staff shortage issue and attempting to run too many trains with more aggressive staff allocation than can be realistically achieved, leading to train ready to go with not enough staff to operate them, causing cancellations. A secondary problem has been completing maintenance that is required to field a legally operable train not being completed in a timely manner in the maintenance shops due to staff shortage.

In case of NJT not all of this was created due to COVID. Roughly half of it was created due to Governor Christie's mismanagement, But all the chicken came home to roost through the pandemic. They did not bother to continuously hire a train engineers and conductors to account for expected attrition due to retirements, allegedly to stay within the Governor's budgetary gimmicks. So one fine morning there wasn;t enough of anybody around to run all the scheduled trains. And on top of that came the pandemic.
 

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"No! Save Penn Station", say preservationists. https://archive.ph/Zv6nu

"New York preservationists decided to go for the nuclear option, to make their last stand. New York’s State Historic Preservation Office has said that 2 Penn Plaza, Madison Square Garden and Penn Station — dank, dark, dim, dismal, depressing, dangerous Penn Station — should be added to the National Register of Historic Places."
 

jebr

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"No! Save Penn Station", say preservationists. https://archive.ph/Zv6nu

"New York preservationists decided to go for the nuclear option, to make their last stand. New York’s State Historic Preservation Office has said that 2 Penn Plaza, Madison Square Garden and Penn Station — dank, dark, dim, dismal, depressing, dangerous Penn Station — should be added to the National Register of Historic Places."

It's a historically terrible train station, so I guess historic preservation it is! Gotta preserve the history of terrible late 20th-century train stations in the US!
 

jis

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It's a historically terrible train station, so I guess historic preservation it is! Gotta preserve the history of terrible late 20th-century train stations in the US!
While preserving things truly worth preserving is a good thing, once you let powerful laws allowing preservation of almost anything, it is inevitable that some folks will develop a panache for preserving every possible fire hydrant and urinal that they can find too. Such is life.

Not suggesting that the current Penn Station is necessarily a fire hydrant or urinal or anything like it, but I think it is highly arguable that it is worth preserving in its present form. Neither the Penn Plaza buildings nor Madison Square Garden are particularly unique in any way IMHO. AFAIK no one is proposing getting rid of them quite yet. All of the proposals are interstitial space use ones.

I think there may be a more justifiable concerns about some buildings in Block 780 which is essentially going to be razed to create Penn Station South and related office structures above it.
 
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jis

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An update on Penn Station 3.0 with a Hochul touch.

If you recall several of you may have participated in a survey regarding choice of features. One big question was single level airier concourse vs. two level one with more space for stores. Looks like single level won....

 

Deni

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An update on Penn Station 3.0 with a Hochul touch.

If you recall several of you may have participated in a survey regarding choice of features. One big question was single level airier concourse vs. two level one with more space for stores. Looks like single level won....

I do love the closing off of 33rd St all the way to 9th.
 

jis

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Tear Madison Square Garden and the office building down, but keep the surviving 1910 staircase(s) to the tracks! And any other relics which may be hiding beneath the floors or walls.
Fearless prediction.... unlikely to happen. Wherever the parts of old structure that remain that make sense to continue to remain, I am sure they will be preserved. But I doubt people will go out of their way to do so.

The current plan is to make better use of available spaces to make a better passenger circulation area, just like was done in the Moynihan Train Hall. Nothing was torn down.
 

joelkfla

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Some more developments regarding finances for Penn Station redevelopment

So the lawmakers say they are worried that the project will cost the state in lost taxes, and the developer says, don't worry, we'll be able to cover it with revenue from the project.

And the lawmakers also say they want a larger amount of the housing in the project to be affordable housing, which would of course reduce revenue.

Sounds like they want apple pie without paying for the apples.
 

jis

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So the lawmakers say they are worried that the project will cost the state in lost taxes, and the developer says, don't worry, we'll be able to cover it with revenue from the project.

And the lawmakers also say they want a larger amount of the housing in the project to be affordable housing, which would of course reduce revenue.

Sounds like they want apple pie without paying for the apples.
This is not surprising from a city and state that almost ran their entire transit system out of existence by insisting that fares could not be raised no matter what. They have a very long track record of such behavior.

In this case they want a fancy station head house without providing the means to pay for it and maintain it on an ongoing basis.
 
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