North-South Routes

[PArdgerunner]

this may have been covered at another time Iam not sure, but, can anyone say why there are so few North-South routes ? Especially in the central part of the country. With fuel prices the way they are and not ever likley to come back down wouldnt it make sence. They have enough east-west routes and the coasts are covered rather well but in the center part of the country we have nothing. Travel to some destinations could be easier without having to go to Chicago or the West Coast to change trains and continue on. I dont mind going to Chicago but to, say go from Denver to San Antonio you would go either east or west then change trains and back track. plus the time it takes go on a round about is double what it should be. Just one route north and south in the central or western part could be able to connect with any and all east west routes. any ideas?

 

[battalion51]

Part of the success of a train is partially that of what end points it serves (and the cities in between). Unfortunately there aren't that many cities that make sense to run north south trains between. I honestly think the biggest gap at this point is the Chicago to Miami market, but that's a whole different ballgame.

 

[Guest]

THe east and far west have North-south routes because there are more people therespread on a N/S axis, while the middle has people on an E/W axis. While it would be nice to have something, it isn't nessessary enough to be implamented

 

[Larry H.]

THe east and far west have North-south routes because there are more people therespread on a N/S axis, while the middle has people on an E/W axis. While it would be nice to have something, it isn't nessessary enough to be implamented

While that sounds good as a practical matter from the southern Illinois area I can tell you that many times I have wished to go to cincinattii or atlanta, or even florida for that matter and going through Chicago is a very time consuming and out of the way route. St. Louis Union Station had trains going to all parts of the country, not just Chicago! I agree, the people in the Mid West have been neglected along with many others. Right now the ridership on the Illinois services are up 16% due to one new train and Missouri is showing similar gains. I have always said people don't ride because the trains or not going where they need to go or when they want too.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Here is some perspective (from a 62-year old) on the places we would like trains to go. Todays Amtrak timetable has 136 pages. At home I have a 1957 Officail Railway Guide which has 1154 pages.

This kind of tells you that trains used to go all sorts of places.

But traffic started a serious decline back in the 50's. The railroads tried valiantly to put new life into the passenger business after World War 11 (lots of new cars---calld "streamlined"---- and new locomotives) but it was too little, too late.

So much went to the airways and building of interstate highways. Those highway subsidies helped the long distance bus as well as the auto, don't forget. It often made them faster than the fastest trains when they used to be almost invariably slower. Plus the loss of the U. S. mail contract (i.e. when first class mail was carried on passenger trains).

Jumping ahead, when Amtrak was formed in 1971, the idea was to reduce the nation to a few very strong routes....work them right...and then gradually build back up. Tear down and rise from the ashes, build back up!! At least that is the version we were told.

In a few ways that has happened, In many other ways, alas, nowhere near.

We need more funding and a greater outcry from the public that we need trains. Trains are so great in Europe but that is at least partly because so many of them were bombed out in World War 11 that they had to be rebuilt--so they were rebuilt right, not just a duplication of the same old same old.

Obviously none of the above is meant as an arguement against expansion---heaven forbid no---I want it as much or more than anybody..

Just to give a historical perspective and point out that we often did in the past have the routes you wish we had today. Even under Amtrak we used to have a train which went from Chicago to Miami via Indy, Louisville, Nashville, Birmingham, Montgomery and Jacksonville. It was discontinued in 1979, not so much maybe because of bad loadings but bad track conditions.

 

[Brian UK]

At home I have a 1957 Officail Railway Guide which has 1154 pages.

please oh please tell me how i can get hold of one of those! They sound like a work of art to me. Do they include all trains run by all companies or just long distance trains, and do they include detailed nationwide maps? If I were able to get one, I would want one that represented the defining post war year before retrenchment started. What year would you regard this to be? I have looked on ebay but no luck or I am looking in the wrong place.

Can anyone also tell me if there is a map available now that shows all current rail lines in the US, freight and passenger, inc commuter and subway etc, together with ownership, traffic density, single or multiple track, electrified etc. Ideally it would be truly geographic, not schematic and also show towns and cities and abandoned lines. Most road maps I have seen do not show rail lines nor do they seem to give a true indication of urban density.

Editing and producing UK rail timetables and maps is my profession, hence the interest. For anyone who is interested, the next edition (19 May 2007) will be the last ever printed version of the Great Britain National Rail Timetable, ending an unbroken tradition dating back to the first Bradshaw of 1839. From then on it is available electronically only! Progress apparently has no time for tradition.

Brian

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

At home I have a 1957 Officail Railway Guide which has 1154 pages.

please oh please tell me how i can get hold of one of those! They sound like a work of art to me. Do they include all trains run by all companies or just long distance trains, and do they include detailed nationwide maps? If I were able to get one, I would want one that represented the defining post war year before retrenchment started. What year would you regard this to be? I have looked on ebay but no luck or I am looking in the wrong place.

Can anyone also tell me if there is a map available now that shows all current rail lines in the US, freight and passenger, inc commuter and subway etc, together with ownership, traffic density, single or multiple track, electrified etc. Ideally it would be truly geographic, not schematic and also show towns and cities and abandoned lines. Most road maps I have seen do not show rail lines nor do they seem to give a true indication of urban density.

Editing and producing UK rail timetables and maps is my profession, hence the interest. For anyone who is interested, the next edition (19 May 2007) will be the last ever printed version of the Great Britain National Rail Timetable, ending an unbroken tradition dating back to the first Bradshaw of 1839. From then on it is available electronically only! Progress apparently has no time for tradition.

Brian

Try "Offical Railway Guide" on the internet itself. Look at e-bay and if you have access to any U.S. railroad magazines, like TRAIINS and CLASSIC TRAINS. lLook at the classified ads in the back, in case somebody has an ORG for sale.

It covered all long distance trains and at least some commuter trains, I know it covered the Long Island railroad. It had maps of each railroad. It had a complete listed of towns and cities all over the U.S. he

I would put late 50's as a good year before the gradual decline. The interstate highway is one of the biggest culprits but I do not remember the es exact years that embodied. It was gradual, of course.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Somehow I royally screwed up the above.

My answer found its way into BrianUKs quote.

My answer begins with "Try Official Railway Guide on the internet...........'

 

[MrFSS]

I believe you can get the old Official Railway Guides on CD's. too. Then you can open on your computer as needed. I've seen them on eBay.

 

[Brian UK]

thanks for the info. Have seen the CD advertised, not really interested in that except as a last resort, a bit like having the Mona Lisa as a jpeg! Prefer to have the real thing, aged, beaten and battered if necesary. Will check out Trains classifieds.

 

[AlanB]

Somehow I royally screwed up the above.
My answer found its way into BrianUKs quote.

My answer begins with "Try Official Railway Guide on the internet...........'

I fixed it for you Bill.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Brian UK, I know that railroad sales in the U.S will often have them. usually for a quite hefty price, if I remember. But maybe sales in the U.K. will have them also---watch for the ads in the newspaper about railroad sales. Look in the classifieds at the back of TRAINS--it will show railroad shows by state, in this country. Give you an additional idea of what I am talking about.

I never actually bought a Guide.But I have several, mine were just given to me by local ticket agents when they became out of date (lucky me!!!) But I've bought probably many of my old timetables through the years through the TRAINS classifieds.

And it seems possible you could find them at a sale in England, as I think a few European timetables can someetmes be found in US sales.

Anybody on this board ---not only BrianUK----who has an interest in the old trains--my advise is strongly to purchase a Railroad guide. Just one should be enough.

 

[Brian UK]

Thanks again. A timetable is like a map, it can tell a whole story about an era, about demographics and even social history if you can recognise the clues. In that respect I may struggle with a US timetable, but it would still make fascinating reading.

 

[George Harris]

I bought two and a not to excessive price on ebay a couple of years ago. Aim for the mid-50's. I too was after contents not a museum piece to look at under glass. Ebay is very much a buyer beware zone. Not all things are as stated. Some sellers will not deliver to a non-US address. When you buy on ebay you will find that you get, or at least I did, several phishers after you for a while, saying there is a problem with your ebay account, etc., etc. I have never used pay pal, always after a couple of emails sent a check, but not sure how well that works if you have no US bank account.

 

[AlanB]

When you buy on ebay you will find that you get, or at least I did, several phishers after you for a while, saying there is a problem with your ebay account, etc., etc. I have never used pay pal, always after a couple of emails sent a check, but not sure how well that works if you have no US bank account.

Heh, are you kidding George.

I've never brought anything on EBay, and I have no paypal account and never have had one. Yet I get at least 5 to 6, and sometimes even more, emails per month on my various email accounts informing me about problems with my EBay account or my PayPal account.

You don't need to buy on EBay or setup an account with PayPal to get those email, you just need to have an email account.

Heck I even get emails from various banks, like FifthThird bank whom I've never even heard of, informing me of problems with my account. :blink:

 

[George Harris]

Maybe true, but I did not start getting them until after I bought something on ebay. Maybe just going to ebay was enough. Yeah, I get these FirstThird Bank, various other banks, even in countries I have never been to, can you help me move millions out of Nigeria or somewhere else, hot stock tips, etc. While we are being completely off topic, see what happens if within a one week period you 1. charge a plane ticket in the US (my wife), 2. a medical bill in Taiwan, and 3. a magazine subscription renewal in England all to the same credit card account after not using the card at all for three months. I think I must have set off alarm bells all over their building. I understood their reaction, but it still took two weeks and several phone calls and emails to get my subscription renewal settled after the card company rejected the charge on the basis that I could not be in three places at once.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

About the Official Railway Guide. I took a good long look at one of mine last night, the Sept. 57, and re-discovered how much is really in it.

First, I was wrong about the pages, it is actually 1488 pages.

Here are some of the contents:

Airline schedules page 36-103

railroad stations ,address and phone numbers page 1241-1477

list of military posts page 1483-1486

list of national parks page 1580-1481

raillroad and naviagation companies, page 105-1235. Actually at page 1094 it starts coveirng Canada and Mexico, so actually U.S. passenger info would be from page 105-1094, or a total of about 989 pages.

Points in the U.S. reached by water page 1236-1250

transatlantic ship sailings, page 26-35.

I note that Mr. Harris agrees with me about the mid (or late) 50's. I, being a southeasterner, have an adddtional suggestion. Aim, if possible for a wintner Guide, that is, December of one year through April of tthe next. Why? Because if you have any interest in in the New York to Florida, Chicago to Florida or Detroit, Cincinnati to Florida business you will find trains stuffed fuller and fatter in the winter with extra sleepers to get people from the cold climes to spend some time in the warm climes, "snowbirds" they are called. The routes out of New York even had additional trains during the winter.

Anyone else, reading this, take note of above paragraph.

And by the late 50's most of the railroads had ordered all of the new equipment they were ever going to order. The second shipment of El Capitan hi-level coaches in the mid 60's is a noticeable exception.

But a thing or two like that El Cap order does not make up for the mounting losses in service.

How does this decline work that I am talking about? Well, not just fewer trains but also shorter trains. A hypothetical example: a train which in 1955 had 5 coaches, one diner, one lounge and 3 sleepers, might, in 1965, have 3 coaches, one diner and one sleeper. THAT kind of thing.

I guess the Guide includes all the commuter lines. I do not know enough about them (much less the trains in Canada or Mexico ) to know how really "complete" the info on them is. Likewise, the airlines and ships I have no way of verifying if this is ALL the schedules or just sort of skimming the service.

In any case, I recommend the Offical Railway Guide highly, and any interested should check all over the internet and see what you can find further about it. I suspect it is published today but I do not have any new ones.

 

[rmgreenesq]

I've never brought anything on EBay, and I have no paypal account and never have had one. Yet I get at least 5 to 6, and sometimes even more, emails per month on my various email accounts informing me about problems with my EBay account or my PayPal account.
You don't need to buy on EBay or setup an account with PayPal to get those email, you just need to have an email account.

Heck I even get emails from various banks, like FifthThird bank whom I've never even heard of, informing me of problems with my account. :blink:

The phishers are getting creative. I've gotten an e-mail receipt for a $2500 laptop with a link to follow to "cancel" the order. I've also gotten an e-mail from a credit card company informing me that my account was delinquent and to follow the link to talk to them about this problem.

I've also gotten the Nigerian 419 scam e-mail in French. Its nice to see that its not just an anglophone problem.

Ok back to talking about trains.

Rick

 

[AmtrakWPK]

I've had a couple of tech-types who, when they get a phishing email, send a response using a disposable email address, giving them a completely fictitious name, address, account number, etc., to give them something to do that will net them nothing but a waste of their own time as a reward for wasting ours. If there was some way to actually send each one of them a few million completely bogus responses, completely flood their email accounts with legitimate looking but fictitious responses, it might help cure the problem. Basically give them a few thousand gallons of their own medicine, so to speak.