Now I've used it I can see why some people HATE Amtrak

[opaque]

I am now in Washington Dc after leaving New York's Penn Station earlier today on the 147 Regional. My first experience of Amtrak after a few days in NY.

Thanks to kind people on here I managed to get my tickets from the Quik Tickets machine the day before and knew what to look out for in Penn Station.

All seemed to be going well until the 195 Regional train was first delayed by 35 minutes, then cancelled and they said everyone could go onto the 147 Regional. So of course when the 147 was called there was this enormous rush of people with masses of cases.

So we got down the escalator and get onto the train and it's already packed. Obviously there were a lot of people already on the train and then eveyone else piled on blocking every bit of the train. Utter madness.

I was in a vestibule with a couple of other people but was then told to get out of it into one of the carriages and so had to squash into the end of one of the carriages. Only once the train was already 10 minutes late and we were all jammed in they made the anouncement that anyone that wanted to could get out and wait for the next train which was about 50 minutes later. Now if they'd said that at the start I think there would have been more takers but physically getting out would have been impossible for some people by that point.

We left and I ended up standing from Penn Station to Philadelphia which was a bit over 2 hours. When I eventually sat down I was very impressed with how big the seats are and how comfy it was, nice big windows as well so generally I was happy from that point (when I was standing I was watching Big Bang Theory and listening to an audiobook on my ipod so I was occupied.) but I know there were a lot of people on the train and others who didn't/couldn't get on at different stations who were exceptionally annoyed at the situation.

The announcements over the speakers were generally so quiet youcouldn't hear them either. I actually heard it better when I was stood in the vestibule!

Got into Union Station at about 4.25, so an hour late.

I think with any trip just sat in coach normally I'd be very happy, Amtrak coach seats are great, so much bigger and better than the trains in the UK but I am happy that I will have a bedroom for the next 2 trips I'm taking (Capitol Limitedand California Zephyr).

 

[Guest]

Well I hope our elected officials take notice. This can happen especially with the recent airline bankrupcies and cancellations. We need a sophisticated rail network because you cannot rely on air transportation alone. I am sorry you had to experience Amtrak under these conditions but I did the same 4 years ago during a wicked east coast storm. The state of Maryland was under a state of Emergency for three days due to two feet of snow which meant no driving and all airports were closed. I had to get to New York from BWI and I got on an Amtrak and stood next to someone's armpit for four hours. I didn't care. It was the only way for me to reach my destination and they got me there. I am sure the prior cancellation and other factors made your trip unpleaseant. I hope your future travels on Amtrak will be more satisfactory.

 

[transit54]

Not to understate your poor Amtrak experience, but your one hour delay is nothing compared to the world of air travel. As many on the forum know, I work for an air carrier, and 2-3 hour delays on a one hour flight are incredibly common - we fly four flights a day BTV-JFK and in a good week, maybe one or two will take 1 hour plus delays. On a bad week, night after night flights can be delayed for multiple hours. I remember once coming in to work a three hour shift (2-5 PM) to push out one JFK bound flight last summer. Due to thunderstorms in the New York region, the plane, which was a 4:30 departure, didn't leave till close till 12 AM. On another occasion, which I was thankfully absent for, the plane left around 1 AM or so. These sorts of extreme delays are very uncommon, but delays 1-3 hours are routine for some airports.

Any form of travel has to potential to be delayed, canceled, or otherwise disrupted. But compared to flying, taking the train is generally a very, very reliable way to get around, especially on the NEC.

 

[jackal]

Since the delay, cancellation, and then overbooking (or at least overcrowding) of Regional 147 was completely Amtrak's fault, you should be able to get some recompense. Call or write the customer service department and explain what happened and they will be very likely to refund some (or all) of your ticket cost. Make sure to tell them you had to stand for more than half of the journey.

In some instances, Amtrak conductors have been known to not take tickets of people who had to stand in overbooking situations (leaving you free to get a refund or exchange for anothe ticket), but it appears that did not happen in this case. However, in situations like this, I have heard of Amtrak giving credits for this type of service, since Amtrak seats are supposed to be reserved and guaranteed.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

It sounds to me like Amtrak's major mistake there was not to make it clear to passengers that the 147 was going to be overcrowded, and to not offer the alternative of the train after the 147 when they announced which track train 147 was on. (They should have been able to figure out from the number of reservations that 147 was going to be overcrowded when doing it this way.)

Other than that, they probably really were doing the best they could given the circumstanes. In an ideal world, what they should have done in this situation would be to attach several extra coaches to train 147 so that everyone would get a seat, but that would require them to have the extra coaches in the right place. (And if they did have some spare coaches lying around in Sunnyside Yard, I'm not sure if they can easily add them to a train while the train is in NYP in the middle of its run, though I think I have read somewhere that if you have a private car, NYP is a valid place to get it attached to or detached from a train. The bigger problem is that Amtrak's popularity has been growing at a time when its rolling stock collection hasn't. Though on the other hand, given that this must have been a Saturday, the weekend may have less demand for Amtrak service than the weekdays. But I'm not sure that that translates into extra rolling stock sitting in Sunnyside Yard.)

I've sometimes found on the MBTA Red Line that if one train is overcrowded, waiting for the next one makes a trip considerably more pleasant. But Amtrak trains don't come so frequently, and giving the people who are impatient to reach their destinations the opportunity to be on the crowded train is probably the tradeoff some passengers prefer. Plus, if they didn't have extra coaches to add and the trains were nearly sold out, some people were going to need to stand on 147 and the train after it no matter what, unless they didn't want to get everyone to their destination with those two trains.

 

[AlanB]

Other than that, they probably really were doing the best they could given the circumstanes. In an ideal world, what they should have done in this situation would be to attach several extra coaches to train 147 so that everyone would get a seat, but that would require them to have the extra coaches in the right place. (And if they did have some spare coaches lying around in Sunnyside Yard, I'm not sure if they can easily add them to a train while the train is in NYP in the middle of its run, though I think I have read somewhere that if you have a private car, NYP is a valid place to get it attached to or detached from a train. The bigger problem is that Amtrak's popularity has been growing at a time when its rolling stock collection hasn't. Though on the other hand, given that this must have been a Saturday, the weekend may have less demand for Amtrak service than the weekdays. But I'm not sure that that translates into extra rolling stock sitting in Sunnyside Yard.)

On a Saturday, I'm pretty sure that they would have had some extra coaches sitting in Sunnyside. The questions are, were those coaches cleaned and ready for use? Did they have a crew available to shuttle them into Penn? Did they have a crew available to attach the cars? How many coaches were already on the train and could the engine have pulled the extra coaches? Or would that have required yet another engine and still more switching? Would adding more coaches have required another Assistant Conductor and was one available? I'm not sure what the rule is, but there must be one conductor for every so many coaches.

And that's before we consider that Amtrak does try to avoid doing any switching in Penn Station if it can help it, especially on a weekday. Now granted this was a Saturday, but again they try not to switch in Penn if they can. Platforms are at too much of a premium to tie one up with a switching operation.

As for PV's, I'm not so sure that they switch them on/off in Penn. I've haven't seen a PV sitting in Penn, but I have seen plenty sitting in Sunnyside over the years. I'm not saying that they don't park one in Penn, but I've never seen one just sitting around.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

http://www.aaprco.com/charter-request/Dest...dest-guide.html seems to think that private cars can be added to some trains at Penn Station (but perhaps not all, and it's odd that that list seems to be using the term Regional for some Empire Service trains).

I'm not convinced that a car at the end of its run that hasn't been cleaned would necessarily be worse for a 3.5 hour trip from NYP to Washington DC than standing in an overcrowded car, in this specific sort of situation where you could walk to a car that had been more recently cleaned if you needed a restroom, but the other issues you raise probably explain why this particular point doesn't really matter.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

http://www.startrakinc.com/hickorycreek/plan_trip/trains.htm explains that private cars are generally limited to 110 MPH, which is why most Regionals don't carry them. (I'm not entirely clear on whether Amtrak explicitly won't carry private cars with 125 MPH trucks at 125 MPH, or whether it just happens that private cars in practice don't tend to have 125 MPH trucks.)

I wonder if the Heritage baggage car on #66/#67 limits the speed of that train. (Do the Viewliners have the ability to operate at 125 MPH, not that it matters now that there are no Viewliners available for #66/#67?)

 

[Chris J.]

So we got down the escalator and get onto the train and it's already packed. Obviously there were a lot of people already on the train and then eveyone else piled on blocking every bit of the train. Utter madness.

I didn't know First Great Western had taken over Amtrak :lol:

It's not good, and given the mess the US airlines seem to be in at the moment, it's not a very good advert for Amtrak. If people are taking the train because of a problem with their flight, you don't want the journey to be so painful for them that they walk away thinking "stuff that, next time i'll just wait it out at the airport".

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I've seen several PVs and also Beech Grove on the back of Silver Service trains leaving Newark Northbound, so I assume they accomodate switching PVs in some capacity.

 

[The Metropolitan]

Yesterday was a pretty fouled up day along the NEC, particularly for those headed Southbound.

Friends and I returned from Pittsburgh yesterday via The Pennsylvanian to Philadelphia, and then to Baltimore on Regional #165 after a deliberate 6 hour layover in Philly.

When we arrived back at 30th Street Station, we noticed a mere "DELAYED" message for both train #135 and #57, both of which were 1-2 hours in front of our #165. When our train was called, we were advised that patrons ticketed for these trains would be cross honored on our #165.

We expected a crowded train, but, we didn't expect what we got - every seat in the house was gone, and people were sitting in the end areas (not the vestibules) and standing in the aisles. In the end, we stood for the 1.25 hour trip to Baltimore.

Adding insult to injury, at least 2 of our coaches were the "low density" B/C type of cars, meaning less seats available for patrons to sit in. The Conductors were doing a good job of holding their composure, enforcing rules about keeping the aisles passable and vestibules clear, and making sure everyone got off where they needed to. Our tickets were never lifted.

They did inform us that one of the delayed trains had struck a trespasser, while the other had encountered mechanical difficulties (presumably while still under diesel power).

I've ridden the NEC many many times, and had encountered a good share of pretty full trains, but nothing at all like this. So for that, I pretty much chalk it up as an odd fluke.

 

[jackal]

The Conductors were doing a good job of holding their composure, enforcing rules about keeping the aisles passable and vestibules clear, and making sure everyone got off where they needed to. Our tickets were never lifted.

Good of them to not lift your tickets.

Why do Amtrak conductors make such a huge deal about keeping the vestibules clear? It can't be an FRA safety thing, as the Alaska Railroad actually encourages passengers to stay in the vestibules and even lean out the open windows! At station stops, it's understandable (to allow people to board and leave) but en route, what's the big deal?

 

[PRR 60]

The Conductors were doing a good job of holding their composure, enforcing rules about keeping the aisles passable and vestibules clear, and making sure everyone got off where they needed to. Our tickets were never lifted.

Good of them to not lift your tickets.

Why do Amtrak conductors make such a huge deal about keeping the vestibules clear? It can't be an FRA safety thing, as the Alaska Railroad actually encourages passengers to stay in the vestibules and even lean out the open windows! At station stops, it's understandable (to allow people to board and leave) but en route, what's the big deal?

The automatic doors have been known to open inadvertantly. At 125mph that would not be a good thing for someone standing at or leaning on the door. At 125mph with another train passing at 125mph the opposite direction: even worse. The best way to prevent that problem is to keep the vestibules clear on trains with automatic doors..

 

[jis]

I wonder if the Heritage baggage car on #66/#67 limits the speed of that train. (Do the Viewliners have the ability to operate at 125 MPH, not that it matters now that there are no Viewliners available for #66/#67?)

The general instruction in the employee TTs that I have seen state that the presence of any Heritage car in the consist limits the speed of the train to 110mph. So it is safe to say that 66/67 is limited to 110mph. Given its schedule it wouldn't matter even if it were restricted to 90mph.

Generally trains that carry Viewliners also carry a Heritage Baggage Car and often a Heritage Diner. So what the Viewliners are allowed is almost moot.

On a Saturday, I'm pretty sure that they would have had some extra coaches sitting in Sunnyside. The questions are, were those coaches cleaned and ready for use? Did they have a crew available to shuttle them into Penn? Did they have a crew available to attach the cars? How many coaches were already on the train and could the engine have pulled the extra coaches? Or would that have required yet another engine and still more switching? Would adding more coaches have required another Assistant Conductor and was one available? I'm not sure what the rule is, but there must be one conductor for every so many coaches.

<sarcasm on>

Sheesh! You expect Sunnyside which seems to be unable to even get a scheduled train consist into Penn Station on time a third of the time, to actually pull off such an enormously complicated operation just for the benefit of a few hundred hapless passengers?

<sarcasm off>

 

[RRrich]

I am sure that in bad weather, Amtrak becomes lousy, similarly with FAA induced airline fiascos, Amtrak fails.

But this is nothing new - I remember when I was a Senior in High School (1960, 1961??) I took a little trip from New York to Baltimore to look at a college. I don't remember the trip down - probably sat in coach, but I do remember that the weather became a snow storm, all flights were canceled and the return train was very crowded - I had to stand the whole way back to NYP.

That was about a half century ago - and it sounds like Same old same old

 

[AlanB]

http://www.aaprco.com/charter-request/Dest...dest-guide.html seems to think that private cars can be added to some trains at Penn Station (but perhaps not all, and it's odd that that list seems to be using the term Regional for some Empire Service trains).

I see nothing on that list that says PV's can be added at Penn Station. It only says that PV's can be added to trains in NY City. Sunnyside Queens is still part of NYC, so that qualifies as allowing a PV to be switched in NYC. Again, I won't swear that they don't add/subtract them at Penn, but I don't think that they do. They simply don't want that confusion going on at Penn.

As for the Regional thing and the ES, that's not surprising. Under the original marketing plan that gave us Acela, Empire service was to fall under the heading of Acela Regional.

 

[ThayerATM]

The Conductors were doing a good job of holding their composure, enforcing rules about keeping the aisles passable and vestibules clear, and making sure everyone got off where they needed to. Our tickets were never lifted.

Good of them to not lift your tickets.

Why do Amtrak conductors make such a huge deal about keeping the vestibules clear? It can't be an FRA safety thing, as the Alaska Railroad actually encourages passengers to stay in the vestibules and even lean out the open windows! At station stops, it's understandable (to allow people to board and leave) but en route, what's the big deal?

The automatic doors have been known to open inadvertantly. At 125mph that would not be a good thing for someone standing at or leaning on the door. At 125mph with another train passing at 125mph the opposite direction: even worse. The best way to prevent that problem is to keep the vestibules clear on trains with automatic doors..

I'd buy that explanation, except if safety was really the issue we'd all be required to stay in our seats, rooms, etc and not walk about the train. There appears to be another issue with vestibles. I don't know what it is, but I suspect that it's just a "rule."

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

There are health problems that can be caused by sitting in a seat for too long, though.

 

[NJCoastExp]

147 was overloaded because 195 was cancelled in Stamford. I did not press agent for details.

I was interested in fate of 195 because i am keeping track of it for future trip to Florida in the summer.

 

[opaque]

An hour delay isn't that bad I agree, I had nearly a 2 hour delay leaving the UK from Gatwick and I've known people get stuck for many many hours on planes but as soon as the 2 train loads of people made their way to 12W I could hear the moaning and annoyed customers and they'd not even got to the train yet. Just typical it was my first Amtrak trip.

If it hadn't been my first trip and I wanted to stick to the train I was expecting and knew where I was going and when I would have got out and got the next train.

What would I say would have been the best way to dealing with it? Have the 195 people wait until the next 195 train. It was coming in under an hour and either hope or make sure theres enough space for those people. That was what they eventually suggested anyway once we'd all got in and what was also announced over the tannoy at a couple of stops. Would have been better all round. Not fair for those passengers but why force them on us?

Certainly doesn't put me off Amtrak (hard to anyway as I have to use them twice more on my holiday lol) but I have seen the side of Amtrak I've read about. If you had someone who wasn't sure about using Amtrak and went on that train they'd have lost their custom and probably that of many of their friends that they told about what happened.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The Conductors were doing a good job of holding their composure, enforcing rules about keeping the aisles passable and vestibules clear, and making sure everyone got off where they needed to. Our tickets were never lifted.

Good of them to not lift your tickets.

Why do Amtrak conductors make such a huge deal about keeping the vestibules clear? It can't be an FRA safety thing, as the Alaska Railroad actually encourages passengers to stay in the vestibules and even lean out the open windows! At station stops, it's understandable (to allow people to board and leave) but en route, what's the big deal?

The automatic doors have been known to open inadvertantly. At 125mph that would not be a good thing for someone standing at or leaning on the door. At 125mph with another train passing at 125mph the opposite direction: even worse. The best way to prevent that problem is to keep the vestibules clear on trains with automatic doors..

I'd buy that explanation, except if safety was really the issue we'd all be required to stay in our seats, rooms, etc and not walk about the train. There appears to be another issue with vestibles. I don't know what it is, but I suspect that it's just a "rule."

Here's whats going to happen. Mr. Moron is standing in the vestibule of a 125-mph reigonal, leaning his stupid self on the sliding door, in the first car on the train. For whatever reason, the door opens. Mr. Moron goes flying out of the train to be smashed by an oncoming Acela doing 150mph. Blood and gore splatter all over both trains. 500 people initiate a class action lawsuit against Amtrak for the menal anguish of seeing a fine mist of blood spray on their windows, while the Moron estate sues Amtrak for "negligence".

 

[jackal]

Here's whats going to happen. Mr. Moron is standing in the vestibule of a 125-mph reigonal, leaning his stupid self on the sliding door, in the first car on the train. For whatever reason, the door opens. Mr. Moron goes flying out of the train to be smashed by an oncoming Acela doing 150mph. Blood and gore splatter all over both trains. 500 people initiate a class action lawsuit against Amtrak for the menal anguish of seeing a fine mist of blood spray on their windows, while the Moron estate sues Amtrak for "negligence".

Welcome to the good ol' U.S. of A...

 

[Amtrak OBS Employee gone f]

The automatic doors have been known to open inadvertantly. At 125mph that would not be a good thing for someone standing at or leaning on the door. At 125mph with another train passing at 125mph the opposite direction: even worse. The best way to prevent that problem is to keep the vestibules clear on trains with automatic doors..

I'd buy that explanation, except if safety was really the issue we'd all be required to stay in our seats, rooms, etc and not walk about the train. There appears to be another issue with vestibles. I don't know what it is, but I suspect that it's just a "rule."

Here's whats going to happen. Mr. Moron is standing in the vestibule of a 125-mph reigonal, leaning his stupid self on the sliding door, in the first car on the train. For whatever reason, the door opens. Mr. Moron goes flying out of the train to be smashed by an oncoming Acela doing 150mph. Blood and gore splatter all over both trains. 500 people initiate a class action lawsuit against Amtrak for the menal anguish of seeing a fine mist of blood spray on their windows, while the Moron estate sues Amtrak for "negligence".

Lion, presents a great scenario here as well. But the primary reason we can not allow passengers to stand/ride in a vestibule is simple. These Budd built Amfleet cars were designed to take the force of impact in a collison at the ends of the cars. In other words they will crumple up in the event of a collison while the body of the car itself is stronger, and rightfully so as that is where you spend your time riding. So use a vestibule for which the term means. That is to provide a passage way between cars, or to allow boarding and detraining. That is it's sole purpose. So you are safer in the body of the car instead of in the vestibule. Use that to get through or on and off the train. And regarding the comments on the Alaska Railroad, that is all fine and dandy, but I personally don't see them operating a train in excess of 100 mph either. I don't know much about that railroad, but do they even have any 79 mph territory? But anyway the wind blows, they are the ones who will deal with it if something were to happen. Now, we revert back to Lion's original statement, and here we go!

OBS gone freight...

 

[jackal]

And regarding the comments on the Alaska Railroad, that is all fine and dandy, but I personally don't see them operating a train in excess of 100 mph either. I don't know much about that railroad, but do they even have any 79 mph territory? But anyway the wind blows, they are the ones who will deal with it if something were to happen.

They have about 60 miles of CTC with a 13-mile stretch of 60mph; the other 400 miles are DTC (GCOR Rule 16.1, if you need to look it up) with a maximum speed of 49mph (and a couple of places with 59mph). The rail traffic, and hence, the risk of collision, is fairly low (two freights and one passenger train in each direction each day, plus a few miscellaneous work trains and shorter-distance gravel trains and the like). Their passenger services (which do turn a profit!) are mostly oriented towards the tourism industry, and leaning out the vestibule windows is a big attraction for seeing the wildlife and scenery, so that may be a factor in their decision to allow it. Plus, many of the tour contractor coaches (owned by cruise lines like Princess, Royal Carribbean, and Holland America and attached to the rear of some of the trains) as well as the new Alaska Railroad-owned (and Colorado Railcar-built) first-class dome cars, have open-air decks. Frankly, I'm glad the overly-cautious attitude of the rest of the U.S. hasn't quite caught on up here (yet)--in Alaska, stupid people are allowed to weed themselves out of the gene pool...

 

[Green Maned Lion]

in Alaska, stupid people are allowed to weed themselves out of the gene pool...

Thats how I wish it was everywhere.