Palmetto tragedy

[JSmith]

Last night's Palmetto hit a car. Someone drove around the crossing arms and killed 4 people including a 12-year-old.

http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/864498.html

I can't even try to get my head into the thought-process of people who do this. I have never in my life, even as a reckless teenager, thought it would be a good idea to try to drive around a railroad crossing. And I don't even remember needing to have this drilled into my head via Operation Lifesaver PSAs, etc. And with a kid in the car!?? Amazing.

Side question: does the Palmetto typically only carry 20 passengers? That seems quite low for a daily train...

 

[Greg]

Last night's Palmetto hit a car. Someone drove around the crossing arms and killed 4 people including a 12-year-old.
http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/864498.html

I can't even try to get my head into the thought-process of people who do this. I have never in my life, even as a reckless teenager, thought it would be a good idea to try to drive around a railroad crossing. And I don't even remember needing to have this drilled into my head via Operation Lifesaver PSAs, etc. And with a kid in the car!?? Amazing.

Side question: does the Palmetto typically only carry 20 passengers? That seems quite low for a daily train...

I believe it was near the end of its run, between Charleston and Savannah, thus would have maybe only Savannah bound passengers onboard. A tragedy....

 

[wayman]

Last night's Palmetto hit a car. Someone drove around the crossing arms and killed 4 people including a 12-year-old.
http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/864498.html

I can't even try to get my head into the thought-process of people who do this. I have never in my life, even as a reckless teenager, thought it would be a good idea to try to drive around a railroad crossing. And I don't even remember needing to have this drilled into my head via Operation Lifesaver PSAs, etc. And with a kid in the car!?? Amazing.

Side question: does the Palmetto typically only carry 20 passengers? That seems quite low for a daily train...

First and foremost, I absolutely agree that one should never, under any circumstance try to drive around a railroad crossing gate. If the driver didn't see the train, somehow, and just saw the gate and figured "eh, I'll just keep going", that's terribly stupid and there's no excuse for it. And if the driver swerved around the gate, obviously he saw it was down. Case closed, he was an idiot.

But ... then there's this: it's one huge level of stupid to think "oh geez, a 100-car coal train lumbering along at 25mph ... I don't want to be stuck here for five minutes, so I'd better beat it to the crossing!", but it's a much, much larger level of stupid to think "oh look, it's a five-car passenger train clipping along at 60mph, I sure don't want to be held up for 30 seconds while it passes, so I'd better beat it to the crossing!" :blink:

Maybe he didn't see the train, and only saw the gate. But I bet he saw the train, and not only made one really stupid decision, but two really stupid decisions. Sigh.

 

[AAARGH!]

This also from CNN.

Based on the location description, this (Google maps) might be the location of the collision.

 

[Tony]

Somehow, I think the word "tragedy" isn't quite the right one.

Some really stupid people intentionally do something extremely dumb, and killed themselves. The only pity I feel, is for Amtrak and it being the innocent victim here.

 

[VT Hokie]

Somehow, I think the word "tragedy" isn't quite the right one.
Some really stupid people intentionally do something extremely dumb, and killed themselves. The only pity I feel, is for Amtrak and it being the innocent victim here.

Yes, I'm sure that 12 year old was as much at fault as the driver.

 

[VentureForth]

Right in my back yard.

Crap. I'm about to send my kid on the Palmetto next week. I suppose I'll just keep this quiet. We've already discussed the possibilities of this very thing happening... Averages say it won't be here again any time soon. It is reassuring for me, as a dad, that the train is still safer than the car in this sort of scenario, but my heart is still heavy for those in Hardeeville.

 

[AAARGH!]

Somehow, I think the word "tragedy" isn't quite the right one.
Some really stupid people intentionally do something extremely dumb, and killed themselves. The only pity I feel, is for Amtrak and it being the innocent victim here.

I do consider it a tragedy regardless of how stupid the actions of the initiator are. Four people are needlessly dead, three of them due to no fault of their own, not to mention the emotional trauma the engineer / crew may be suffering as well as the family(s) of the dead.

I do not consider the driver a victim, but I do the others, including Amtrak.

Use the word 'tragedy' how you see fit, but for me, this fits the definition to a tee.

 

[VentureForth]

Last night's Palmetto hit a car. Someone drove around the crossing arms and killed 4 people including a 12-year-old.
http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/864498.html

I can't even try to get my head into the thought-process of people who do this. I have never in my life, even as a reckless teenager, thought it would be a good idea to try to drive around a railroad crossing. And I don't even remember needing to have this drilled into my head via Operation Lifesaver PSAs, etc. And with a kid in the car!?? Amazing.

Side question: does the Palmetto typically only carry 20 passengers? That seems quite low for a daily train...

I believe it was near the end of its run, between Charleston and Savannah, thus would have maybe only Savannah bound passengers onboard. A tragedy....

I concur. When I rode last January, I was the only pax in business class between Charleston and Savannah.

Which, by the way, was way cool. Except for the vestibule door opening and closing. And opening and closing...

 

[Ryan]

three of them due to no fault of their own

At least 2 out of the 3 certainly could have told the driver to stop, and I'll bet that even the 12 year old was smart enough to not go in front of trains as well.

I think that personally I'll reserve use of the word tragedy for things slightly more tragic than this.

 

[wayman]

Somehow, I think the word "tragedy" isn't quite the right one.
Some really stupid people intentionally do something extremely dumb, and killed themselves. The only pity I feel, is for Amtrak and it being the innocent victim here.

I do consider it a tragedy regardless of how stupid the actions of the initiator are. Four people are needlessly dead, three of them due to no fault of their own, not to mention the emotional trauma the engineer / crew may be suffering as well as the family(s) of the dead.

I do not consider the driver a victim, but I do the others, including Amtrak.

Use the word 'tragedy' how you see fit, but for me, this fits the definition to a tee.

Absolutely. There weren't "really stupid people" at fault -- just one "really stupid person". If the dead could be charged with crimes, the driver would be charged and found guilty of three counts of vehicular manslaughter at the very least. He is not a victim, and he is not merely an idiot: he's also a criminal and a killer. (But note: Unless there are other circumstances we don't know about, I don't think we can legally call him a "murderer".)

His passengers very likely did no wrong which contributed to the accident; they are victims. And the train crew are very much victims who will forever carry the burden of having been an instrument of fate through no fault of their own, with no opportunity to take preventive action. This is the tragedy.

 

[wayman]

three of them due to no fault of their own

At least 2 out of the 3 certainly could have told the driver to stop, and I'll bet that even the 12 year old was smart enough to not go in front of trains as well.

I think that personally I'll reserve use of the word tragedy for things slightly more tragic than this.

We have no reason to think that any of the passengers were encouraging the driver, or supporting his decision. It's even quite reasonable to think that one or more of the passengers did tell the driver to stop. That doesn't mean the driver will listen, or that the warning will come in time for the driver to act on it.

Several times, I've been a passenger in a vehicle and encountered a traffic situation where I was so sure the driver would make the obvious correct choice that I had no reason to think I should say "slow down" or the like ... and been surprised that the driver did something I would consider foolhardy. And by the point I realized the driver was actually doing something stupid, there was no time to do anything -- I could yell "slow down!" but it would be too late. Something like not slowing down enough before taking an exit ramp with a sharp turn -- and by the time I realize that the driver really isn't slowing down, we're already on the shoulder and squealing the tires. Fortunately, this has never resulted in me being injured or killed. But it has happened several times when riding with responsible drivers who were in no way under the influence or giving any indication they were about to make a bad decision.

 

[saxman]

Its just mere complacency on those who walk along the drive onto the tracks. To the average person you often see railroad tracks for a brief moment in time, and usually there isn't a train on them. Perhaps they are abandoned or just see a few trains a day so you always a assume when you're on the tracks there probably won't be a train. Or when you do see a train, usually they are moving slowly. Its a sad deal when you end up on the tracks at the same time as a train though.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Somehow, I think the word "tragedy" isn't quite the right one.
Some really stupid people intentionally do something extremely dumb, and killed themselves. The only pity I feel, is for Amtrak and it being the innocent victim here.

the driver is the stupid one not the 3 passengers. unless they were egging him on but i doubt the 12 year old would be doing that. :angry:

 

[Amtrak839]

natural selection:

–noun

the process by which forms of life having traits that better enable them to adapt to specific environmental pressures, such as predators fast moving trains, changes in climate, or competition for food or mates, will tend to survive and reproduce in greater numbers than others of their kind, thus ensuring the perpetuation of those favorable traits in succeeding generations

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I feel nothing but happiness at the ending of the life of someone as stupid as the driver of that car. I feel great sorrow for the three innocent passengers of the car that died with them, and the engineer who had to watch it happen, and the conductor who had to look at the bodies.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

the driver is the stupid one not the 3 passengers. unless they were egging him on but i doubt the 12 year old would be doing that. :angry:

You must not know many twelve year olds.

I wouldn't have egged my dad on for that one, back then, but I did egg him to go faster. Of course, your talking about someone who then won SCCA events and so on- I race cars - but it would be silly to suggest that 12 year olds don't do dumb things or encourage them.

 

[VentureForth]

the driver is the stupid one not the 3 passengers. unless they were egging him on but i doubt the 12 year old would be doing that. :angry:

You must not know many twelve year olds.

I wouldn't have egged my dad on for that one, back then, but I did egg him to go faster. Of course, your talking about someone who then won SCCA events and so on- I race cars - but it would be silly to suggest that 12 year olds don't do dumb things or encourage them.

...It's the idiocy of an adult that would actually comply with the eggings of a 12 year old. My kids always tell me to "beat mommy home" when we're in different cars, but I don't. Maybe it's the 37 years in me...

 

[AAARGH!]

I feel nothing but happiness at the ending of the life of someone as stupid as the driver of that car.

What is wrong with you? They may be stupid, but have some compassion. A life was lost. What if a family member read this?

Not meaning to get personal, but these kind of statements irk me. :angry:

 

[Bob Dylan]

Weve had these threads lots of times and its always a tragedy when someone dies in a train/vehicle collision!

Cant call it an accident, anyone who drives across tracks without looking is an idiot even when the lights arent flashing and the gates down! Here in the south there are thousands of unmarked crossings and we lead the world in train/vehicle collisions because of stupidity. political indifference (show me the money to fix them!) and misplaced macismo!

Im sorry for the families and friends of the victims but that doesnt include the idiot driver, IMHO there is no excuse for this! The crew and pax on the train are also needless victims as always!

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

These incidents cause tremendous passions over these incidents. Please I ask of you, as Moderator, to consider the feelings of others in your comments. I gave some thought to closing this, But I understand our users needs also. So Please be considerate of others in your expressions about this.

Mahalo

 

[Montanan]

Whenever I see threads like this -- and there are sure a lot of them -- I end up being more than a little appalled by some of the vitriol. The driver of that car definitely made a tragic mistake and caused needless deaths, but that doesn't mean that he shouldn't be mourned.

And I think it's important to remember this: though some of us may deny it, I have absolutely no doubt that every single one of us has done any number of things in our lives that were impulsive enough and stupid enough that they could have gotten us killed ... but we ended up being lucky. I suppose it's easy to forget that, though, when there's a rush to be self-righteous.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Aloha
These incidents cause tremendous passions over these incidents. Please I ask of you, as Moderator, to consider the feelings of others in your comments. I gave some thought to closing this, But I understand our users needs also. So Please be considerate of others in your expressions about this.

Mahalo

I'm not sure about this - do we really "need" to discuss the death of someone we don't know and never met? Do we need to decide whether this unknown person's death is actually "tragic" or not? When we discuss death and whether a particular death was good or bad, warranted or unwarranted, I think we've gone far beyond the scope of passenger rail travel.

My thought is that the real underlying issue, at least on this forum, is always this: the safety of rail crossings. Are we needlessly killing people every year because of unsafe crossings that should be eliminated wherever possible, or do we live in a "nanny state" that overprotects its citizens from threats that any reasonable person would be able to avoid? That's a real rail-related issue, and I personally think it would be great if people who wanted to discuss that issue could do so without drawing real, dead human beings into it every time there's a death at a rail crossing.

Two thoughts:

1) Make "rail crossings" a sticky. Every time somebody dies at a rail crossing, those who wish to discuss it can do so there.

2) Create a "dead horse" section of the forum. I've seen this in other forums, where it is used to post issues that always stir up the same arguments and never end up getting resolved.

 

[JSmith]

Apologies for starting an emotionally-charged thread. I thought it was newsworthy, but in retrospect perhaps there is not much productive discussion that can come out of it.

Grade crossings are a tricky issue, and will become trickier as passenger rail speeds in more places increase to 110 mph and beyond. It would be very expensive to separate at all crossings, and even then you have issues with people crossing on foot or walking along the track. Regarding the "nanny state" issue, I've read a bit of the history of when freight and passenger rail crisscrossed my city at grade-level, and plenty of "reasonable" people were maimed and killed in collisions back then. I understand the tension with government overprotectiveness, but I don't know that I'd prefer to live back then.

Still, rail-related deaths are so rare compared to automobile-related ones (search for the "Dangerous By Design" study) that perhaps rail safety should not exactly be the priority of investment and improvements. (But I guess that's a whole other issue!)

 

[George Harris]

Rail accidents tend to get play in the national news, but road accidents do not. This results in the perception of the dangers of rail which is far out of proportion from the reality. If you notice, frequently a multiple year time frame is used with rail accidents which serves to make the numbers of accidents/deaths look bigger. Convert any numbers you see to a per year basis and compare to road accidents and you will see that the rail accidents are insignificantly small compared to those on the road.